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Did Adam and Eve and animals have genitals before the fall?

Monty

Active Member
Yes, you have a point. There are a number of things wrong with the Israelites creation story.

* The "crafty beast" was already fallen, already sinful BEFORE Eve was seduced into going against Gods instructions for the pair.

* Adam and Eve arrived on earth as full-grown adults, educated and speaking the language of the beast. When the legend of Adam was appropriated by the Israelites into their story of origins, they just assumed Adam was the first human. They didn't know anything about evolution or the rest of the inhabited world.

* When Cain leaves the second garden he fears people out in the world. The earth was already populated and as we know now through scientific inquiry, quite old and populated by humans at least 1,000,000 years ago.

* Yes, the earth would be quite crowded if death was introduced by sin. Death came specifically o Adam and Eve (they could no longer eat of the tree of life and live indefinatly). death or translation is normal form man.
And Cainan/Cain was protected from retribution by his god after killing his brother (Gen 4:15). Likewise Noah's father was also protected from retribution after he killed a young man (Gen 4:23-24).

And Noah's brothers, Jabal and Jubal, and their families were not drowned with the rest of Noah's family since they are the fathers of all tent dwellers and herders and musical instrument makers and were living outside the flooded area (Gen 4:20-21), and perhaps ate olives from the olive trees growing outside the flooded area (Gen 8:11).
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Obviously the "years" listed in the Gen 5 geneology were lunar cycles of ~30 days which are more easily observed than solar cycles of ~365 days. Thus Adam's partner first became pregnant at aged ~11 years old, and not an absurd 130 "years" (Gen 5:3).

You're still ignoring Gen 4. Why is that?

And counting the years is irrelevant to the story since they were not formed as infants in Gen 2.

And Noah's grandfather was drowned at aged ~80 years old and not a ridiculous 969 "years" (Gen 5:27), and Noah's sister Naamah gave birth to triplets aged ~40 years old and not a silly 500 "years" (Gen 5:32).

The Gen 5 genealogy includes the Gen 4 genealogy with minor changes in spelling and order. Thus Cainan=Cain, Mahalalel=Mehujael, Jared=Irad, Enoch=Enoch, Methuselah=Methusael, Lamech=Lamech. Therefore the "Adam" in the Gen 5 genealogy was the grandfather of the Gen 4 "Adam" (Enosh).

If there is something here that is relelvant to the topic, please let me know, and I will reply in that context.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Before Sin, there was no death. If Adam and Eve and the animals had genitals, it would only a matter of time before reproduction would cause Earth to became over populated had nobody sinned. Am I missing something here?
The tree of life is connected to natural instinct, which as evolution describes, is engrained into the DNA of each species, over a long period of time. The natural or genetic based operating system of the natural brain has instinct at birth. This type of knowledge comes from within each critter. You do not have to teach a cat to be a cat or a dog to be a dog.

The tree of knowledge is different in that this type of knowledge is taught from the outside, such as by teachers in school, via cultural traditions, via marketers, via fake news, etc. Unlike instinct that was naturally selected and engrained into the brain through eons of evolution, the outside knowledge is engrained through man made selection, will and choice. This type of knowledge is often temporal to each generation and often defines a generation. This is different from natural instinct that is slow to change and lingers in time. There are two different time scales.

Science can show that the invention of written language occurred about 5000-6000 years ago. This invention was critical to the formation of permanent civilization. The Bible says, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God." God may have been the first written word, just as the Bible was the first published book using the printing press to get exact duplicates. My guess is the word for sound God, was broken down into the first few letters, and then other spoken words were scaled from these, to form all the base sounds and symbols needed for the alphabet.

Written language altered how the human brain worked. Before written language, you had spoken language which would be forgotten or embellished over time. But once written language was invented, ideas would be carved into stone with great detail, allowing memory to be refreshed, with an exact duplicate. This long term memory schema could then compete with natural instinct, that comes from inside; collective human propensities.

The type of written language that screwed things up was knowledge of good and evil or law. It is one thing to create law with just spoken language. Memory changes as we age, allowing the natural brain to change law with time, due to everyone not being able to agree on the original intent or need, as time goes on. But once law was carved into stone, with written language, it could linger way beyond its usefulness, due to being refreshed by each generation. This caused repression and other types of psychological problems.

The analogy would be like parents making rules for their young children to keep them safe. This sound like a good thing. But say these rule were not just spoken, but written down, never to change, even as the children become adults. Now you screw up the adult children, needing even more laws to mop up the mess the original set of written laws created in the future. Death appears due to the cascade affect of becoming repressed and unnatural. If you look at holy books from various religions, these are close to the written originals. They are often rewritten into modern languages, so the original intent can be learned; relearn the childhood of the new human mind.

Other practical uses of written language, not taboo or connected to knowledge of good and evil, that were useful and needed to sustain civilization, was record keeping for commerce, plans for building cities, scientific observations of nature and the heavens, food production techniques, etc.The subjectivity of good and evil was the downfall of the new invention. It would repress the natural humans and make humans become inhuman; war due to long standing records of grudges. These old written records are still in affect in the Middle East.

The tree of life; instinct, was taken away or repressed, but not destroyed, so humans did not engrain their repressive behavior into the natural human DNA. This would have made human beasts; cruel and perverted animals prone to war and other bestial atrocity.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Adam was chosen to choose names for the animals. Thinking about names Not instinct.
Consciousness began (adam/eve). No words existed before consciousness evolved from nature. (1st man)
No instinct needed but intelligence needed in understanding Genesis 2:17
Intelligence helps to comprehend that man created the story
Even Eve understood the Law Not to eat from the forbidden tree - Gen. 3:3
What law? There was no words 'in the beginning' and the story was written to try and explain the transition.

No one was there to record the narrative.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
The Law was Not to eat from one forbidden tree. Breaking the Law carried with it the death penalty - Gen. 2:17

I am aware of the story. Just because it was written does not make it true.
If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees and said come over and have a much fruit from the trees except for one tree.
Would you consider your neighbor as not being generous because he just reserved one tree for himself.

By saying ' Do Not eat ' was as if God put up a No Trespassing sign on one tree out of all the trees on Earth.
were you there? Who recorded the conversations as written?
I could quote Gandolf ..... 'thou shall not pass'
 

Monty

Active Member
You're still ignoring Gen 4. Why is that?
The Gen 4 genealogy is also part of the Gen 5 genealogy with minor changes in the spelling and the order of the listed names.
And counting the years is irrelevant to the story since they were not formed as infants in Gen 2.
If there is something here that is relelvant to the topic, please let me know, and I will reply in that context.
The different creation stories in Gen 1 & 2 are just pure fantasies with zero credibility, given that our aborigines arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was born and that the universe is billions of years old.
And the flood which drowned most of Noah's family and their sheep and goats was just another local flood event which was 15 cubits high.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
The Gen 4 genealogy is also part of the Gen 5 genealogy with minor changes in the spelling and the order of the listed names.

Not the geneology, you seem to be ignoring the very first verse. The one where Cain is born.

The different creation stories in Gen 1 & 2 are just pure fantasies with zero credibility, given that our aborigines arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was born and that the universe is billions of years old.

So, in answer to my question about relevance you start talking about the aboriginals. I think what's written below makes a lot of sense. What do you think?

Screenshot_20231016_115736.jpg
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Adam named eve, The man gave his wife the name “Eve,” because she was the mother of all the living
Gen 3:20


Yes, that human beings are born with the reproductive parts (genitals) Just like animals etc......

Reproduction is not a sin. Never has been except to the confused. The very method of living into the next generations is to reproduce.
I never suggested reproduction was a sin, just that it might eventually become a problem if more and more are born with nobody dying.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I never suggested reproduction was a sin, just that it might eventually become a problem if more and more are born with nobody dying.
I wonder if the animals were supposed to live forever under the "original sin" theory? Some Christians believe that dinosaurs and humans lived together before the flood and that the dinosaurs were vegan until the fall.
 

Monty

Active Member
Not the geneology, you seem to be ignoring the very first verse. The one where Cain is born.
Cain(an) (Gen 4:1) was the son of Enosh (Gen 5:9) and therefore the great grandson of the Gen 5 "Adam". Or so the story goes.
So, in answer to my question about relevance you start talking about the aboriginals. I think what's written below makes a lot of sense. What do you think?

View attachment 83623
That's your opinion, but doesn't change the fact that our aboriginals arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was born, and that the universe is billions of years old
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Consciousness began (adam/eve). No words existed before consciousness evolved from nature. (1st man)
Intelligence helps to comprehend that man created the story
What law? There was no words 'in the beginning' and the story was written to try and explain the transition.
No one was there to record the narrative.
To me the angels were conscious before A&E
The Law found at Genesis 2:17
Yes, Adam was there ( Eden) to record the narrative - Genesis 5.
Adam's ' book of generations ' ( Gen 5:1 )
Noah could have easily had those writings to take on the Ark with him.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I am aware of the story. Just because it was written does not make it true.
were you there? Who recorded the conversations as written?
I could quote Gandolf ..... 'thou shall not pass'
Moses recorded with the help of God's holy spirit ( Psalm 104:30 )
Gandolf did Not write Scripture.
As far as I know ALL religions are based on writings. ( No one else on the planet besides people write )
C.E.O. aka God used assistance / secretaries as to how He wants to be worshiped .

Gandolf could Not quote creation.
Gandolf could Not observe creation and get to know the Designer of the universe, planets, nature, etc.
What would be Gandolf's primary objective.
The strong voice of Jesus taught the morality of godly love as found at Mark 12:30-34 which included the kingdom aka government of God.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Moses recorded with the help of God's holy spirit ( Psalm 104:30 )
Gandolf did Not write Scripture.
Nice facsimile, characters of the story, writing their own narrative.
As far as I know ALL religions are based on writings. ( No one else on the planet besides people write )
Correct and many stories are make believe.... perfect example: genesis (creation)
C.E.O. aka God used assistance / secretaries as to how He wants to be worshiped .
Worshiped? People write that kind of nonsense. let me play assistant: G-d wants each to know love and maintain PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY or else.
Gandolf could Not quote creation.
Gandolf did not write Lord of the rings but I recognized the best point, the character of the story cannot write the story
Gandolf could Not observe creation and get to know the Designer of the universe, planets, nature, etc.
designer? Moses did not observe creation as the story suggests but since he did claim to write torah and was born and raised in egypt, the house of pharoah, then it make sense, that he learned from the libraries of egypt and their culture.
What would be Gandolf's primary objective.
The good of mankind (middle earth)
The strong voice of Jesus taught the morality of godly love as found at Mark 12:30-34 which included the kingdom aka government of God.
OK.... the wisdom that none are perfect and each of us must learn how to forgive, makes perfect sense for the evolution of the torah belief system.

But then look at mark 10:17-19. What do you see of those 3 scriptures? Huge items, take a moment to witness for yourself.
 

Monty

Active Member
To me the angels were conscious before A&E
The Law found at Genesis 2:17
Yes, Adam was there ( Eden) to record the narrative - Genesis 5.
Adam's ' book of generations ' ( Gen 5:1 )
Noah could have easily had those writings to take on the Ark with him.
But that Adam wasn't there to record the arrival of our aboriginals over 50,000 years before his grandmother was born.
Nor was he there to record the creation of the visible universe billions of years ago.
 
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Monty

Active Member
Can anyone think of anyone righteous who went to hell _______________________
On the day Christ Jesus died righteous Jesus went to hell - Acts 2:27
Not to some religious-myth hell teaching but to the Bible's hell mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why both Jesus and the OT both teach sleep ( Not pain) in death - John 11:11-14; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
ALL of Adam was a living soul and at death ALL of Adam became a dead soul, a life-less soul or person. - Gen. 2:7
No post-mortem penalty for dead Adam, No double jeopardy in death for Adam and No one else.
The total complete asking price tag for sin is ' death ' Not death plus any thing else - Romans 6:23,7

Jesus came to Earth for us because we can't resurrect oneself or anyone else.
We needed someone who could resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Rev. 1:18
Some ( Luke 22:28-30 ) resurrected to Heaven - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10.
The majority to be resurrected back to live life on Earth with the opportunity to live forever on Earth as offered to Adam before his downfall.
What happened to the rotting corpses after they crawled out of their graves and wandered around down-town Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-53)? Did they just crawl back into their graves, or did they go elsewhere?
 

G.o.design

Member
Before Sin, there was no death. If Adam and Eve and the animals had genitals, it would only a matter of time before reproduction would cause Earth to became over populated had nobody sinned. Am I missing something here?
The forbidden fruit was the act of sexual intercourse the serpent was an aroused man with fsewn skirt made from leafs this man had skin of bark and feet bronze while eve was naked and white as the rib that made her. Adam had never been aroused so she never seen his serpent aroused. The man of earth was the spirit of god and needed to consume life to live eve was made with a soul and artificial spirit they could live forever until she consumed the spirit of god and now she to must seek life or they will die. The spirit of god will not always dwell inside man for man is of flesh and flesh will surely die.
 

Monty

Active Member
Before Sin, there was no death. If Adam and Eve and the animals had genitals, it would only a matter of time before reproduction would cause Earth to became over populated had nobody sinned. Am I missing something here?
How did the animals sin? And if not, when and why did they get genitals, or did they just evolve?
 

Monty

Active Member
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”​

So, yes.
How many gods and goddesses were at the meeting described in Gen 1:26. And presumably the male creator god created the female in the image and likeness of one of the goddesses.
 
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G.o.design

Member
Well, according to Genesis 1:
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living [e]creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the [f]firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.​
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.​
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”​

So, yes.
They wouldn't have needed to reproduce if they didn't sin. they wouldn't have had knowledge of sexual intercourse so they would have lived forever with the orginal breath of life adam had, and the artificial soul eve had. when she was made from his rib even was undead, and adam was a living soul. he only needed to consume plants to live forever without consuming flesh he wouldn't have flesh and blood you are what you eat isn't just a saying. Adam was molded from mud the dust of the ground that got wet with a mist.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Of course, there was no Fall nor Adam and Eve.

. . . but today we have Barbie and Ken. They do not need fig leaves.
 
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