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Detachment and suffering

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I would rather not divulge what I am going through or what I fear is up ahead, I just want to talk about detachment and suffering. One reason I do not want to go into any details is because what people say very often only makes me feel worse and I cannot afford to feel any worse since I am walking a tightrope right now. I kindly ask you not to offer any religious platitudes about how suffering is good for us, as that is the very last thing I need. If you cannot help yourself, please do not reply to this thread.

Some believers claim that detachment is the way to reduce or eliminate suffering, that is a Buddhist as well as a Baha’i belief, but what does one do when they cannot detach from a situation since it involves another person who depends upon them, a person that they care about? I am trying to be detached from the situation but when does it become selfish to detach from the other person who is the source of my suffering, just to reduce my own suffering?

I feel like I want to die whenever I stop to think so I am staying as busy as possible so I won’t have time to think If I did not believe in God and the afterlife, I would probably kill myself before having to go through what is up ahead. This will probably be the most difficult test I have even endured in my life. If only I could be selfish and only care about myself this would not be that difficult, but I have never been one to think about my personal happiness.

When there is nobody left to turn to and no other hope, God is all I have. God is working overtime listening to my constant prayers just so I can stay afloat. I am asking God for guidance and assistance getting through this. God knows I would like to see a miracle but I am trying to believe that whatever happens is God’s will and I am 'trying' to accept that.

At a cardiac rehab (exercise class, carefully monitored by nurses), I met a woman estranged from her bratty daughter. She had terminal (4th stage) inoperable cancer, and had suffered heart attacks as part of the condition. The daughter could see that her mother was dying, and could not bear to watch. This is why she took every opportunity to insult her mother, hoping to drive a wedge between them. She felt that if she hadn't loved her mother so much, watching her die a horrible and painful death would not be as painful. This is why the daughter tried so very hard to be as mean as possible.

The mother, on the other hand, felt that her time on earth was severely shortened, so wanted her daughter with her every moment. But it was boring and painful to watch as her mom went to exercise classes.

I felt like intervening and explaining to the daughter that she should try to be kind to her mother in her final days, but I was not certain what to do.

The urge to die is understandable, if there is no way out but death and death looms in your immediate future.

My new cancer doctor was shocked that the old cancer doctor did nothing for me for 4 month. He didn't even biopsy the cancer to see what we were dealing with. My new cancer doctor told me that if the two inch diameter cancer isn't immediately taken out, it could turn into a higher stage of cancer and kill me. I told a hospital social worker that I would have to kill myself if I got 4th stage cancer because death would be imminent, and I would have nothing in my future but pain and constant operations before dying a horrible death.

Unfortunately, my hospital social worker was a Catholic, and she imposed her will and her God and her bible and her beliefs upon me. In her religion, one doesn't commit suicide. So, she had be locked up.

Since then, following changes in the law in Oregon, where they now have assisted suicide, California also passed a law that people with "certain" terminal illnesses may terminate their own lives.

My life is mine. My decisions about life are my decisions. My religion is mine. No one should have the right to impose their religious views on me. The Constitution guarantees that the government must not allow one religion to dictate to another.

I can understand that some people get temporarily depressed and kill themselves. But, there are a huge number of people who have no choice but to eventually die, and many would like to get it over painlessly.

A horrible scenario is to get so sick that you cannot move out of a hospital bed, and you are a captive patient who would like to kill himself, but cannot get access to the means to commit suicide.

I agree that suicide is a very difficult decision.

I agree that we must consider the feelings of others. The hardest thing that I did was tell my loved ones that I would likely die of cancer (or suicide). The ones who truly loved me burst into tears. It was a wonderful test of those who didn't give a damn. My sister taunted me, and said that I was faking it. Then she heaped upon me a great deal of problems, by telling lies about me and motivating others to hate me. She is a devout theists (but she obviously doesn't understand what God wants).

Once you get to the stage that God is all you have, you then wonder why God wants to torture you. Then you realize that God either doesn't exist, or He isn't the loving God that everyone thinks. Now you don't even have God. It is you against the world, and death is imminent.

Some die without realizing that the end is near.

Others have time to prepare. We could buy a cheap casket, make instructions about burial or cremation, we could make wills or trusts (and hope that crazy judges in today's mixed up world don't take away our ability to make wills and trusts). We could type letters to the court explaining that we are not crazy, we are just dying, and our wills should stand as legal documents, and courts should not have the right to alter the terms of our wills and trusts. We have time, when we know that we are dying, to tell our loved ones that we love them. But, some wonder if it is better to die without letting others know, because it will only upset them.

Some are leaving a financial burden as they die. Hospitals might keep us alive with heart-lung machines even if there is no chance of us living (or not being mentallly retarded or paralyzed). Some want to die to keep hospitals from draining our entire estates. We are enough of a burden to our loved ones without sapping out the last of our assets (house, bank) as we pay hospital bills.

Our crazy probate courts allow conservators to destroy our estates. In Orange County, a probate case was heard that did exactly that. They did it to a former probate judge. In her old age, after her husband died, she had a sizable estate, a house all paid off, a sizable bank account, and was going to be happily married to a man many years younger than she was. She said that she didn't want to just rot away in old age, but wanted someone to be with, and wanted to travel the world and see the sights. The court saw it differently, since she chose her new husband rather quickly. The courts had appointed a conservator to handle her money. The conservator bled her dry of money. The conservator was supposed to be paid $600 to stand in her house when a new refrigerator arrived. She didn't bother. Instead, she had the delivery company deliver the new refrigerator, and she kept the $600 fee for doing nothing at all. Soon, this retired probate judge's estate was mired deeply in debt, and she was institutionalized, unable to escape and unable to access any of her vast and dwindling estate.

The government is like a crazy nanny, it tells us what to do, though we are perfectly sane and capable of handling our own affairs. The government doesn't really care about us, so, though they see that unscrupulous felons are ripping off estates of the elderly (with the authority of the courts), they do nothing to stop them.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
@Truthseeker

Now that the cat is out of the bag, I think I ill post to you about this here instead of in the conversation. I was going to eat dinner but then I thought of one more thing.... This is awful, so maybe people who are sensitive might not want to read on.

When Lewis was wheeled out of surgery at the outpatient surgery center he was crying and saying he was afraid and he did not want to be alone, and I told him he will not be alone because there are all these nice doctors and nurses who care about him... Then he went off on the stretcher in the ambulance to the hospital and he has not been alone since...

I have not seen him since and I might never see him again. I hope he is happy now that he has all these medical staff doting on him and waiting on him and and foot. Now I am the one who is alone and may be for the rest of my life.

Lewis thinks the doctors care about him, telling him to give up on treatment and go to hospice, he is so naive. I am the only person in the world who ever cared about him and now he has thrown me away like an old pair of shoes. :coldsweat: He knows I would take care of him at home until he dies, that I would never abandon him, but he would rather go to hospice and live the remaining time he has left with complete strangers. :cry: The question is why do I still care about him?

He wants to go to hospice because he does not want to live and he thinks I would make him seek treatment. I only wish someone cared that much about me if I had cancer.

Now I am going to try to eat and try to go to bed.

When I was in the waiting room of cardiac emergency, two staff members made it a point to tell the waiting relatives that they didn't give a damn about the patients.

Primary care doctors at Kaiser Permanente have about 5,000 patients (not like the old days when they knew each patient).

"thrown me away like an old pair of shoes".....He is rejecting you to save you from feeling horrible as he dies. He really does still love you.

"why do I still care" Because you love him.

In cancer wards, my faith in humanity is restored. I see lovers (perhaps age 90), still looking into each others eyes with love, and still sticking by them, though they will have to empty a lot of bed pans and clean their house. Old age is a lot of work (hard for the dying and the living ones).

Christians would say "I will pray for you." But will they empty a bed pan or bring you food that they cooked? Just how much would they put themselves out?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
:( Sad to hear that TB. You are a good person and you are ready to be there for your husband. It hurts that he is refusing this and only cares about himself...

I will remember you in prayer. I still pray despite being at odds with God/faith. I hope someone/something will alleviate your suffering. Maybe the words of Serenity Prayer will help:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.

Take care!

I don't think that her husband cares only about himself. Rather, I believe that her husband is choosing a hospice care in order to take the burden off of her. It looks like rejection, but it is really him being gallant.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
I would rather not divulge what I am going through or what I fear is up ahead, I just want to talk about detachment and suffering. One reason I do not want to go into any details is because what people say very often only makes me feel worse and I cannot afford to feel any worse since I am walking a tightrope right now. I kindly ask you not to offer any religious platitudes about how suffering is good for us, as that is the very last thing I need. If you cannot help yourself, please do not reply to this thread.

Some believers claim that detachment is the way to reduce or eliminate suffering, that is a Buddhist as well as a Baha’i belief, but what does one do when they cannot detach from a situation since it involves another person who depends upon them, a person that they care about? I am trying to be detached from the situation but when does it become selfish to detach from the other person who is the source of my suffering, just to reduce my own suffering?

I feel like I want to die whenever I stop to think so I am staying as busy as possible so I won’t have time to think If I did not believe in God and the afterlife, I would probably kill myself before having to go through what is up ahead. This will probably be the most difficult test I have even endured in my life. If only I could be selfish and only care about myself this would not be that difficult, but I have never been one to think about my personal happiness.

When there is nobody left to turn to and no other hope, God is all I have. God is working overtime listening to my constant prayers just so I can stay afloat. I am asking God for guidance and assistance getting through this. God knows I would like to see a miracle but I am trying to believe that whatever happens is God’s will and I am 'trying' to accept that.

Sorry to hear about your tribulations.

When eastern philosophies speak of detachment, they are not speaking of detaching oneself from situations, but being in a state in which one is still engaged in the world (given they are not sanyasi), but have no attachment, desire, or interest in the outcome. This comes through years of practice and becoming stable in this state.

That said, I've said many times on this board that pain is a condition of life...of being alive. Pain will come. It's how one reacts to that pain that determines if one will suffer.

Buddhism speaks of two arrows. When adversity comes, two arrows fly in our direction. Being struck by an arrow is painful. What determines suffering is how one reacts to being struck. One can focus on the pain of that first arrow and remain ignorant of the trajectory of the second, and be struck again which leads to suffering, or one can be aware that the pain of the first arrow is what it is, and shift focus to being aware that a second arrow is approaching and get out of the way.

The moral of the story is that you can focus on what is bringing you distress, or you can accept that what is causing pain is temporary and will run its course, do your best to navigate through, focus on the big picture, and have gratitude that which is in the world that brings you contentment.

Pain is inevitable...suffering is optional.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I guess now is as good a time as any to stop being so mysterious and since you are still my favorite atheist, I trust you with my feelings...

This person is my husband of 37 years who has Stage IV bladder cancer. He had been sickly for a long time but nobody had any idea that it was cancer and it was misdiagnosed and mismanaged by the doctors. There will be a lawsuit if that is determined by the law firms that I have a case but now is not the time to be filing lawsuits.

My husband could try to fight this cancer by getting any available treatments, and since we live close to Seattle we are near one of the best cancer treatment centers in the country, but he has chosen not to fight. He is in the hospital 30 miles north of here and I have not seen him since his admission on July 5. He does not care about me and the suffering I will have to endure after he dies, he only cares about himself and not being in pain, but the pain he has is only bladder spasms and it is nothing like the real cancer pain many cancer patients have to endure.

It is not as if we have had a loving relationship. We have been living like roommates who barely get along for over 20 years, but he is still my husband and I still love him even though he does not care about me. I have taken care of him for 37 years and although he worked for 23 of those years, he did nothing else. I took care of everything.

We never had any children so I have no grandchildren and I have no other family left except one older brother who lives in Colorado, but he does not care about me either. He had not called me in years and about a week ago he finally called me for another reason at which time he found out about my husband. All he did was listen and at the end of the phone call he nonchalantly said "Let me know if Lewis dies." I have told that to many people, complete strangers, and they cannot believe a brother could be that insensitive and uncaring. I get more support and love from the cats.

People just assume that everyone has someone, friends or family, but such is not always the case and it is very hurtful when people assume that although I know it isn't their fault. Some Baha'is in the Baha'i community where I live have expressed some concern and desire to help but they do not really want to be bothered by this so they are not really there to help, especially when I carry on about God. I am in essence completely alone except for my counselor and the people on this forum.

Cancer is a scourge. I cannot understand why a loving God would allow such a disease to destroy the lives of so many people, which is one reason why I do not believe God is loving. However, I still cry out to God because I believe God is all-powerful, so He is the only entity that can help me at this point. The way I feel does not make sense to most people, believers or atheists, because they would not believe in a God they felt this way about, but I stayed with my husband too, in spite of him not being loving.

For years, I have known that my husband does not care about me because he never did anything but say "I care" but now that other people are involved in his care they have seen it, as it is right out in the open for all to see. When the doctor at the hospital gave him alternatives for where he wants to go after he gets out of the hospital and suggested Hospice House in the city where the hospital is 30 miles north of here, he said that he would like to go there because he does not want to go home, since he is afraid he will be in pain again, but he could have the same pain medications at home as in the hospice facility.

After 37 years that I care for him he has not even called me from the hospital and he does not care if he ever sees me again, all he cares about is himself and his physical pain. I do not really want him at home but I was willing to care for him with the help of visiting nurses. Right now I just want to forget I ever married him, but that won't be easy. I should add that I do not depends upon him for anything so I don't need him the way he needed me. I will have the same income after he dies and the three houses paid in full and more than the equivalent in stocks and bonds and money in the bank. I am fully self-sufficient. There is a part of me that wants a new life perhaps with someone else but there is a part of me who wants to live alone for the rest of my life.

I should also mention another reason he does not care if he dies, because he believes in an afterlife that is going to be so glorious, and he'd rather be there than here. This is what religious beliefs do to people. I also believe in an afterlife but it won't necessarily be glorious for him when he dies and realizes all the suffering he put me through and how I am suffering now. But God is all-merciful even if that is not just. In Baha'i parlance it is said that God's mercy exceeds His justice. Something is wrong with that, but who doesn't want mercy, even if they don't deserve it?
I just want to make it completely clear that, this is obviously based on my very limited knowledge about your situation, so if something doesn't feel or seem right for your current situation, that is most likely why, so it is purely based on what you have told me earlier and what you write here, mixed with my own interpretation. :)

I think it might be ok for you to maybe get an objective point of view on it, because when you are experiencing something like this, things might not see or you might not notice things as clear as when not standing in the middle of it. So when I say that it might not be as bad as you think, I don't mean the general situation, that is obviously not good.

But since I don't know your husbands perspective and only yours and what you are writing. I think, you have to maybe take a step back and try to look at things, a bit differently, and maybe take the bull by the horns so to speak. Because to me, it sounds like you two haven't really talked with each other for a long time, and I mean "really" talked.

So if I were you, I would go see him and simply put it to him straight and ask him if he is interested in you coming by and visiting him or essentially having any further contact with you or if he would rather be left alone, making sure whether he have made up his mind about the situation etc. Said in another way, get some sort of closure or final conclusion.

You said that you don't have many people in your life, which is obviously not fun, but it is not something which can't be solved. And from how I understand it, your husband, despite you two might not have been getting along the best, he at least gave you someone. Which I could imagine is probably also why you feel down at the moment. But on the other side, again based on what you have told, maybe there weren't really a lot in the first place? If you care to be around other people, you want to be around people which you enjoy being around and makes you feel good etc. But it doesn't seem like this relationship have really offered that, but is more based on the fear of being alone, so you accept a lot of the bad things that comes with it.

Now I personally like being alone, I hate having people around me all the time, I don't like going on long vacations and I get bored of spending to much time around others fairly fast. Not everyone have it like that, but I know plenty of people that live alone, including people which have no children etc. and are very happy about it, because it gives freedom. I even know, yet one of them is dead now, people that were married, but didn't live together, so they had separate apartments, but whenever there were parties etc. they showed up as couple and did things together as you would expect married people to do and it worked well for them.

So in your case, since you have the Bahai community or it might not even have anything to do with them, what you could do, is maybe join a group to learn to cook, gardening, paint, writing, singing, gospel if that is a Bahai thing, something with cats, whatever you think could be fun and then meet new people through that. And if you are lucky you could make some new friends.
Alternatively, you could do charity work, maybe if there is something in the community that you don't like or you know could use some help, you could start an event to do something about it and maybe some will join you, maybe from the Bahai community or just some evil atheists :D and you can meet people like that. And lets be honest, there might very well be other people in similar situations which are also looking for someone to hang out with. So I wouldn't be so down about it, because there is a lot you can do fairly easy if you want to meet people and feel that is very important.

But to me, if I were you, I wouldn't spend so much time of what went wrong between you and your husband, that is what it is, and again it might sound easier than it is, but I would try to get some form of closure, you don't have to break all contact with him unless he say that this is what he want. But I don't think you will win anything from trying to keep on to something, which might not even have been there in the first place, which might only give you a "false" sense of it being there.

So it might be good for you, to sit down and just try to take a step back from everything and look at it from a wider objective perspective, and try to put your personal feelings to the side for a moment and look at what options are there and simply realize that there are certain things you just have to accept for what they are, whether that is your husband's choice, that your brother might not be very nice, I mean you are not forced to keep contact with him or put anything into it. Because again, I don't think you would have a hard time finding some people to hang out with, that are looking for the same thing as you and as you said you are already used to taking care of everything, so at least that doesn't change.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
I would rather not divulge what I am going through or what I fear is up ahead, I just want to talk about detachment and suffering. One reason I do not want to go into any details is because what people say very often only makes me feel worse and I cannot afford to feel any worse since I am walking a tightrope right now. I kindly ask you not to offer any religious platitudes about how suffering is good for us, as that is the very last thing I need. If you cannot help yourself, please do not reply to this thread.

Some believers claim that detachment is the way to reduce or eliminate suffering, that is a Buddhist as well as a Baha’i belief, but what does one do when they cannot detach from a situation since it involves another person who depends upon them, a person that they care about? I am trying to be detached from the situation but when does it become selfish to detach from the other person who is the source of my suffering, just to reduce my own suffering?

I feel like I want to die whenever I stop to think so I am staying as busy as possible so I won’t have time to think If I did not believe in God and the afterlife, I would probably kill myself before having to go through what is up ahead. This will probably be the most difficult test I have even endured in my life. If only I could be selfish and only care about myself this would not be that difficult, but I have never been one to think about my personal happiness.

When there is nobody left to turn to and no other hope, God is all I have. God is working overtime listening to my constant prayers just so I can stay afloat. I am asking God for guidance and assistance getting through this. God knows I would like to see a miracle but I am trying to believe that whatever happens is God’s will and I am 'trying' to accept that.

I am so sorry you're going through this. How hard on so many levels. We are here for you.

The detachment part, I think, is not getting emotionally invested in the situation. Being there and dealing with it, but knowing that this is going to change. Things always change. Live in the moment though and know that even though emotionally you are going through hell, that you are alive and okay.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Some believers claim that detachment is the way to reduce or eliminate suffering, that is a Buddhist as well as a Baha’i belief, but what does one do when they cannot detach from a situation since it involves another person who depends upon them, a person that they care about? I am trying to be detached from the situation but when does it become selfish to detach from the other person who is the source of my suffering, just to reduce my own suffering?

When there is nobody left to turn to and no other hope, God is all I have. God is working overtime listening to my constant prayers just so I can stay afloat.
Detachment means full attachment, keeping self in the background. One cannot detach from one's duties. If you are trying to do your duty earnestly, then what more can you do? Why should one suffer or feel depressed? Surely, you do not have control over all variables. Say Inshallah.

Since I am an atheist, a non-believer in existence of God. So I would not expand on that. You know my views perfectly well.
 
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Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
You are a lot nicer than me. I can be very nice but when hurt and when facing an injustice I can be very angry and harsh.
My attitude towards Lewis and Khomeini is the result perhaps of the lack of "selective empathy" that an article I read about recently talked about that those on the autism spectrum have. I feel that Lewis hurts himself more than you, and Khomeini hurt himself more than the Baha'is he persecuted. I feel some anger against them, also. It is complex.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
He wants to go to hospice because he does not want to live and he thinks I would make him seek treatment. I only wish someone cared that much about me if I had cancer.
I would care that much. I believe I would care more. I don't want to lose you. Though death might be a welcome relief for you from this life, I would be cut off from you. It is maybe selfish for me to feel that way.
Lewis thinks the doctors care about him, telling him to give up on treatment and go to hospice, he is so naive.
Treatment to keep someone alive can be a painful prolongation of life. Why live a litle longer if that that longer life on this plane of existence is hard to bear? However, in my remoteness from his situation, I don't know how painful it would be for him.

Kathleen, the wife of Dale Lehman decided it was best to stop fighting against death, and live her final days with her beloved husband. Unfortunately, Lewis seems to not love you, and is doing the same away from you.:(
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
But you know that I am afraid of death and some of the reasons why. Something I never told you is that I project the misery of this life onto the next life and imagine living like that for all of eternity. :eek: I do hope God has mercy on my soul.
You have told me before that you project the misery of this life into the next. I don't believe that misey will continue in the next life, but I would still mourn your passing, because I would miss you a lot.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My attitude towards Lewis and Khomeini is the result perhaps of the lack of "selective empathy" that an article I read about recently talked about that those on the autism spectrum have. I feel that Lewis hurts himself more than you, and Khomeini hurt himself more than the Baha'is he persecuted. I feel some anger against them, also. It is complex.
Who is Khomeini?

With all due respect Duane, I think you are highly intelligent and I appreciate your analyses, but you cannot understand people by reading and learning from articles you find online.

I do not think that Lewis hurts himself more than he hurts me. The reason I don't think that is because I think he has no feelings for anyone, including himself, me, or anyone else. That is why he acts selfishly without understanding how much that might hurt me.

A psychologist told him over 30 years ago that he had shut his feelings down and was just numb. That has never really changed despite counseling he got later and attendance at support groups where people share their feelings.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I would care that much. I believe I would care more. I don't want to lose you. Though death might be a welcome relief for you from this life, I would be cut off from you. It is maybe selfish for me to feel that way.
Why does death have to be a 'welcome relief' from this life, unless one is suffering in this life?
Let's get real. Having a few bladder spasms for which he has pain medication is not really suffering. The cancer has spread to a couple of vital organs but it is not causing any symptoms or pain, not yet anyway.

If there was a treatment that would stop the spread he might have a chance to live for years. He just does not want to live and the way I know that is because he did not want to live BEFORE he had the bladder pain. This is logic 101 stuff.

This is just an excuse to check out with the doctors' approval. The doctors do not listen to anything I say. They say that he does not want to live because of his present diagnosis and pain, but that is illogical because most cancer patients who have his diagnosis and pain seek treatment.

The doctors have no idea what his life has been like for many years. You know because I have told you. He lost the will to live long ago and I tries to help him but I couldn't because he just blew me off.
Treatment to keep someone alive can be a painful prolongation of life. Why live a little longer if that that longer life on this plane of existence is hard to bear? However, in my remoteness from his situation, I don't know how painful it would be for him.
This plane of existence? That is what it all boils down to doesn't it, your belief in the proverbial afterlife that you cannot even prove exists and know nothing about. You imagine there is a better life coming, just like all Baha'is. I get tired of listening to this, but you will still always be my bff.

Yes, treatment can be painful, but it is the fallacy of hasty generalization to say that it is always painful. Lewis is now getting targeted radiation to the bladder and there is no pain. He will get 10 treatments and the goal is to stop the bleeding so they can remove the catheter and bladder irrigation. He could get targeted radiation to the other organs where the cancer has spread. He does not have to get chemo.
Kathleen, the wife of Dale Lehman decided it was best to stop fighting against death, and live her final days with her beloved husband. Unfortunately, Lewis seems to not love you, and is doing the same away from you.:(
I do not know the details of her illness but I do know she has been fighting for years. Lewis has not even been fighting at all. Do you see the difference? Lewis refuses to fight at all. He is the coward that Abdu'l-Baha spoke of in this passage:

TRIALS A GIFT FROM GOD
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You have told me before that you project the misery of this life into the next. I don't believe that misery will continue in the next life, but I would still mourn your passing, because I would miss you a lot.
You don't believe it will but you do not know it won't...
Nobody knows anything about the next life, they just believe it will be what they hope for.

By the way, it is in the Baha'i Writings that we are not supposed to be thinking about the next life but rather we are supposed to live in this life and do what we have been enjoined to do.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Lewis refuses to fight at all. He is the coward that Abdu'l-Baha spoke of in this passage:

TRIALS A GIFT FROM GOD

I feel compelled to offer comfort to Lewis Susan, as this comment was made in the public forum.

Consider this.

"..One evening, an elderly Cherokee brave told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.

He said "my son, the battle is between two 'wolves' inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

The other is good. It is joy, peace love, hope serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The grandson though about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather:

"Which wolf wins?..."

The old Cherokee simply replied, "the one that you feed"

The Nanticoke Indian Tribe, http://www.nanticokeindians.org/tale_of_two_wolves

May it all work out for both of you. Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
At a cardiac rehab (exercise class, carefully monitored by nurses), I met a woman estranged from her bratty daughter. She had terminal (4th stage) inoperable cancer, and had suffered heart attacks as part of the condition. The daughter could see that her mother was dying, and could not bear to watch. This is why she took every opportunity to insult her mother, hoping to drive a wedge between them. She felt that if she hadn't loved her mother so much, watching her die a horrible and painful death would not be as painful. This is why the daughter tried so very hard to be as mean as possible.
If that is what happened it could have been a psychological defense mechanism. I know all about psychology since I have a MA in psychology. A person wants to hate the person they love so they won't feel the pain of loss. I know, because I have done it. The hundred-dollar difference between me and that daughter is that I did not spew hate at my husband but rather I have tried to take care of him and did everything I could for him and I want what is in his best interest. I want him to have a chance to live, but if he has no will to live I cannot make him want to live. His lack of will to live dates back before the cancer diagnosis so that is not the only reason.

I do think it is selfish that he does not think of me and how this affects me. The definition is selfish is only thinking about oneself.
The mother, on the other hand, felt that her time on earth was severely shortened, so wanted her daughter with her every moment. But it was boring and painful to watch as her mom went to exercise classes.
There is a big difference between my situation and the one you are describing. Now that my husband knows his life will be shortened he does not even care about talking to me on the phone, let alone seeing me! Do you know how much that hurts? Why should I be kind to someone who treats me this way?

What I have decided to do is just not contact him. He has a phone so he can call me if he wants to talk to me. He is not that sick that he cannot call me and talk on the phone. His vital signs have been completely normal and stable throughout all of this. I do not want to talk to him because I cannot afford to be hurt anymore and since he does not call me I assume he does not want to talk to me.
The urge to die is understandable, if there is no way out but death and death looms in your immediate future.
I understand that but my husband is not at that point yet. He has refused to eat or get out of bed in order to hasten his own demise, He was doing this at home long before the cancer diagnosis. It is because he won't eat or get out of bed that he is so weak and cannot have chemo, since he is too weak and frail, so he has made his choice.

The believers' belief in the afterlife is a pall. They 'believe' that are going to "a better place" so they have no desire to fight for their life.
Once you get to the stage that God is all you have, you then wonder why God wants to torture you. Then you realize that God either doesn't exist, or He isn't the loving God that everyone thinks. Now you don't even have God. It is you against the world, and death is imminent.
I am so sorry for your pain and anguish. I can only understand it by your words, not from experience, since I never experienced any physical disease and I am very healthy. However, I am an empath so I feel peoples' pain. I wonder why God allows such suffering and I cannot believe God is loving. I have tried to believe that but I just can't, not with all the suffering in this world.

I still turn to God and pray constantly, even though I do not believe God is loving, because I believe God is all-powerful so He is the only hope I have. I also believe that whatever happens will be God's will and God has our best interests in mind. However, here is the caveat. God honors free will so even if there was hope for my husband God is not going to intervene and make my husband want to live. God might intervene and help if my husband prayed, but my husband does not pray anymore. I have prayed to God that he will help my husband see what he is doing, but I don't think there is much hope. I pray for a miracle because I believe in miracles. I never prayed for a miracle before, even though I have lost upwards of 30 cats to horrific deaths in the last 20 years.

I might be able to convince my husband to accept treatment for the cancer but I cannot make him eat and do what is necessary to qualify for chemo. He is now getting radiation to his bladder to stop the bleeding and that does not hurt or require that he is strong. He has only had one of 10 radiation treatments so we will see how that goes. I cannot think of what will happen after that, I can only live one day at a time.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Who is Khomeini?
Ayatollah Khomeini, who led the revolution in Iran in 1979.
I do not think that Lewis hurts himself more than he hurts me. The reason I don't think that is because I think he has no feelings for anyone, including himself, me, or anyone else. That is why he acts selfishly without understanding how much that might hurt me.
He would be hurt himself less actually, in my estimation, if he had bad feelings for people he hurt. That means to me that he is dead emotionally, relatively speaking, and that is really bad.
A psychologist told him over 30 years ago that he had shut his feelings down and was just numb. That has never really changed despite counseling he got later and attendance at support groups where people share their feelings.
Well, we cannot know how much he himself is responsible for that. Then, is he selfish, or numb in his feelings? I can only go from what you tell me, anyway.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
When I was in the waiting room of cardiac emergency, two staff members made it a point to tell the waiting relatives that they didn't give a damn about the patients.

Primary care doctors at Kaiser Permanente have about 5,000 patients (not like the old days when they knew each patient).
Yes, I know because that is the health insurance I have. They are looking a big lawsuit for misdiagnosis and mismanagement of his case if my husband dies. I have already contacted two law firms.
"thrown me away like an old pair of shoes".....He is rejecting you to save you from feeling horrible as he dies. He really does still love you.
No, I know my husband and I absolutely do not think that is what he is doing. He is not rejecting me at all, he is just ignoring me because he does not care about me. He does not care how horrible I will feel when he dies. He is selfish.
"why do I still care" Because you love him.
What is love? My friend @Truthseeker says it is caring. I care about him but he does not care about me. I do not know if I love him or if he loves me. Both of us have issues loving people because were were not loved by our parents.
In cancer wards, my faith in humanity is restored. I see lovers (perhaps age 90), still looking into each others eyes with love, and still sticking by them, though they will have to empty a lot of bed pans and clean their house. Old age is a lot of work (hard for the dying and the living ones).
That is what happens when there is mutual love. Our marriage ended over 20 years ago and we only stayed together for convenience. I could have divorced him but I had no desire to remarry so we just stayed together. We have common interests, the cats and our religion, but as time went on he lost interest in both of those.
Christians would say "I will pray for you." But will they empty a bed pan or bring you food that they cooked? Just how much would they put themselves out?
You have a valid point. Most people,are selfish and religion does not change thatt. It is the same with the Baha'is. "I will pray for you." as if that is going to do any good.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I will remember you in prayer. I still pray despite being at odds with God/faith. I hope someone/something will alleviate your suffering.
I have found a kindred spirit in you and for that I am grateful. :)
Like you, I still pray despite being at odds with God and faith.
Maybe we both know deep down that God is there for us in spite of our doubts.
Maybe the words of Serenity Prayer will help:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.
Thanks for reminding me of that prayer. That prayer is a big favorite of mine since I attended 12 step programs for many years back in the 80s and 90s.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He would be hurt himself less actually, in my estimation, if he had bad feelings for people he hurt. That means to me that he is dead emotionally, relatively speaking, and that is really bad.
I really think that is it, he is dead emotionally. I do not think he has any bad feelings for me, just no feelings.
Well, we cannot know how much he himself is responsible for that. Then, is he selfish, or numb in his feelings? I can only go from what you tell me, anyway.
I do not pretend to know how much he himself is responsible for, which would be a spiritual condition, or how much is because he has a psychological condition. I have never known what he is thinking or feeling and it is painful to not know.

For now, the only way I can cope is to detach from him. He can call me if he wants to, otherwise I will assume he does not want to talk to me. If he is thinking of e at all, he is probably thinking that I just got too busy to call, he is so out of it, so out of touch with reality. I cannot understand how the psychiatrist deemed him competent to make his own decisions. He thinks like a small child, not an adult.
 
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