Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[sojourner]

wait, does that mean god is limited within his own mind?

No it simply means that we're asking the wrong question from the wrong perspective.

 

[waitasec]

No it simply means that we're asking the wrong question from the wrong perspective.

there is no wrong perspective.

 

[waitasec]

Even if it is then it is not an unjust one. He gives you what you want. I need to clarify something that I didn't have a reason to say earlier. His gift of freewill is only given for a period of time. He decides when that arrangement is to be terminated, and then he gives you what you chose. I do not know if freewill exists for the ones who do not chose him. I will guess yes but in a limited form. The only life you have to answer for is yours. You spend all your time desperately looking for a problem with God. When your time is up how could you hope that you could live forever in the presence of a God who loved you and you rejected over and over. I don't say any of this to be hurtful. I do it because I know it is true even though my experience does not suffice as proof for anyone else. I actually care about people and so talk to anyone that will listen and explain that nomatter what kind of philosophy or scientific counterclaim anyone uses it will be of no use at the judgement. I honestly and truly believe it. I at one time hated the idea of Christianity and understand all the reluctance to faith and the arguments against it. Since I have been on both sides I have an understanding you have no access to. If you were not so rabidly biased against it you might just discover a pearl of infinate value. However I am expecting your next inaccurate counter QUESTION. Make it a good one I have about had it.

this is meaningless because you and i do not apply the same criteria to determine if this is either true or just pure malarky.
you go by faith...i go by empirical evidence.


ps
i've been on both sides too.

pss
the problem is the double standard god presents...
i hate double standards.

 

[1robin]

this is meaningless because you and i do not apply the same criteria to determine if this is either true or just pure malarky.
you go by faith...i go by empirical evidence.

God is real or not independant of your standard. As I have shown whether you except it or not a great amount of what you accept as true is actually based more on faith than proof. Your standard is insuffecient to examine or consider supernatural issues. You need a new one.

ps
i've been on both sides too.

I seriously doubt that. IMO that is an virtually impossable.

pss
the problem is the double standard god presents...
i hate double standards.

You seem to hate quite a lot of things. Even if your statements were true that has absolutely no bearing on whether God exists or not.

 

[waitasec]

God is real or not independant of your standard. As I have shown whether you except it or not a great amount of what you accept as true is actually based more on faith than proof. Your standard is insuffecient to examine or consider supernatural issues. You need a new one.

your standard is based on faith
my standard is based on evidence.

I seriously doubt that. IMO that is an virtually impossable.

why?
people can change...

You seem to hate quite a lot of things. Even if your statements were true that has absolutely no bearing on whether God exists or not.

you like double standards?

interesting

 

[Orias]

I seriously doubt that. IMO that is an virtually impossable.

I've been on both sides, I still consider myself on both sides.

Call me crazy or a POE, I simply say you don't feel like thinking that much or you feel threatened.

Not you specifically, but I think understanding at points should be so evident.

Even single sided swords can still pose as a liability to the wielder. Metaphorically or literally, few actually know when they are being tested.

Few even care to make the list...

 

[Thief]

Standards of evidence in a theological debate....yeah right.

So many times I've said so....
no photo...no fingerprints...no equations...no experiments...

When it comes to God...
you just have to think about it.

 

[sojourner]

there is no wrong perspective.

Oh? Looking at things from the wrong perspective has allowed us to exploit our planet to the brink of ruin and dehumanize countless groups of human beings, leading to the slaughter of millions.

 

[waitasec]

Oh? Looking at things from the wrong perspective has allowed us to exploit our planet to the brink of ruin and dehumanize countless groups of human beings, leading to the slaughter of millions.

there is no wrong perspective. if there is then god is limited to perspective.
not a sign of an all encompassing god

and


no wonder religion and the hunger for power and greed has exploited our planet and it's inhabitants to the brink of ruin by dehumanizing countless groups of people leading slaughter to the many.

 

[sojourner]

there is no wrong perspective. if there is then god is limited to perspective.
not a sign of an all encompassing god

Can you elaborate on this?

no wonder religion and the hunger for power and greed has exploited our planet and it's inhabitants to the brink of ruin by dehumanizing countless groups of people leading slaughter to the many.

What do you mean by "no wonder?"

 

[waitasec]

Can you elaborate on this?

if god is all around us there can be no wrong perspective
sort of like, there is no wrong perspective of the air we breath or the water we are swimming in.

What do you mean by "no wonder?"

when one expects something that can not be defined it's no wonder our expectations are not met because we defined something that isn't definable

 

[helpmeplease]

In response to the thread title.
Why would an all powerful god require any sacrifice at all in order that he remove the punishment he imposed in the first place? Just lift his curse, not rocket science, especially for an all powerful god. Or did he need his ego massaged by having his son murdered?

 

[waitasec]

In response to the thread title.
Why would an all powerful god require any sacrifice at all in order that he remove the punishment he imposed in the first place? Just lift his curse, not rocket science, especially for an all powerful god. Or did he need his ego massaged by having his son murdered?

because god isn't a god that can change his mind?
:sarcastic

 

[sojourner]

if god is all around us there can be no wrong perspective
sort of like, there is no wrong perspective of the air we breath or the water we are swimming in.

If you think you can breathe water or swim in the air, feel free. You'll find out about wrong perspective right away!

when one expects something that can not be defined it's no wonder our expectations are not met because we defined something that isn't definable

It's because of the wrong perspective of who we are, what the world is, and how we are related to other people that has allowed us to do these things. Your philosophy is very nice -- and I agree with it -- but it doesn't really speak to the issue of wrong perspective.

 

[sojourner]

In response to the thread title.
Why would an all powerful god require any sacrifice at all in order that he remove the punishment he imposed in the first place? Just lift his curse, not rocket science, especially for an all powerful god. Or did he need his ego massaged by having his son murdered?

God didn't.

 

[jasonwill2]

I do nat have time to discuss the entire textual tradition of the bible. So I will say again pick a specific claim (preferably NT, there is more information for it) and we will discuss it. A specific claim not the old testament. I do not have time.

So I can pick "any" claim? Ok, here's once.
Claim CA652:

"f physical human death was not really an important part of the penalty for sin, then the agonizingly cruel physical death of Christ on the cross was not necessary to pay that penalty, and thus would be gross miscarriage of justice on God's part." Source:

Morris, Henry M. 2000. The vital importance of believing in recent creation. Back to Genesis 138 (June): a-c.
Response:

1. The claim is a non sequitur. According to creationists, God instituted the penalties for sin. If God has any power to speak of, he could have withdrawn the penalties whenever he wanted. Neither Christ's life nor his death would have been necessary. This is true whether or not the penalty for sin included physical death. It is not for us to say what is necessary for God to do.
   
   
2. If physical death was part of the penalty for sin, then Christ did not pay that penalty because physical death is still with us.
   
   
3. Origins are not determined by one's personal decision of what religion to follow.

link: CA652: Christ's death if physical death was not the penalty for sin.


Unless you wanted me to use one of your specific claims you made in this topic? Also this does seem to be on the matter of Christ dying, so bonus points.

 

[waitasec]

God didn't.

john 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life —only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

 

[waitasec]

If you think you can breathe water or swim in the air, feel free. You'll find out about wrong perspective right away!

i know i can't breathe water because i have empirically experienced that it's a painful experience...water can speak for itself...your definition of god cannot which is why one has to come to terms with the short falls of definitions of a concept that is undefinable.

It's because of the wrong perspective of who we are, what the world is, and how we are related to other people that has allowed us to do these things. Your philosophy is very nice -- and I agree with it -- but it doesn't really speak to the issue of wrong perspective.

no we don't have a wrong perspective of who we are because we are who we are at the moment we are.

that's like telling a toddler, sorry your wrong for trying to attempt to reach something that is not possible for them to grasp

perspectives are truths not wrongs.

 

[sojourner]

john 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life —only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Did you read the part about "my own accord?"

 

[sojourner]

no we don't have a wrong perspective of who we are because we are who we are at the moment we are.

Unless we think we're something that we're not -- like a fish, for example, or a superior race.