Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Spiritually die does work in the above verse.
There is no reason to think it means physically die.
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Did Adam and Eve and animals have genitals before the fall?
- Thread starter Kfox
- Start date
There is no reason to think it means physically die.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Spiritually die does not work in the above verse. We know that because of the context. They shall surely die 'in the wilderness' has nothing to do with spiritual death.
Spiritually die does not work in the above verse. We know that because other verses say that no one can see God and live.
Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
No, surely die in the Bible sometimes means physical death and sometimes means spiritual death.
Physical death does not mean anyone is going to Hell. All physical bodies die eventually, at which time the soul leaves the body and takes on another form, a spiritual body. Those souls who are near to God in their heart will go to Heaven, those who are distant from God will go to Hell.
Hell is tied into disobedience to God, since God has commanded us to love Him and worship Him.
Heaven and Hell are not geographical locations, they states of the soul in the spiritual world, which has no geography.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I know that Second Death is a phrase used several times in the New Testament...
However, what Christians believe about the Second Death is nothing more than a made up Christian doctrine.
The verse says "but are not able to kill the soul." That is because the soul is immortal so it cannot die.
To destroy something means to damage it so badly that it cannot be used. That is what happens to souls that are destroyed.
The souls of those who go to Hell continue to exist but they are distant from God so in that sense they are destroyed, of no use.
The last sentence of the following passage describes what happens to souls who are destroyed. They become victims of self and passion and sink into the depths, which is Hell.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
...and since the definition of the ' second death ' is defined as the lake of fire, and since there is No life in death, then a fire can't effect death.
Sleep in death -> Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 agrees with what Jesus taught at John 11:11-14.
Plus, I find biblical hell is the grave.
On the day righteous Jesus died he went to biblical hell the grave - Acts 2:27
KJV translated the word Gehenna ( Not hell ) into English as hell fire, thus that wrongly put flames in death.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed.
Thus, Gehenna is a fitting word for destruction for the wicked - Psalms 37:38; 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; 2nd Peter 3:9
Also, there was No post-mortem penalty past death for Adam. No double jeopardy to be paid in death. - Romans 6:23,7
In the Bible the day righteous Jesus died Jesus went to geographical hell - Acts 2:27
Not to some religious myth hell, but to 'biblical hell' the located grave for the sleeping dead.- John 11:11-14
Adam went from non-life, to life, and at death Adam returned to non-life.
A person can Not return to a place he never was before.
Adam only came to life after God breathed the ' breath of life ' into lifeless Adam.
Then, Adam became a living soul and at death Adam became a dead soul, a life-less soul, a life-less person.
All of Adam simply went back to where Adam started the dust of the ground.
If we were alive at death there would be No need for a resurrection.- Acts 24:15
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no need for a bodily resurrection. The body once dead remains dead, and the spirit (soul) goes to the Kingdom of God in Heaven.
Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in Heaven. Dead bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, Heaven. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and live forever. That is what the following verses say.
1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]
Read full chapter
transform: make a thorough or dramatic change in the form, appearance, or character of.
transform means - Google Search
Yokefellow
Active Member
OK, maybe now is a good time to explain what happened to the First Adam and his wife Ishshah.
I already proved that the First Adam was created on the Third Day. I also proved that God created Ishshah first, then Eve later.
Therefore, this next verse is absolutely literal...
Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Thus, the First Adam and Ishshah died. Not once, but TWICE. They were what the Bible calls 'Twice Dead'.
They are now 'sleeping' in the dust of the Earth. The next verse is what the Bible calls, 'Resurrection of Damnation'...
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
God resurrected them with bodies of shame. They now have reproductive organs inherited by Satan and Mystery Babylon (our current Biological Parents).
That is the so called 'consummation' that @dybmh is looking for. He cannot see it yet because he would rather put this Information on ignore. Funny how God does that to some people.
The Consummation was between Satan and the Earth Mother... aka... the Harlot... aka... Earthly Jerusalem. They both produced the Zygote called 'Fruit' in this verse....
Genesis 3:6
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
Now all the Zygote needed was for either a Dybbuk or an Ibbur or perhaps a Tzadik to enter into the Zygote to make the 'marriage' complete.
Once the Spirit of the dead person enters into the Zygote, consummation is complete. <-- That is the Marriage Supper. Sperm and Ovum.
Now that the couple are reincarnated into a body of corruption, they must physically die first before partaking of the Tree of Life which has been moved to the New Heavens and New Earth.
The Flaming Sword and Cherubim is a foreshadow of the 'Heart of the Earth'... aka... the Most Holy Place of the Zygote Temple. The Body is the Temple. Get it? The Temples in the Bible are scale models of an Ovum with the High Priest as the 'Seed' entering in to fertilize it on the Day of Atonement. Yom Kippur.
The fact that everyone here is denying me the literal, plain meaning of Genesis 2:17 says much about you.
You folks are siding with the Serpent...
Genesis 3:4
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die"
God has not revealed this to you yet.
I already proved that the First Adam was created on the Third Day. I also proved that God created Ishshah first, then Eve later.
Therefore, this next verse is absolutely literal...
Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Thus, the First Adam and Ishshah died. Not once, but TWICE. They were what the Bible calls 'Twice Dead'.
They are now 'sleeping' in the dust of the Earth. The next verse is what the Bible calls, 'Resurrection of Damnation'...
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
God resurrected them with bodies of shame. They now have reproductive organs inherited by Satan and Mystery Babylon (our current Biological Parents).
That is the so called 'consummation' that @dybmh is looking for. He cannot see it yet because he would rather put this Information on ignore. Funny how God does that to some people.
The Consummation was between Satan and the Earth Mother... aka... the Harlot... aka... Earthly Jerusalem. They both produced the Zygote called 'Fruit' in this verse....
Genesis 3:6
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
Now all the Zygote needed was for either a Dybbuk or an Ibbur or perhaps a Tzadik to enter into the Zygote to make the 'marriage' complete.
Once the Spirit of the dead person enters into the Zygote, consummation is complete. <-- That is the Marriage Supper. Sperm and Ovum.
Now that the couple are reincarnated into a body of corruption, they must physically die first before partaking of the Tree of Life which has been moved to the New Heavens and New Earth.
The Flaming Sword and Cherubim is a foreshadow of the 'Heart of the Earth'... aka... the Most Holy Place of the Zygote Temple. The Body is the Temple. Get it? The Temples in the Bible are scale models of an Ovum with the High Priest as the 'Seed' entering in to fertilize it on the Day of Atonement. Yom Kippur.
The fact that everyone here is denying me the literal, plain meaning of Genesis 2:17 says much about you.
You folks are siding with the Serpent...
Genesis 3:4
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die"
God has not revealed this to you yet.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
OK, maybe now is a good time to explain that I do not believe there was ever an Adam and Eve or a Garden of Eden.
I believe the story was allegorical.
The full explanation of what I believe about the allegory is in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE
Yokefellow
Active Member
From the link...
"We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore..."
Just lol at the arrogance. In other words, because the author is too ignorant to understand the literal interpretation, God must be an idiot.
Talk about Circular Logic.
The Creation Story is about REINCARNATION! In other words, two people were disobedient, they died, and a LOVING God gave them another chance. That is literally the meaning of Salvation. Everyone is saved in the end.
The Lake of Fire is the Moment of Conception. She is Tophet, the Goddess Vesta. That is what the Bible teaches.
Tophet comes from 'Esh-Jah' the Fire of Jehovah in the Old Testament. The Everlasting Fire in the Brazen Altar...
Vesta is Hestia, the Sister of Hades. She is the 'Eternal Fire' that the Unsaved are thrown into.
Tophet is the Moment of Conception. What did Tophet look like?
The myths depicting Vesta and her priestesses were few; the most notable of them were tales of miraculous impregnation of a virgin priestess by a phallus appearing in the flames of the sacred hearth — the manifestation of the goddess combined with a male supernatural being.
Vesta (mythology) - Wikipedia
Well, what do you know? Jonah was rescued from the Pit after all.
Where are the Old Testament people? Look at what Tophet means. Wake up already.
Yokefellow
Active Member
Bahai Nonagon...
Freemason symbol of Reincarnation and Transhumanism.
Nine Gemstones of Lucifer with the Tenth Stone as Gold in the Center. The 'Golden Child'.
Freemason symbol of Reincarnation and Transhumanism.
Nine Gemstones of Lucifer with the Tenth Stone as Gold in the Center. The 'Golden Child'.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This has nothing to do with the author of that book.From the link...
"We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore..."
Just lol at the arrogance. In other words, because the author is too ignorant to understand the literal interpretation, God must be an idiot.
Talk about Circular Logic.
God did not write Genesis and neither did Moses. The Old Testament was written by fallible men.
There is no reason to believe that the Adam and Eve 'story' is a true story rather than an allegorical story.
Many of the Bible stories are allegorical.
And now I have heard everything. The Bible does not support a belief in reincarnation.
This life is the only chance we get.... There are no second chances.
No, not everyone will be Saved, which means being close to God. That is a choice people have to make.
That is not what the Bible teaches, it is what you are teaching.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Please do not misrepresent my religion with nonsense.
The rules are different in folktales.
On the contrary, I've never pretended to speak Hebrew. I've said all along that I'm reliant on respected translators. So this is about two things ─ what those translators said, and what you're pointing as meanings which they fail to convey. In particular I'm not trying to disagree with you, any more than I'm trying to disagree with the other translators.
The Latin consummo means 'to complete', 'to bring to perfection'. In this context 'consummation' was and likely in some places still is a legal term for the first copulation, which was necessary for the marriage to be recognized. You may recall various European kings having eye-witnesses to the First Bonk after the ceremony.
I respect that or I wouldn't be having this conversation.
I'm pointing to what's NOT there that you're claiming IS there. So the buck stops with you.
Yes. Clearly God misspoke ─ a charge that can't be brought against the Snake, who accurately said, "You shall not die."
Nonetheless, in misspeaking, God demonstrates that death is already in the world. Otherwise [his] threat would be meaningless to Adam and Eve.
And that spares us any need to conduct an enquiry into what Adam and Eve ate while they were in the Garden, and whether (whether animal or vegetable) it passed through the gut unable to die.
By the way, is it your view that humans were better off not knowing good from evil? It isn't mine. Although she's legendary, she should be hailed as a great and heroic benefactor of humanity.
Yokefellow
Active Member
Yokefellow
Active Member
We have nothing further to discuss then.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Well, since you do not represent Christianity, and Christianity is divided into thousands of sects, each with different beliefs......
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I'd comment that you've offered nothing in support of your 'Death entered the world' notion ─ not surprising, since it isn't there. As I told you, it appears to be from the 2nd century BCE and merely incidental until Augustine of Hippo got hold of it.
And surely it's plain as day that God misspoke ─ [he] said they'd die the day they ate the fruit, the Snake said, No, you won't, the Snake spoke accurately, and God misspoke.
I respectfully suggest you read the words of the Tanakh as they're written, and not try to impose later Christian interpretations on them. They deserve the respect due to all ancient documents.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
We can't now know what exactly Jesus said, because there was an interval of about 40 years before this was written down, plus he probably spoke in Aramaic, and this was written in Greek. Besides if this is what He said what does destroy a soul mean? It does not have to mean the soul becomes non-existent. A person can be destroyed without him being dead. The same goes for a soul. here's a different version of what seems to be the same saying by Jesus:
12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
(King James Bible, Luke)
The wording is different in this Gospel but it appears to be the same occasion. Thus I say this stuff about the soul being destroyed, or the body going into hell is not proven. What was said is not known.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Wow! This guy has no shame.