Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[Heathen Hammer]

You haven't proven the answers I gave are irrational.

You seem to interpret reasons as excuses. I can lead you into how to discern between the two.

I doubt you could lead me into anything, given your posts so far...

Be that as it may,
I may have not proven your specific answers to be irrational at this moment, simply because I have not yet taken up addressing them. I am simply stating the predetermined outcome, as witnessed through many years of interactions with such folk.

However, as time goes on, I certainly shall, where they are.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

No, it is forgivenes directed toward some, due to the judgement upon another.

Quantrill

No son. It's not the definition of forgiveness; thus, it's not forgiveness.

You see, you want to apply the word 'forgiveness' to it, because you want it to be that; forgiveness is a good attribute. In your mind, God can only have positive attributes. Even if his actions disprove them.

but since you have defined what it actually is that God does, we can see it's not forgiveness. If it isn't human forgiveness, it's something different. This is just an Orwellian attempt at calling slavery freedom, or tyranny justice.

Words have actual definitions, you see.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Why would he sacrifice something to himself?

Because He is holy and we are not.

As an example:
your response here is irrational. First, you aren't even answering the question in the context it was asked: how is God, giving something back to himself, a sacrifice he would desire?

What purpose does it accomplish, God essentially beginning and ending with the exact same thing; how would that change God's view of someone else? It makes no sense; there is no actual exchange.

Aside that this confirms the assertions of many from earlier - myself included- that there's no actual sacrifice going on here....

It unintentionally reminds us that God does not even see us as capable of satisfying his own requirement of us; and, since he KNOWS we can't satisfy that need, what sense does it make for us to demand it of us in the first place?

 

[Thief]

As an example:
your response here is irrational. First, you aren't even answering the question in the context it was asked: how is God, giving something back to himself, a sacrifice he would desire?

What purpose does it accomplish, God essentially beginning and ending with the exact same thing; how would that change God's view of someone else? It makes no sense; there is no actual exchange.

Aside that this confirms the assertions of many from earlier - myself included- that there's no actual sacrifice going on here....

It unintentionally reminds us that God does not even see us as capable of satisfying his own requirement of us; and, since he KNOWS we can't satisfy that need, what sense does it make for us to demand it of us in the first place?

So don't think about it that way.

After you surrender your last breath that urge to stand up will still be there.
Go for it.

But when you do, your expectation will be waiting for you.
If you believe in nothing...there you go.

Sacrifice?...
If I wanted to be in a position to help others as they crossover...
The best place would be.... standing over them when they die.
The have that position...I would have to die first.

Someone once said....
"I go before you to prepare a place for you"

That's not always a good thing.

 

[Quantrill]

dude..
i got some land in malibu california...want to by it? it's cheap about $50,000 for 10 acres.
just deposit the cash into my paypal account because i say i have land and i will send you the deed as soon as you transfer the $$$ because i said i would.

so you believe me because i say i would?
cool?

No, I don't believe you at all. I do believe God however.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

How so? Do you mean to say there is a logical contradiction between those three attributes and allowing sin to go unjudged? Formulate it.

No contridiction at all. God cannot cease to be Himself. Pretty easy really.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

A shallow escape clause on your part.

I have to address you where you are.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Then god is not omnipotent, because there is something he cannot do.

No, again, God cannot cease to be Himself. That doesn't affect His omipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence.

He remains God.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

No son. It's not the definition of forgiveness; thus, it's not forgiveness.

You see, you want to apply the word 'forgiveness' to it, because you want it to be that; forgiveness is a good attribute. In your mind, God can only have positive attributes. Even if his actions disprove them.

but since you have defined what it actually is that God does, we can see it's not forgiveness. If it isn't human forgiveness, it's something different. This is just an Orwellian attempt at calling slavery freedom, or tyranny justice.

Words have actual definitions, you see.

I go by God's definitions of 'forgiveness' and how it works. Not yours, son. If you cant' grasp that, then move on. Or, show me where I am wrong in the Scriptures. Not where Im wrong in your type of 'forgiveness'.

Quantrill

 

[Heathen Hammer]

No, again, God cannot cease to be Himself. That doesn't affect His omipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence.

He remains God.

Quantrill

His inability to do something human parents for example, do everyday, does actually make him 'not omnipotent'

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I go by God's definitions of 'forgiveness' and how it works. Not yours, son. If you cant' grasp that, then move on. Or, show me where I am wrong in the Scriptures. Not where Im wrong in your type of 'forgiveness'.

I do grasp it. You're simply wrong. Your scriptures don't need to be provided to show you that forgiveness as defined, isn't your God's definition.

Can you grasp that?

lol 'my type of forgiveness'

You mean 'forgiveness'

 

[Quantrill]

His inability to do something human parents for example, do everyday, does actually make him 'not omnipotent'

God has no inability.

Quantrill

 

[Thief]

I have to address you where you are.

Quantrill

So now you might be willing to support your previous assertion of more than one Eden?

Or maybe that's where you think I am?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

God has no inability.

Quantrill

You're contradicting yourself then
Why is he unable to just forgive?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

But at least, as the thread plays out we are gathering a list of all the contradictions in your God hypothesis

God has no inability
Can't just forgive

God gives something to himself
Calls it 'sacrifice'

You guys basically need to redefine every single word to make God look even vaguely Good

.. or does 'Good' also have a different meaning?

 

[idav]

God has no inability
Can't just forgive

That would contradict the scriptures. God forgave David and he was a ho.

God gives something to himself
Calls it 'sacrifice'

It never says that god the father needed to sacrifice himself but it appears he sacrifices his children every now and again for whatever reason god sees fit.

 

[Koldo]

No, I mean to say, as I said, God cannot cease to be God. God cannot sin, or allow sin to go unjudged.

Quite simple really.

Quantrill

Why can't God allow sin to go unjudged?

You say it as if it were so obvious that i simply had to accept it.

I could very well say this: 'God cannot cease to be God, God can allow sin to go unjudged.'

So what?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

That would contradict the scriptures. God forgave David and he was a ho.

True! He sure got his shwerve on. But then he did grovel and plead and beg and wallow in the dirt on his belly like a worm, first. Hm.

It never says that god the father needed to sacrifice himself but it appears he sacrifices his children every now and again for whatever reason god sees fit.

And since his son is really just him... self..... WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

 

[idav]

True! He sure got his shwerve on. But then he did grovel and plead and beg and wallow in the dirt on his belly like a worm, first. Hm.

There are several examples of prophets doing misdeeds and being forgiven. Abraham was righteous for trying to sacrifice his own son and was forgiven for fathering with his maid.

And since his son is really just him... self..... WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

That's why I'm saying he didn't sacrifice himself. He was just allowing another one of his children to die which isn't much different than the usual.

Mainstream Christianity is wrong. Nothing in the bible says that god HAS to forgive in any certain manner in fact it has examples of forgiveness in several ways. Nothing in the bible suggests that the Father sacrificed himself, it says God gave up his son. The trinities answer of "it was his fully human portion" doesn't cut it.

 

[waitasec]

Why can't God allow sin to go unjudged?

You say it as if it were so obvious that i simply had to accept it.

I could very well say this: 'God cannot cease to be God, God can allow sin to go unjudged.'

So what?

when it comes to god, one can say anything really...