Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[jasonwill2]

I am getting tired and bored so for the sake of time I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are sincere even if wrong. Regardless you still have not proven these claims. Saying other people believe them is not proof. Why don't you pick your most treasured pet problem with the old testament and we will get to the bottom of it.

....

Dude... I can't even express my utter... amazement.

Every-time I give you links you ignore then and refuse to look at them. Why should I give you proof if you will just keep ignoring it?

But actually I should correct myself: what I said about 500 BC applies to just the Torah, the rest was canonized later.

Development of the Hebrew Bible canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Thief]

well do you believe there is a hell and a heaven?

Picture a situation where everyone carries conversation like you do.

Heaven is not so much a place as it is a position.
Abide forever with people like yourself?......

 

[1robin]

....

Dude... I can't even express my utter... amazement.

Every-time I give you links you ignore then and refuse to look at them. Why should I give you proof if you will just keep ignoring it?

But actually I should correct myself: what I said about 500 BC applies to just the Torah, the rest was canonized later.

Development of the Hebrew Bible canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do nat have time to discuss the entire textual tradition of the bible. So I will say again pick a specific claim (preferably NT, there is more information for it) and we will discuss it. A specific claim not the old testament. I do not have time.

 

[1robin]

Picture a situation where everyone carries conversation like you do.

Heaven is not so much a place as it is a position.
Abide forever with people like yourself?......

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying so hard to say here. It is incoherent.

 

[waitasec]

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying so hard to say here. It is incoherent.

at least you and i can agree on this...

 

[waitasec]

I do now.

why did you buy into this idea then? as there is no way you can determine it to be true. except through faith, and if one is asked to do something through faith with out any evidence, i call :redcard:

 

[Orias]

How is that an issue?

If you've heard of Odysseus' Bow maybe you could understand.

If I determine that fulfilled prophecy is a way to establish a level of biblical accuracy then what is questionable about that. Either they were fulfilled in every detail or not.

Well every detail is irrelevant, because its the known one's that pull into our equations.

There is more too it than just black and white, Gods words are colorful.

These are not generic vague (Nostradams) prophecies.

Whats generic about vagueness?

Most are highly detailed including specific dates, locations, people, and even reasons why.

Doubtful.

Over 2,000 years landscapes change and people die. Not to mention the bible is literally numerically coded.

Or if I decided to verify every geographical location, name, title, structural reference, or natural occurance in the bible that can be verified.

By who?

Many scholars say there are 25,000 historical claims in the bible that can be verified. Is that a questionable tactic.

Considering many of the scholars are biblically spellbound, yes I would say it is a questionable tactic :bat:

The bible claims that every prohecy given in the original revelation of the bible is 100% accurate or God says twe should reject that biblical prophet. That is bold. It also uniquely requires and offers a spiritual experience that validates God's reality for an individual. If this was a false religion those two statements would have revealed that long ago. ETC......

I'm highly doubtful of all of this.

The bible cannot claim 100% accuracy and then also proceed to claim that God himself says we should reject that biblical prophet.

Thats all you my friend.

 

[sojourner]

Considering many of the scholars are biblically spellbound

Careful: Many are not. Most subject their work to rigorous peer review. Most valid scholarship makes a huge attempt to exegete correctly, with as little bias as possible.

 

[waitasec]

bump..

The atmosphere has a lot of levels too as well as the Empire State Building. But neither of them employ double-standards. Why should theology be any different?

the only issue i have with with this idea is that
i can't be on 2 different levels at once.

so either it is impossible to turn away from god or it isn't.

 

[Orias]

Careful: Many are not. Most subject their work to rigorous peer review. Most valid scholarship makes a huge attempt to exegete correctly, with as little bias as possible.

That's the ideal attitude.

But thats kind of like saying a video game tester doesn't play video games.

But then again, I hated working at Pizza Hut so...touché

 

[1robin]

why did you buy into this idea then? as there is no way you can determine it to be true. except through faith, and if one is asked to do something through faith with out any evidence, i call :redcard:

You accept many of the most profound and fundemental aspects of your life on faith. The majority of science has aspects of faith in it. All people do. Heck science itself is based on faith in universal rationality. Don't think for a minute your life is not absolutely full of faith. You just balk at faith when it is really important and obvious. Do you actually ever take a positive positionon anything or does your existence revolve around questioning some others persons actual stance on something.

 

[sojourner]

bump..

We are all on different levels at once. Therefore, it is possible, depening on your particular point of view.

On one level, we cannot "turn away from God," because We abide in God from one certain theological perspective. God is our very physical breath.

On another level, we can and do turn away from God, when our focus and perspective become centered on our own individuality, instead of being centered on God and the world of which we are inextricably part.

 

[waitasec]

We are all on different levels at once. Therefore, it is possible, depening on your particular point of view.

On one level, we cannot "turn away from God," because We abide in God from one certain theological perspective. God is our very physical breath.

On another level, we can and do turn away from God, when our focus and perspective become centered on our own individuality, instead of being centered on God and the world of which we are inextricably part.

i'm not talking about people as a unit...
i'm talking about a personal experience.
either no one can turn away from god
or god is capable of being turned away from
which would mean, god will not meet a person on their level.

 

[waitasec]

You accept many of the most profound and fundemental aspects of your life on faith.

like what?

 

[1robin]

like what?

Like I said in the other thread I am done with you but I will give you this one. You have faith that you won't have a wreck the next time you get in the car. Before you make the silly reply that you don't have faith that you have to drive and so do so, think about this. If you knew you would have a wreck you most certainly wouldn't leave. You have faith that your employer will not shoot you tomorrow. You do not know he won't but you believe it. If you didn't then you wouldn't go to work. You have faith when you go to sleep that you will wake up again in the same reality or at all. You don't know you will you believe you will or else you would stay awake and think things over quite a bit.

This faith reality is present in every important or mundane factor of yours and everyone elses life. However only some of us have the intelligence and honesty to admit it. A thousand decisions everyday are made by assuming an unproven conclusion. I'm done.

 

[Thief]

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying so hard to say here. It is incoherent.

Wasn't talking to you but...maybe this will help....
I quote myself from another thread...


For example....I've heard discussion that no matter what....we go to heaven.

THAT, I find hard to believe.

Picture yourself as Hitler....yes you can.
You make it through the gate and are escorted all around heaven.

Later that evening, you are invited to supper...with 'thirteen' others.
As you dip your bread in the bowl, a Carpenter is doing likewise.
You turn to use another bowl...and Judas is doing so as well.

(note the.... 'look in the eye'.... part)

Sounds like fun!....don't you think so!

 

[1robin]

Wasn't talking to you but...maybe this will help....
I quote myself from another thread...


For example....I've heard discussion that no matter what....we go to heaven.

THAT, I find hard to believe.

Picture yourself as Hitler....yes you can.
You make it through the gate and are escorted all around heaven.

Later that evening, you are invited to supper...with 'thirteen' others.
As you dip your bread in the bowl, a Carpenter is doing likewise.
You turn to use another bowl...and Judas is doing so as well.

(note the.... 'look in the eye'.... part)

Sounds like fun!....don't you think so!

Now I know why I didn't understand it. It makes no sence is based on nothing substantial and opposes very substantial doctrine. Serves no purpose and makes no point. I am sorry I asked. You probably found it hard to believe because it isn't true.

 

[waitasec]

Like I said in the other thread I am done with you but I will give you this one. You have faith that you won't have a wreck the next time you get in the car.

actually i don't have faith that i won't get into a car wreck...the probability of me getting into a wreck is pretty high.

Before you make the silly reply that you don't have faith that you have to drive and so do so, think about this. If you knew you would have a wreck you most certainly wouldn't leave.

there is no way of knowing...however as i said before the odds of me getting into a wreck are high, i'm not going to live in fear and let that fear deter me getting out of the house to meet my friends for happy hour...

You have faith that your employer will not shoot you tomorrow. You do not know he won't but you believe it. If you didn't then you wouldn't go to work.

being that i'm self employed...i don't intend on killing myself.
other than that, the point is no one ever knows what the guy sitting behind you at a movie theatre is thinking either.

You have faith when you go to sleep that you will wake up again in the same reality or at all. You don't know you will you believe you will or else you would stay awake and think things over quite a bit.

your right i don't know, so?

This faith reality is present in every important or mundane factor of yours and everyone elses life. However only some of us have the intelligence and honesty to admit it. A thousand decisions everyday are made by assuming an unproven conclusion. I'm done.

good cause that was lame.
see what you fail to realize in such a profound way is, i know this is my only shot at living, so maybe i don't take the here and now for granted as much as one who has faith in the hereafter may...


seems like you use fear and faith interchangeably ...

how sad for you.

 

[sojourner]

i'm not talking about people as a unit...
i'm talking about a personal experience.
either no one can turn away from god
or god is capable of being turned away from
which would mean, god will not meet a person on their level.

It is possible to either intentionally or unintentionally fail to recognize or acknowledge God's presence. It is possible to become focused on ourselves as central to our experience.

However, that doesn't mean that our lack of recognition or acknowledgement negates God's presence.

 

[waitasec]

It is possible to either intentionally or unintentionally fail to recognize or acknowledge God's presence. It is possible to become focused on ourselves as central to our experience.

However, that doesn't mean that our lack of recognition or acknowledgement negates God's presence.

but isn't that from the persons POV?

god is everywhere, i'm not talking linearly in time but ...on all levels...whenever we arrive or he's not there when we arrive...
therefore it is impossible to turn away from god
but if he isn't everywhere on all levels at the same time waiting for our arrival it is possible

it's one or the other.