Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[waitasec]

If you want to hang around...say as they do, perform accordingly.
What's wrong with that?

where to begin...

9-11 for starters.

 

[Thief]

Its ridiculous to assert that God would somehow 'lose control over Heaven' if he were to forgive all the sinners. lol! Oh no! The hooligans in Heaven are rioting! What are they going to do, overturn and set fire to the clouds?

You followers all fail, and miserably I might add, at having your so-called 'discipline' here on Earth. What makes you think you'll have it in Heaven?

Any assertion about Heaven in the past is that there's no sin there. If there's no sin, it's because it's not allowed, not because suddenly you all find this miraculous ability to actually follow orders there, when you never could while alive. You will be robots in Heaven, doing only God's homage and singing hosanna. There is far more impetus to be sin-free here on Earth, because you don't yet have your reward. Once in Heaven, you have it, and the pressure is off, so it makes more logical sense to never sin on Earth. Because that's where the risk lies. An incredibly high and dangerous risk, I might add.

There's just so much empty Orwellian doublethink going on here, oh my.

So heaven is whatever.....

And one third of the angels never fell....there is no Adversary...

And with forgiveness for all, peace can still be held?

What you propose appears more to total chaos.
With all sin forgiven...I can speak of you as I please...do as I please...
and God won't mind?

Would you?

 

[Thief]

where to begin...

9-11 for starters.

And that takes the discussion to what point.

Try saying something....as if you believe in something

 

[fishy]

So heaven is whatever.....

And one third of the angels never fell....there is no Adversary...

And with forgiveness for all, peace can still be held?

What you propose appears more to total chaos.
With all sin forgiven...I can speak of you as I please...do as I please...
and God won't mind?

Would you?

Don't you get it? Letting everybody in ends up with the same result, nobody in heaven can sin. All are sinners, remember? You don't get a choice in heaven, you are rendered incapable of sin, by removing your free will. That is the only way heaven can be sinless. Or eliminate sin, therefore everything is acceptable in heaven.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

So heaven is whatever.....

And one third of the angels never fell....there is no Adversary...

And with forgiveness for all, peace can still be held?

What you propose appears more to total chaos.
With all sin forgiven...I can speak of you as I please...do as I please...
and God won't mind?

Would you?

You've really got zero grasp of what I propose. You carry on conversations with yourself, oblivious to others' actual input, it appears. This is 100% strawman.

the only person carrying on war or chaos in Heaven, is God. If everyone is forgiven, he has nothing further to complain about.

Forgiveness for all is the only, perfect path to peace. You simply hate that idea because all your posts are about the judgement and punishment of others. With you above such responsibility. It's well documented.

 

[Thief]

You've really got zero grasp of what I propose. You carry on conversations with yourself, oblivious to others' actual input, it appears. This is 100% strawman.

the only person carrying on war or chaos in Heaven, is God. If everyone is forgiven, he has nothing further to complain about.

Forgiveness for all is the only, perfect path to peace. You simply hate that idea because all your posts are about the judgement and punishment of others. With you above such responsibility. It's well documented.

Nay once more.

Forgiveness (and mercy) are disciplines.
And you don't bestow such grace unto those not worthy.

Punishment?....more like leave you where ever you fell.

Try putting yourself in the picture.
You fall down...your last breath escapes you....the angels appear.
If they like what they see, when you stand up...fine and good.
If not...
They will move away and leave you.
The devil behind you will laugh.

Did Jesus die for your sins?
Will you stand alone?

 

[Thief]

Don't you get it? Letting everybody in ends up with the same result, nobody in heaven can sin. All are sinners, remember? You don't get a choice in heaven, you are rendered incapable of sin, by removing your free will. That is the only way heaven can be sinless. Or eliminate sin, therefore everything is acceptable in heaven.

Letting everyone in makes heaven the same as earth....nothing more.
Peace on earth?...good will toward men?

We hardly have such things unto each other.

How many then are worthy to walk among angels?

Their choice, is it not?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Nay once more.

Forgiveness (and mercy) are disciplines.
And you don't bestow such grace unto those not worthy.

Punishment?....more like leave you where ever you fell.

Try putting yourself in the picture.
You fall down...your last breath escapes you....the angels appear.
If they like what they see, when you stand up...fine and good.
If not...
They will move away and leave you.
The devil behind you will laugh.

Did Jesus die for your sins?
Will you stand alone?

At this point in our interactions, you continuing to try placing me within the flawed paradigm of your own religion, when I have clearly stated I have my own, separate and distinct and thoroughly unconnected to your anecdotes, simply shows, again, that you carry on imaginary conversations with yourself.

Jesus never died for my sins, and by demonstration, he never died for yours, either.

 

[fishy]

Letting everyone in makes heaven the same as earth....nothing more.
Peace on earth?...good will toward men?

We hardly have such things unto each other.

How many then are worthy to walk among angels?

Their choice, is it not?

If we are all sinners, then how do we stop sinning in heaven if not through the options I proposed?

 

[waitasec]

And that takes the discussion to what point.

Try saying something....as if you believe in something

i'm explaining the faulty notion of

say as they do, perform accordingly

as if one does not have the ability to think for them self....unless they say as you do and act accordingly...is that right?



do try to catch up....'cause i'm way ahead of you.

 

[Thief]

At this point in our interactions, you continuing to try placing me within the flawed paradigm of your own religion, when I have clearly stated I have my own, separate and distinct and thoroughly unconnected to your anecdotes, simply shows, again, that you carry on imaginary conversations with yourself.

Jesus never died for my sins, and by demonstration, he never died for yours, either.

An incorrect assumption on your part...I have no religion.
(note banner)

Only your last line is correct.

 

[Thief]

If we are all sinners, then how do we stop sinning in heaven if not through the options I proposed?

You won't be able to hide what you think and feel.

Can you sin as the angels are watching?

 

[Thief]

i'm explaining the faulty notion of
as if one does not have the ability to think for them self....unless they say as you do and act accordingly...is that right?

do try to catch up....'cause i'm way ahead of you.

You're looking in the wrong direction.
Use a mirror.

 

[waitasec]

You're looking in the wrong direction.
Use a mirror.

why don't you...?
still
i'm explaining the faulty notion of

say as they do, perform accordingly

as if one does not have the ability to think for them self....unless they say as you do and act accordingly...is that right?

 

[fishy]

You won't be able to hide what you think and feel.

Can you sin as the angels are watching?

Ahh so it will be an Orwellian paradise, a paradise of fear. Now I get it.

 

[Thief]

Ahh so it will be an Orwellian paradise, a paradise of fear. Now I get it.

And you would suppose that fear, no longer resides in the spirit?

Fear of God....not permanent?

And to not fear God....you would need be, without sin?
Wouldn't want the Big Guy upset with you....right?

 

[fishy]

And you would suppose that fear, no longer resides in the spirit?

Fear of God....not permanent?

And to not fear fear God....you would need be, without sin?
Wouldn't want the Big Guy upset with you....right?

A paradise of fear, is that really paradise?

 

[idea]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

It's just a thought, if it does not really happen...

The difference between someone telling you "I love you enough to die for you" vs. someone actually dieing for you... If they don't actually do it, it's nothing but words...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
parable that explains why it was needed that I like...

Brother Skousen related an account from the Civil War which was instrumental for me in understanding the atonement. The account is as follows:

“There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.
She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.”

The reason that president Lincoln was not criticized for letting the 19yo off the hook was because a great sacrifice had been made. It was no longer about what the 19yo did, it was now about the sacrifice that was made by his mother. Like this little mother, our Heavenly Father has made a infinite and eternal sacrifice – He has given His only begotten Son that we might live. Justice demands that Heavenly Father be compensated for His great sacrifice, just as justice demanded that the little mother be compensated for her loss. Without the atonement, we would have just cause to refuse forgiveness to those who were unable to make recompense for their transgressions. With the atonement, there is just cause for everyone to forgive everyone else. We forgive one another because refusing forgiveness would be the same as refusing to acknowledge the great sacrifice that was made by our beloved Savior. The Atonement provides the way for all of us to be forgiven of our sins and live forever with God.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

The mythic image is all so powerful. The death of God for man. Sins being washed a way by that death of God. Mithras slaughtering a bull pales in comparison. Very powerful imagery, thats one of the reasons why Christianity became the dominate faith of the Roman Empire.

 

[Thief]

A paradise of fear, is that really paradise?

If you follow well enough, the fear will subside.
Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.
The fear will fade.

Otherwise, you are free.