Did Adam and Eve and animals have genitals before the fall?

[Trailblazer]

Wow! This guy has no shame.

That is true.

 

[dybmh]

The rules are different in folktales.

Lol, so who, pray tell, makes these rules? You?
And this only makes sense if the story is intended to be read as a folktale.
And several times later in the story a married couple is having trouble having children.
And in this folktale the god is a law-giving god, which means that the story is more than just narrative.
Because of this Gen 2:24 is a law defining what it means to be a "wife".
If they didn't have relations in Gen 2:25 then the verse immediately prior is meaningless wasted ink.
And in this folktale the god is in control of the births f the children in the story. None are born until the folktale-god says so. It doesn't matter how many times the couple has relations.
Ever wonder why the serpent wanted to possess Eve? Oh yeah! You're missing that part of the story because it's omitted in the English.

There are so many reasons to understand that Adam and Eve consummated their marriage at the end of Gen 2. What's the reason to skip all this, and instead imagine that they were both virgins until Gen 4? Just because a child was born? Did you forget the child's name and what it means? Why would the child be named that way unless the god is the one in control of conception, not, simply a result of physical intimacy? If physical intimacy ALWAYS produces a child in this folktale, the child would not have been named that way.

On the contrary, I've never pretended to speak Hebrew. I've said all along that I'm reliant on respected translators. So this is about two things ─ what those translators said, and what you're pointing as meanings which they fail to convey. In particular I'm not trying to disagree with you, any more than I'm trying to disagree with the other translators.

The point is, the confidence in your interpretation is not being adjusted as a result of lack of knowledge and expertise. I told you the details were missing in the English. In spite of that, You went to an all English commentary by Alter. The Hebrew is not even included in that translation. It's 100% english. They didn't even print the Hebrew script, that's how little it is valued there.

And when the details I mentioned, surprise-surprise, were missing, you assumed I was wrong. Then I showed you, and I've been giving you reason after reason after reason that Adam and Eve had intercourse at the end of Gen 2, including but not limited to the RSV to which you seem duty-bound for some reason. And you are still holding to this notion that they were virgins until Gen 4.

The Latin consummo means 'to complete', 'to bring to perfection'. In this context 'consummation' was and likely in some places still is a legal term for the first copulation, which was necessary for the marriage to be recognized. You may recall various European kings having eye-witnesses to the First Bonk after the ceremony.

Yup... except for Jewish law it's yichud. seclusion. They need "alone-time".



In order to understand this stuff, one really needs to know Jewish law. Traditionally the groom has promised contractually to give the bride the opportunity to be a mother. A promise has been legally made to her. So, the contract is not in effect until that has occured. And, I should mention that in Jewish law the woman controls when and how often this sort of physical interaction occurs. The woman controls this, not the man. The man cleaves to the woman, not the other way around. That matches Gen 2:24.

This "folktale" is more than narrative. It's also law. That law needs to be known to understand the story.

 

[blü 2]

Lol, so who, pray tell, makes these rules? You?
And this only makes sense if the story is intended to be read as a folktale.
And several times later in the story a married couple is having trouble having children.
And in this folktale the god is a law-giving god, which means that the story is more than just narrative.
Because of this Gen 2:24 is a law defining what it means to be a "wife".
If they didn't have relations in Gen 2:25 then the verse immediately prior is meaningless wasted ink.
And in this folktale the god is in control of the births f the children in the story. None are born until the folktale-god says so. It doesn't matter how many times the couple has relations.
Ever wonder why the serpent wanted to possess Eve? Oh yeah! You're missing that part of the story because it's omitted in the English.

There are so many reasons to understand that Adam and Eve consummated their marriage at the end of Gen 2. What's the reason to skip all this, and instead imagine that they were both virgins until Gen 4? Just because a child was born? Did you forget the child's name and what it means? Why would the child be named that way unless the god is the one in control of conception, not, simply a result of physical intimacy? If physical intimacy ALWAYS produces a child in this folktale, the child would not have been named that way.



The point is, the confidence in your interpretation is not being adjusted as a result of lack of knowledge and expertise. I told you the details were missing in the English. In spite of that, You went to an all English commentary by Alter. The Hebrew is not even included in that translation. It's 100% english. They didn't even print the Hebrew script, that's how little it is valued there.

And when the details I mentioned, surprise-surprise, were missing, you assumed I was wrong. Then I showed you, and I've been giving you reason after reason after reason that Adam and Eve had intercourse at the end of Gen 2, including but not limited to the RSV to which you seem duty-bound for some reason. And you are still holding to this notion that they were virgins until Gen 4.



Yup... except for Jewish law it's yichud. seclusion. They need "alone-time".

View attachment 82477

In order to understand this stuff, one really needs to know Jewish law. Traditionally the groom has promised contractually to give the bride the opportunity to be a mother. A promise has been legally made to her. So, the contract is not in effect until that has occured. And, I should mention that in Jewish law the woman controls when and how often this sort of physical interaction occurs. The woman controls this, not the man. The man cleaves to the woman, not the other way around. That matches Gen 2:24.

This "folktale" is more than narrative. It's also law. That law needs to be known to understand the story.

Take it that I've just repeated here what I said in my previous post.

 

[dybmh]

Take it that I've just repeated here what I said in my previous post.

Except you didn't say any of that stuff, because you didn't know it. And for some reason, admitting the ignorance and adjusting the confidence in your interpretations is ummm... against your "religion"? figuratively?

 

[Audie]

No, that's a later invention. Adam and Eve were always going to die (otherwise the presence of the Tree of Life is meaningless). Nowhere in the Garden story does it say (a) that Adam and Eve sinned (b) that death had not till then entered the world or (c) that God expelled Adam and Eve for any reason other that the one [he] states in Genesis 3:22-3: "22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good from evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ─ 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden."

The story about sin and the Fall appears to have developed in the midrash tradition among the Jews of Alexandria late in the 2nd century BCE. Paul mentions it briefly but no one really noticed until Augustine of Hippo, who realized it was the perfect selling tool, the snake-oil technique of first instilling fear in your audience and then promising a remedy that only you can provide, and for a very reasonable price.


The first bonk of Adam and Eve is mentioned in Genesis 4:1. There's no suggestion that any alteration was needed for this to happen.

I like the hypotheses that, first, the function of the Garden story is to link the legend of the creation to the early folk-history of the Hebrews; and second, that it depicts the childhood of mankind, where all is innocence; and then puberty and the getting of understanding; and then being told, you're grown up now, go and make your own way.

It's needed to explain ( blame the victim)
how it is that though "god" is all good,
everything "god" made is bad.

 

[Audie]

Wow! This guy has no shame.

Winner frub

 

[Audie]

The tree of life was connected to natural instinct; inner self, which has a sense of naturally integrated limits. The tree knowledge of good and evil, is connected to the ego. This is more symbolic of learned knowledge from outside, such as fake news. External learning is how natural limits become exceeded; fad and marketing.

After Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge; ego appears, they realize they are naked. They were naked before and after they ate, but only react to being naked after the ego learns naked is taboo; good or evil. Now they feel a need to cover themselves, which is a tell, that they have eaten of the tree of learned knowledge. They had lost that innocence of innate feeling of being morally neutral; natural.

Before that, naked was fine, since it was part of natural instinct and nature. Before, the fall, the ego had not yet value judged naked as good or evil. But after they ate; externally learned knowledge of good and evil, naked becomes a socially learned taboo, that amplified desire beyond natural limits. Prohibition creates temptation. Over population would now start to occur. They had genitals both before and after the fall, but the taboo of knowledge of good and evil; ego, causes them to exceed natural limits; original sin. Sex become more than procreation, but a type of self medicating drug that makes babies, and would go on to need abortion due to over exceeding natural limits. Abortion is needed by those who cannot self regulate to the reality of the earth.

Sin is not imputed where there is no law; knowledge of good and evil. It was not a sin ten years ago, not to know all the Lefty Trans pronouns. It became a sin, when Liberalism made it a law, thereby creating a new sin in schools. The same behavior of old now becomes a sin due to a new law or new learned knowledge of good and evil.

The fact that the Left like to make the most laws; regulations, shows its connection to Satan. It amplifies darkness and sin due to making more and more laws thereby defining more and more sin. The ego is why the world is overly populated. This is not natural. Hollywood and Madison Ave, is all ego and is also slanted Lefty. Even climate change is trying to reduce life to a bunch of Lefty behavior tattoos. Lefty is what you get when you constantly eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; excessive compulsive. The Right is also about ego, but makes room for the inner self; religion. There is a trend to reduce regulation and Lefty sin.

You do know it's just a story ?

 

[Audie]

I think the original earth was designed to have just expanded its circumference to accommodate population growth. Eventually it would have been the largest planet in the solar system, larger than Jupiter even, had Adam not sinned. But the auto-grow feature never got tested, so we'll never know for sure.

That's a truly weird thing to think.

Do you have any idea of the gravity on such
a planet?

Or any notion of exponential growth?

Unchecked by death, the exponential
growth of any population would soon
stop because nothing can exceed the speed
of light.

You surely did not actually think.

Thats the wrong word.
.

 

[Revelation 21:4]

Yes of course! Before the Fall, Jehovah told Adam at Genesis 1:28 to “Be fruitful, become many and fill the Earth.”

 

[Bthoth]

Before Sin, there was no death.

Assumption. What did they eat if there was no death. Seeds and fruit are the reproduction of plants.

If Adam and Eve and the animals had genitals, it would only a matter of time before reproduction would cause Earth to became over populated had nobody sinned.

Adam named eve, The man gave his wife the name “Eve,” because she was the mother of all the living
Gen 3:20

Am I missing something here?

Yes, that human beings are born with the reproductive parts (genitals) Just like animals etc......

Reproduction is not a sin. Never has been except to the confused. The very method of living into the next generations is to reproduce.

 

[Bthoth]

The tree of life was connected to natural instinct;

Correct. Before consciousness (making the first choice - Thinking) Human beings existed like the apes on just instinct

The tree knowledge of good and evil, is connected to the ego.

Ego. Unless competing with another, there is very little ego.

The ego could be attribute to the cain and abel story. But the tree of knowledge has been going since words started. Adam named the wife, Eve and the things of the garden. Conscious life created words - labels.

After Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge; ego appears, they realize they are naked.

Again, consciousness began.

noticed nakeness= conscious experience

I stopped there as the rehash is just circular.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is no need for a bodily resurrection. The body once dead remains dead, and the spirit (soul) goes to the Kingdom of God in Heaven.
Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in Heaven. Dead bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, Heaven. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and live forever. That is what the following verses say.
1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]
Read full chapter
transform: make a thorough or dramatic change in the form, appearance, or character of.
transform means - Google Search

1st Corinthians speaks of two bodies.
Those who have that first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6 - will be resurrected as Jesus was in a spirit body.
They will serve with Christ in Heaven for a thousand years as both kings and priests - Rev. 5:9-10.
Serve as heavenly kings and priests over the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as promised at Matt. 5:5 from Psalm 37:9-11.
The meek who inherit the Earth starts with the humble meek ' sheep ' at Jesus coming Glory Time of separation - Matt. 25:31-34,37
They will be here on Earth with the opportunity to live forever on Earth and be here to welcome back the resurrected dead who were Not called to be kings and priests - Luke 22:28-30

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Correct. Before consciousness (making the first choice - Thinking) Human beings existed like the apes on just instinct

Adam was chosen to choose names for the animals. Thinking about names Not instinct.
No instinct needed but intelligence needed in understanding Genesis 2:17
Even Eve understood the Law Not to eat from the forbidden tree - Gen. 3:3

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Assumption. What did they eat if there was no death. Seeds and fruit are the reproduction of plants.....................

The Law was Not to eat from one forbidden tree. Breaking the Law carried with it the death penalty - Gen. 2:17

If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees and said come over and have a much fruit from the trees except for one tree.
Would you consider your neighbor as not being generous because he just reserved one tree for himself.

By saying ' Do Not eat ' was as if God put up a No Trespassing sign on one tree out of all the trees on Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........Physical death does not mean anyone is going to Hell. All physical bodies die eventually, at which time the soul leaves the body and takes on another form, a spiritual body. Those souls who are near to God in their heart will go to Heaven, those who are distant from God will go to Hell.
Hell is tied into disobedience to God, since God has commanded us to love Him and worship Him.
Heaven and Hell are not geographical locations, they states of the soul in the spiritual world, which has no geography.

Can anyone think of anyone righteous who went to hell _______________________
On the day Christ Jesus died righteous Jesus went to hell - Acts 2:27
Not to some religious-myth hell teaching but to the Bible's hell mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why both Jesus and the OT both teach sleep ( Not pain) in death - John 11:11-14; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
ALL of Adam was a living soul and at death ALL of Adam became a dead soul, a life-less soul or person. - Gen. 2:7
No post-mortem penalty for dead Adam, No double jeopardy in death for Adam and No one else.
The total complete asking price tag for sin is ' death ' Not death plus any thing else - Romans 6:23,7

Jesus came to Earth for us because we can't resurrect oneself or anyone else.
We needed someone who could resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Rev. 1:18
Some ( Luke 22:28-30 ) resurrected to Heaven - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10.
The majority to be resurrected back to live life on Earth with the opportunity to live forever on Earth as offered to Adam before his downfall.

 

[Monty]

Nope, I think you've got it.

In answer to your question, yes, Adam and Eve cleaved to each other shamelessly at the end of chapter 2, so that means... genitals.

Regarding the animals, I think so based on Chapter 1, but, it's not super clear and obvious.

But did Adam and his partner (also named Adam) have genitals, or is that why it took them 130 years to first become pregnant (Gen 5:1-3) - or so the story goes?

 

[dybmh]

But did Adam and his partner (also named Adam) have genitals, or is that why it took them 130 years to first become pregnant (Gen 5:1-3) - or so the story goes?

Yes, cleaving and becoming his wife means genitals. His partner was not named Adam, She was HaAdam, meaning a human. the "Ha" prefix is a definite article which indicates "Adam" is a not a name. Prior to being named Eve her name was Isha. Meaning "Woman".

It did not take 130 years to become pregnant. The first child was born in Gen 4:1. That child's name was Caim ( technically Kayin ). I think you are misreading Gen 5:3. Here is the verse:

​

And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth;​

​

You're confusing Cain and Seth.

 

[Monty]

Yes, cleaving and becoming his wife means genitals. His partner was not named Adam, She was HaAdam, meaning a human. the "Ha" prefix is a definite article which indicates "Adam" is a not a name. Prior to being named Eve her name was Isha. Meaning "Woman".

It did not take 130 years to become pregnant. The first child was born in Gen 4:1. That child's name was Caim ( technically Kayin ). I think you are misreading Gen 5:3. Here is the verse:

​

And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth;​

​

You're confusing Cain and Seth.

Obviously the "years" listed in the Gen 5 geneology were lunar cycles of ~30 days which are more easily observed than solar cycles of ~365 days. Thus Adam's partner first became pregnant at aged ~11 years old, and not an absurd 130 "years" (Gen 5:3). And Noah's grandfather was drowned at aged ~80 years old and not a ridiculous 969 "years" (Gen 5:27), and Noah's sister Naamah gave birth to triplets aged ~40 years old and not a silly 500 "years" (Gen 5:32).

The Gen 5 genealogy includes the Gen 4 genealogy with minor changes in spelling and order. Thus Cainan=Cain, Mahalalel=Mehujael, Jared=Irad, Enoch=Enoch, Methuselah=Methusael, Lamech=Lamech. Therefore the "Adam" in the Gen 5 genealogy was the grandfather of the Gen 4 "Adam" (Enosh).

 

[Colt]

Before Sin, there was no death. If Adam and Eve and the animals had genitals, it would only a matter of time before reproduction would cause Earth to became over populated had nobody sinned. Am I missing something here?

Yes, you have a point. There are a number of things wrong with the Israelites creation story.

* The "crafty beast" was already fallen, already sinful BEFORE Eve was seduced into going against Gods instructions for the pair.

* Adam and Eve arrived on earth as full-grown adults, educated and speaking the language of the beast. When the legend of Adam was appropriated by the Israelites into their story of origins, they just assumed Adam was the first human. They didn't know anything about evolution or the rest of the inhabited world.

* When Cain leaves the second garden he fears people out in the world. The earth was already quite old by 6,000 BC and populated by humans at least 1,000,000 years ago.

* Yes, the earth would be quite crowded if death was introduced by sin. Death came specifically to Adam and Eve (they could no longer eat of the tree of life and live indefinatly). death or translation is normal form man.


But Cain said to the LORD, “My punishmentd is greater than I can bear. 14Behold, this day You have driven me from the face of the earth, and from Your face I will be hidden; I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15“Not so!”e replied the LORD. “If anyone slays Cain, then Cain will be avenged sevenfold.” And the LORD placed a mark on Cain, so that no one who found him would kill him.

 

[exchemist]

Before Sin, there was no death. If Adam and Eve and the animals had genitals, it would only a matter of time before reproduction would cause Earth to became over populated had nobody sinned. Am I missing something here?

Fossils.