did Jesus ever say he was god?

[Freelancer7]

And that's all? They don't have a Father-Son relationship?

What is a Father Son Relationship????, how about if a Son was older than his Father!!?? So tried to direct his Father when the Father might say to himself 'you not thinking about the differences betwee civilisations and have come self-centered in your old biologial shell way'?????

 

[Kurt31416]

In the follower of John the Baptist, Mandaeans, where Jesus and the Christians got it, the Father is the Son of the Great Life/Holy Spirit.

 

[Think4urself]

As is the case throughout the bible there are many contradictions. In the case of Jesus being mentioned as God or as referring to himself as God, it's in there. There are also verses that seem to say that when Jesus is on earth he refers to the father (God) as a separate entity. The verses for and against the God, no God are listed below. You can decide for yourself, but this is another conundrum and one of the many contradictions in the bible that most Christians seem to overlook. The verses for the affirmative are listed first.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30-31
I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:38-39
The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him.
John 14:9
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Colossians 1:16
For by him [Jesus] were all things created.
Colossians 2:9
For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
1 Timothy 3:16
God was made manifest in the flesh.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Revelation 1:17
Fear not; I am the first and the last.
Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Against.
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.
John 14:28
My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Corinthians 11:3
The head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Colossians 3:1
Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

 

[Heneni]

As is the case throughout the bible there are many contradictions. In the case of Jesus being mentioned as God or as referring to himself as God, it's in there. There are also verses that seem to say that when Jesus is on earth he refers to the father (God) as a separate entity. The verses for and against the God, no God are listed below. You can decide for yourself, but this is another conundrum and one of the many contradictions in the bible that most Christians seem to overlook. The verses for the affirmative are listed first.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30-31
I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:38-39
The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him.
John 14:9
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Colossians 1:16
For by him [Jesus] were all things created.
Colossians 2:9
For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
1 Timothy 3:16
God was made manifest in the flesh.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Revelation 1:17
Fear not; I am the first and the last.
Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Against.
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.
John 14:28
My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Corinthians 11:3
The head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Colossians 3:1
Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

And all this study has led you to be an atheist. :sad4: Im a thinker for myself as well.

 

[Oberon]

As I already pointed out to you, that and the other sayings about his Mother in Thomas were copied out of Thomas and into the Christian Bible.

The grammar says he has a mother and the parallels in Luke, Matthew and Mark say the same thing.

You read coptic and greek? I can read the greek of Thomas and the NT. Jesus says the his mother and brothers are his followers, not that he has biological ones. And in Thomas, where Jesus isn't even human, but only appears to be flesh, this takes on a whole new meaning.

"Parallels", you know, as in, there aren't any second century Gnostics parallels to Thomas.

Docetic christology for one. There are more.

 

[Heneni]

Against.
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.
John 14:28
My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

All scriptures here refer to jesus while in human form so you have to understand that while in human form he was subject to god the father.

Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Dont see how that one makes jesus not god

1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I previously in this thread explained what that one means

Colossians 3:1
Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Position of the throne does not make jesus god or not god. A queen sits next to the king, it does not make her king. In the same way the king sits next to the queen, it does not make him queen.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

This scripture says that there is only mediator between god and man, the man chirst jesus. When jesus was in him human form (man) he mediated between us and god.

But in the beginning was the word (jesus) and the word was god and the word WAS god.

Phillipians 2:9
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

If god the father exalted him to the highest place, then he exalted him to god, who has the highest place.

 

[Freelancer7]

In the same way the king sits next to the queen, it does not make him queen.
.

Like it, but of the same Heart??!!!

 

[sojourner]

I believe Jesus Christ was a divine Being who walked the earth. He was also a Person. Are you saying He was was a Person but not a divine Being?

So, you don't believe that Jesus was a human being who walked the earth? Rather Gnostic of you, if that's the case.

I'm saying he's a human/Divine Person whose Being is God.

 

[sojourner]

And that's all? They don't have a Father-Son relationship?

For purposes of our understanding, yes, they do.

 

[Freelancer7]

I Cant believe how a quote of 'My father in me as me in my Father' sort of words has created such madness??

 

[Heneni]

Like it, but of the same Heart??!!!

:dan: YES!

 

[sojourner]

I Cant believe how a quote of 'My father in me as me in my Father' sort of words has created such madness??

Are we getting father and father from the topic?

 

[Katzpur]

while he was in human form yes..

And when did His Father cease to be His God? Could you direct me to somewhere in the scriptures that would help me understand this?

 

[Katzpur]

What is a Father Son Relationship????

Are you saying you really don't know what a Father-Son relationship is? I would explain, but I wouldn't want to offend you.

how about if a Son was older than his Father!!??

This is an impossibility as far as I'm concerned, but if you can explain how it's possible, please be my guest.

 

[Katzpur]

Thats the problem right there katzpur. Jesus does not have a god. The nature of a god, is that he does not need anything from anybody else, he is self-sufficient. While on earth, jesus was stripped of his majesty and became the receiver of all he needed to do what he did. But that is not what he was like before the creation of the world. Neither is he now.

Are you saying that Jesus was not God while He was on earth? I can't imagine that's what you're implying. While He was on earth, His specifically stated that His Father was His God and was greater than He. Unless you actually believe that He ceased to be God while on this earth, I'm afraid your argument falls flat.

Jesus is not a replica from the original god. They were both god. The son did not receive his self-sufficiency from the father before the foundation of the world. Jesus reveals the glory of the father, how can he reveal glory he does not have himself.

Where did I say that He isn't God or hasn't always been God? Are you even reading my posts?

Can i reveal to you the glory of an angel. Can i in my human state demonstrate to you the glory of an angel? Only angels can reveal the glory of angels.

Of course you can't. You're not an angel.

Only god can reveal the glory of god.

That's right, and that's why Jesus could reveal the glory of His Father.

For god to receive something from anybody else, means that he is lacking in something! You cant call jesus god and then say he has a god. Because jesus cant at the same time be god, yet require something from another god.

Oh, I absolutely can. I can because that's what the scriptures teach. Again, there are dozens and dozens of scriptures in which Jesus asks His Father for something. You know, you might be able to clarify this whole misunderstanding by answering this one simple question (a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do nicely, and will ultimately make all the difference). The question: Was Jesus "God" during His mortal ministry here on earth?

There is a difference between what jesus was before the creation and what he was on this earth, and what he is now.

What's that difference? According to my belief system, He was God before He was born, He was God while He was on earth, and He is God today.

So, even though you believe jesus is god, i dont think we agree on what a 'god' is.

Evidently we don't. Would you mind defining "God" in your own words and I'll do the same? Once we do that, we may be able to move forward instead of going around in circles.

According to the mormon faith, god was a man, and then became a god. If that is possible, how did the this man god get his power? From whom did the man that became a god get his glory?

Heneni, it's a huge mistake for you to try to tell me what my faith teaches. Believe me, everything you know or think you know is second-hand, misinterpreted, and from questionable sources.

Jesus did not become a god. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word WAS god.

Guess what? That's what I believe, too. That's what my church teaches.

So jesus was there in the beginning, with god, and he too was god. He did not become god.

That's right.

He did not have a god. If he had a god, he was not self-existant right from the beginning, but would have needed another god to give him his life. Jesus IS the life.

So why did He say He had a God? Why did He act as if He had a God? Why, at this very moment, is He sitting on the right hand of His Father instead of the other way around? (Where you do think the phrase, "right-hand man" came from?) Jesus is His Father's "right hand man" so to speak. That's because His Father still reigns supreme. Jesus is our advocate with the Father. The Father is not our advocate with Jesus. But they are both God. The are both part of a single Godhead.

When you say that jesus was god and had a god, it means that jesus was an angel.

What? If I thought Jesus was an angel, I'd say that Jesus was an angel. I believe that Jesus is God and will continue to state that Jesus is God. He's just not God the Father.

And some mormons believe that jesus and satan were brothers. Both angels. But jesus never was an angel:

Hebrews 1:13
13To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"?

Satan/Lucifer was an angel. Jesus Christ was never an angel. He was always God. Why are you ignoring the fact that I keep saying this, over and over and over again?

 

[Katzpur]

Are we getting father and father from the topic?

I think maybe we're just getting to the bottom of it.

 

[Heneni]

Are you saying that Jesus was not God while He was on earth? I can't imagine that's what you're implying. While He was on earth, His specifically stated that His Father was His God and was greater than He. Unless you actually believe that He ceased to be God while on this earth, I'm afraid your argument falls flat.

I'm afraid your argument falls flat. I know he said that his father was his god while on earth. I have been saying that all along, have you been reading MY posts.

Where did I say that He isn't God or hasn't always been God? Are you even reading my posts?

Are you going to think everything i post is because you said it and im refuting it, is there any point where you read the post in order to understand what im saying or because you think im refuting what you ALREADY said. If i dont say, you said, but i dont agree, please dont assume that i think you said it. Try to read the message in totality. I dont need you to ok or not ok every sentence i write. The general idea would be nice.

Oh, I absolutely can. I can because that's what the scriptures teach. Again, there are dozens and dozens of scriptures in which Jesus asks His Father for something.

All while in human form. Did you even understand my posts? And what scripture is your authority? The book of mormon, well then we have a serious stumbling block already.

What's that difference? According to my belief system, He was God before He was born, He was God while He was on earth, and He is God today.

Yes you believe he was god before he was born but you also believe he had a god. Thats where we dont agree. Unless you are saying that before he was born he had no god above him, and after his resurrection he had no god above him.

Evidently we don't. Would you mind defining "God" in your own words and I'll do the same? Once we do that, we may be able to move forward instead of going around in circles.

God is all sufficient. Does not need 'another' god to survive.

Heneni, it's a huge mistake for you to try to tell me what my faith teaches. Believe me, everything you know or think you know is second-hand, misinterpreted, and from questionable sources.

Iits rather a huge mistake that mormons dont agree on mormonism.

In the same way, please dont make the mistake to try and interpret my religion for me? Is that fair. And since you said 'my faith' i take it to mean you dont consider yourself a christian. Thats fine im glad you made that resolution.

bye for now!
(Do keep on rallying support :trampo

 

[Katzpur]

I'm afraid your argument falls flat. I know he said that his father was his god while on earth. I have been saying that all along, have you been reading MY posts.

Yes, I know that you've said that. What I'm asking is was Jesus God while He was on earth? If you've answered that particular question, I apologize. I could possibly have missed it, but I don't think I did. So where does the Bible say that His Father ceased to be His God at some point?

Are you going to think everything i post is because you said it and im refuting it, is there any point where you read the post in order to understand what im saying or because you think im refuting what you ALREADY said. If i dont say, you said, but i dont agree, please dont assume that i think you said it. Try to read the message in totality. I dont need you to ok or not ok every sentence i write. The general idea would be nice.

Okay, sorry. I'll try to be less thorough.

All while in human form. Did you even understand my posts? And what scripture is your authority? The book of mormon, well then we have a serious stumbling block already.

I'm evidently not understanding you. I haven't quoted one single solitary time from the Book of Mormon. Not once. Every single argument I've made has been from the Bible. Stumbling block argument dismissed.

Yes you believe he was god before he was born but you also believe he had a god. Thats where we dont agree. Unless you are saying that before he was born he had no god above him, and after his resurrection he had no god above him.

That's right. He was God in the beginning, but He was also subordinate to His Father.

Iits rather a huge mistake that mormons dont agree on mormonism.

I think Mormons agree on LDS doctrine to a far greater extent than other Christians agree on "Christian" doctrine. But that's sort of beside the point of this thread.

In the same way, please dont make the mistake to try and interpret my religion for me? Is that fair.

I'm sorry if I came across as trying to interpret your religion. I wasn't aware that I had done so. If I misinterpreted your beliefs, feel free to correct me. I mean that sincerely.

And since you said 'my faith' i take it to mean you dont consider yourself a christian. Thats fine im glad you made that resolution.

I don't consider myself to be a Catholic Christian or a Baptist Christian or a Methodist Christian. I do consider myself to be an LDS Christian. I'm assuming that your faith varies somewhat from the faith of other Christians on the forum. That was what I was getting at, and I kind of think you know that.

Oh, and by the way, I noticed you failed to answer the one question I put to you directly, asking for a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer: Was Jesus "God" during His mortal ministry here on earth?

bye for now!
(Do keep on rallying support :trampo

:dan:Take care of yourself. No hard feelings -- just a disagreement.

 

[Vile Atheist]

did Jesus ever say he was god?

Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing is for certain: I'm the next best thing

 

[gwk230]

What's that difference? According to my belief system, He was God before He was born, He was God while He was on earth, and He is God today.

Yes you believe he was god before he was born but you also believe he had a god. Thats where we dont agree. Unless you are saying that before he was born he had no god above him, and after his resurrection he had no god above him.

I have a few questions to the both of you and they are . In your understanding, what was his name before he was born? What exactly are we talking about here? A body or what? What exactly, in your undrstanding, happened at his purification with what came down as a dove? What was the name of that which came down?