did Jesus ever say he was god?

[gwk230]

Well, I believe that Jesus is "God." I just don't believe He is the "same thing" as His Father. I believe He is the Only Begotten Son of the Father." I see "God" as a synonym for "Godhead," and Godhead as a collective noun.

I'm sorry but it doesn't. When you say "God," are you referring to God the Father? It would help if you could explain which person of the Godhead to whom you are referring. I don't believe that when Jesus was in Gethsemane, He was praying to himself? Do you? I don't believe He asked himself to forgive those who nailed Him to the cross. Do you? I don't believe He commended his Spirit into His own hands. Do you? I don't believe He referred to himself as His own God. Do you?

I don't see a problem here at all. God merely gave Satan/Lucifer his free agency and Lucifer chose to use it to rebell against Him. What kind of a God would allow no choice between good and evil. And could anything good come from God forcing everyone to do good? How would "good" even exist if it had no opposite?

He was obviously extremely proud and rebellious and thought he stood a fighting chance of getting what he wanted. Dumb guy.

I just wanted to say that I agree with all you have replied here with and am glad you understand the titles "God" as being of the same understanding as "Elohim".

Frubals to you. :foryou:

 

[Katzpur]

I just wanted to say that I agree with all you have replied here with and am glad you understand the titles "God" as being of the same understanding as "Elohim".

Wow! It's not often that someone outside of my religion shares my understanding of this topic. That's pretty cool!

Frubals to you. :foryou:

Gracias!

 

[Freelancer7]

I didn't say anything about Him having less "glory," Heneni. All of the divine qualities the Father had, the Son had, too. But the Father used the Son to create the universe, and the Son did as He was asked.
.

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The Son I belive to be just an entity, who was created, to do a job, who has explained things in his day, so at a future date a greater expalanation can come to humankind on the Inteligent Evolution Front. The Father in His day, is even a higher Manifestation than the Son. Terminology of Father and Son is just used for manifestation purposes. Both did not create the Universe, The Father would be closer than the Son, and connected to a Higher Intelligence that created all living things on earth. That Energy that created all living things on earth would be attached to Universal Creation. But then again perhaps Im just a Mohammed.

 

[Freelancer7]

Once again if you understand Revelation 3, you will see that Jesus Christ was on about reincarnation, which would mean he himself and the apostles would all be present on earth as we speak, their ages would very between being a new born baby and an old man, but would be present on earth right now!

 

[sojourner]

So they are separate, but the same? That makes zero sense.

That's why it's a mystery. We can't know everything about God.

However, if they are the same then whenever Jesus speaks of "the Father" then he's referring to himself in the third person.

No, he's referring to another Person of the Trinity.

 

[sojourner]

In the Gospel of Thomas, older than the others by decades, Jesus explicitly says he's not God.

Well, Thomas isn't canonical, now, is it?:cover:

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner, I believe the question refers to the Christian interpretation of John 10:30. Since I am a Christian and believe John 10:30 to be a true statement, I believe that my input is pertinent to the discussion.

Actually, the question refers to the Trinitarian interpretation of John 10:30. But nonetheless, Jesus says that he and the Father are "one." And that's different from being two beings. It's being one Being in two persons.

 

[sojourner]

Sure, He's God. But what is His relationship to God the Father?

They are One.

 

[Heneni]

was not "God." He is God, but He also has a God.

Thats the problem right there katzpur. Jesus does not have a god. The nature of a god, is that he does not need anything from anybody else, he is self-sufficient. While on earth, jesus was stripped of his majesty and became the receiver of all he needed to do what he did. But that is not what he was like before the creation of the world. Neither is he now.

Jesus is not a replica from the original god. They were both god. The son did not receive his self-sufficiency from the father before the foundation of the world. Jesus reveals the glory of the father, how can he reveal glory he does not have himself. Can i reveal to you the glory of an angel. Can i in my human state demonstrate to you the glory of an angel? Only angels can reveal the glory of angels. Only god can reveal the glory of god. As human we may reflect in part the glory of god, the glory that he shines upon us, can be reflected in this world yes. But we cannot reveal his full glory. The creation too is a reflection of gods glory, but it in now way fully reveals the entire scope of gods glory.

For god to receive something from anybody else, means that he is lacking in something! You cant call jesus god and then say he has a god. Because jesus cant at the same time be god, yet require something from another god.

There is a difference between what jesus was before the creation and what he was on this earth, and what he is now.

So, even though you believe jesus is god, i dont think we agree on what a 'god' is.

According to the mormon faith, god was a man, and then became a god. If that is possible, how did the this man god get his power? From whom did the man that became a god get his glory?

Jesus did not become a god. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word WAS god.

So jesus was there in the beginning, with god, and he too was god. He did not become god. He did not have a god. If he had a god, he was not self-existant right from the beginning, but would have needed another god to give him his life. Jesus IS the life.

When you say that jesus was god and had a god, it means that jesus was an angel. And some mormons believe that jesus and satan were brothers. Both angels. But jesus never was an angel:

Hebrews 1:13
13To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"?

Heneni

 

[Freelancer7]

Thats the problem right there katzpur. Jesus does not have a god.

I think Jesus is waiting for the so called Father to turn up so then the Father can tell the Son who his God is and then that God will become the Sons God?! But then again I still might be confused and old SONy Jim was on about Mohmammed in that staement??

 

[sojourner]

Thats the problem right there katzpur. Jesus does not have a god.

Jesus had a God -- just like every other human being.

 

[Heneni]

I think Jesus is waiting for the so called Father to turn up so then the Father can tell the Son who his God is and then that God will become the Sons God?! But then again I still might be confused and old SONy Jim was on about Mohmammed in that staement??

Good luck on that one
:clover:

 

[Oberon]

In the Gospel of Thomas, older than the others by decades, Jesus explicitly says he's not God.

1. Its not older.
2. Where does he say this?

 

[Heneni]

Jesus had a God -- just like every other human being.

while he was in human form yes..

 

[sojourner]

while he was in human form yes..

'zactly!

 

[Kurt31416]

2. Where does he say this?

Thomas 15
Jesus says: "When you see one who was not born of woman,
fall on your face (and) worship him. That one is your Father."

Everyone (except the second century Gnostics) agree that Jesus had a mother. Thomas repeatedly says so in sayings copied out of Thomas and used in the Christian Bible.

 

[Oberon]

Thomas 15
Jesus says: "When you see one who was not born of woman,
fall on your face (and) worship him. That one is your Father."

Everyone (except the second century Gnostics) agree that Jesus had a mother. Thomas repeatedly says so in sayings copied out of Thomas and used in the Christian Bible.

1. This does not say explicitly that Jesus was not god.
2. In thomas, Jesus denies he has a mother:

"The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and mother are standing outside."
And jesus denies these are his mothers and his brothers:
"He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father (god) wants are my brothers and mother."

So no, Thomas' Jesus never denies he is the son of god. However, Thomas explicitly says that Jesus is not a flesh and blood human, but only appeared to be.

 

[Kurt31416]

2. In thomas, Jesus denies he has a mother:

"The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and mother are standing outside."
And jesus denies these are his mothers and his brothers:
"He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father (god) wants are my brothers and mother."

As I already pointed out to you, that and the other sayings about his Mother in Thomas were copied out of Thomas and into the Christian Bible. The grammar says he has a mother and the parallels in Luke, Matthew and Mark say the same thing.

"Parallels", you know, as in, there aren't any second century Gnostics parallels to Thomas.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually, the question refers to the Trinitarian interpretation of John 10:30.

Says who? Certainly not the person who asked the question.

But nonetheless, Jesus says that he and the Father are "one."

Which they are.

And that's different from being two beings. It's being one Being in two persons.

And here's where semantics gets in the way. I believe Jesus Christ was a divine Being who walked the earth. He was also a Person. Are you saying He was was a Person but not a divine Being?

 

[Katzpur]

They are One.

And that's all? They don't have a Father-Son relationship?