Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[jasonwill2]

Where do you get all your theology? Is it one source or many?

The answer to that seriously depends on what parts you are talking about. The part about the "Self" and the denial of it? The actual metaphysics of god, or of spirits? Or what constitutes sin in the first place?

Some parts are from a single source, other parts are from multiple sources. Still some of it is my own constructs.


The thing about religion is that they are all best-guesses. No religion is 100% incorrect. Instead of trying to find absolute spiritual truth, I seek out the least-wrong truth. All religious doctrines are "best guesses", and so I make my best guesses based on information and science.

But even if my beliefs are metaphysically wrong, and indeed I bet parts are and will be changed in the future as I grow, the applicable parts still lay out a very pragmatic and realistic approach to both life and magic. And since the practice of magic is part of my life, it all works out. I can't tell you how greatly the use of magic and my beliefs have helped me. It got me to stop cutting, get the moral to get my G.E.D. and then a ritual helped me get insanely high scores, magic directly got me a job at the first place I applied, and Satan has helped me build back up my self-worth after I attempted suicide last June.

I would say that the god that DIDN'T claim to come and save me has saved me much more than Christ ever did. And if anything is the measure of truth, it is it's success in fixing problems and predicting things. This is true in both science and life, and my religion does both of those for me.


I don't know about Jesus and if he intended to die or not for people's sins, but either way he must of died in vain, because he certainly didn't have the power to help me in my struggles, and my wrestles with my inner "demons". In fact the whole point of Jesus having to die for us to be forgiven is vicious in itself. A god, that either by nature or by choice, that requires the shedding of blood for him to forgive us, is petty and cruel.


People always tell me, most of all Chrisitans, that forgiveness is not about the other person asking it, it's about you giving it, it's an act that you do and you can't wait for them to apologize to be forgiven, you just forgive. Why can't the Christian god do the same? It's not about US realizing he's wrong, it's not up to us what HE does, only HE can forgive us. So why do we need to ask him? I always told people that I wouldn't forgive someone unless they asked, and my reasoning was "because god doesn't either", but obviously that didn't go over well

Then later I realized that any infinite god that so pettily holds onto finite crimes in our temporal lives must either not be good, or must not be the real god. I chose the latter option, and then a year to a year-and-a-half after leaving Christianity I came into Satanism, and I will never be happier but in this moment to say on the subject:

"Jesus didn't die for me, you, or anyone else. If he even died at all it was to further a god's own agenda."

 

[Thief]

The thing about religion is that they are all best-guesses. No religion is 100% incorrect. Instead of trying to find absolute spiritual truth, I seek out the least-wrong truth. All religious doctrines are "best guesses", and so I make my best guesses based on information and science.

"Jesus didn't die for me, you, or anyone else. If he even died at all it was to further a god's own agenda."

I would agree with you....and have stated in similar fashion in this thread.

The difference....would be God's agenda.

Life in this world seems to have discipline issues, and for rejection of those issues you sought personal harm.
You escaped such harm and changed your discipline.

That would have nothing to do with God or His Adversary.
That was you.

Follow anyone you care to....or no one.
As a rogue theologian I follow no one, no one follows me.

As for believing someone else died that my sins vanish?...nay.
Each to his own and the consequences that follow.

 

[1robin]

The answer to that seriously depends on what parts you are talking about. The part about the "Self" and the denial of it? The actual metaphysics of god, or of spirits? Or what constitutes sin in the first place?

Some parts are from a single source, other parts are from multiple sources. Still some of it is my own constructs.


The thing about religion is that they are all best-guesses. No religion is 100% incorrect. Instead of trying to find absolute spiritual truth, I seek out the least-wrong truth. All religious doctrines are "best guesses", and so I make my best guesses based on information and science.

But even if my beliefs are metaphysically wrong, and indeed I bet parts are and will be changed in the future as I grow, the applicable parts still lay out a very pragmatic and realistic approach to both life and magic. And since the practice of magic is part of my life, it all works out. I can't tell you how greatly the use of magic and my beliefs have helped me. It got me to stop cutting, get the moral to get my G.E.D. and then a ritual helped me get insanely high scores, magic directly got me a job at the first place I applied, and Satan has helped me build back up my self-worth after I attempted suicide last June.

I would say that the god that DIDN'T claim to come and save me has saved me much more than Christ ever did. And if anything is the measure of truth, it is it's success in fixing problems and predicting things. This is true in both science and life, and my religion does both of those for me.


I don't know about Jesus and if he intended to die or not for people's sins, but either way he must of died in vain, because he certainly didn't have the power to help me in my struggles, and my wrestles with my inner "demons". In fact the whole point of Jesus having to die for us to be forgiven is vicious in itself. A god, that either by nature or by choice, that requires the shedding of blood for him to forgive us, is petty and cruel.


People always tell me, most of all Chrisitans, that forgiveness is not about the other person asking it, it's about you giving it, it's an act that you do and you can't wait for them to apologize to be forgiven, you just forgive. Why can't the Christian god do the same? It's not about US realizing he's wrong, it's not up to us what HE does, only HE can forgive us. So why do we need to ask him? I always told people that I wouldn't forgive someone unless they asked, and my reasoning was "because god doesn't either", but obviously that didn't go over well

Then later I realized that any infinite god that so pettily holds onto finite crimes in our temporal lives must either not be good, or must not be the real god. I chose the latter option, and then a year to a year-and-a-half after leaving Christianity I came into Satanism, and I will never be happier but in this moment to say on the subject:

"Jesus didn't die for me, you, or anyone else. If he even died at all it was to further a god's own agenda."

Are you claiming that you can use magic as in a supernatural force controlled by you to change the physical world? How can you legitimatly prove Christ did not die for anyone else? (that means no personal opinion just facts or as close as possible). Since everything about you indicates that you never had a personal relationship with Jesus then why do you suppose that he should have helped you with anything in the past? You seemed to be confused about the reasons God sent Christ to die and the bible states why you don't understand..New International Version (©1984)
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. And "'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:9). The reason God chose to redeem men this way is there is greater example of love and benevolence than for a man to give his life willingly for his fellow man. It was proof of the compassion of God. Can you dream up any act more benevolent than an individual could do that would display selfless love. Regardless of how your much dislike of God warps the facts into something ugly, calvary will always be an example of how much God cares.
I have been a student of spritual warfare for years. I have watched or read hundreds of cases of people who became involved with ungodly entities. I have never heard of a single one that ended well unless they were delivered from their influence. Your recording benefits of your association with these spirits is somewhat typical. There have been many cases where they produce things benifical to people to gain access and influence. Their nature makes it sure that every act benificial or not is only a step towards possessing and destroying as many people as possible.
I did not mean anything I said to be insulting only direct and honest. I hope you will not be offended. As it is not everyday I can have a discussion with an admitted satanist I value the opportunity.

Selah

 

[Jacksnyte]

Well...since we Jews don't think such a thing as "dying for our sins" is possible, our answer is "no."

Research the origins of the term "scapegoat", and say that again...

 

[jasonwill2]

Are you claiming that you can use magic as in a supernatural force controlled by you to change the physical world? How can you legitimatly prove Christ did not die for anyone else? (that means no personal opinion just facts or as close as possible). Since everything about you indicates that you never had a personal relationship with Jesus then why do you suppose that he should have helped you with anything in the past? You seemed to be confused about the reasons God sent Christ to die and the bible states why you don't understand..New International Version (©1984)
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. And "'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isaiah 55:9). The reason God chose to redeem men this way is there is greater example of love and benevolence than for a man to give his life willingly for his fellow man. It was proof of the compassion of God. Can you dream up any act more benevolent than an individual could do that would display selfless love. Regardless of how your much dislike of God warps the facts into something ugly, calvary will always be an example of how much God cares.
I have been a student of spritual warfare for years. I have watched or read hundreds of cases of people who became involved with ungodly entities. I have never heard of a single one that ended well unless they were delivered from their influence. Your recording benefits of your association with these spirits is somewhat typical. There have been many cases where they produce things benifical to people to gain access and influence. Their nature makes it sure that every act benificial or not is only a step towards possessing and destroying as many people as possible.
I did not mean anything I said to be insulting only direct and honest. I hope you will not be offended. As it is not everyday I can have a discussion with an admitted satanist I value the opportunity.

Selah

Do I believe I can use supernatural magic to make changes in the physical world?

Yes and no: It is not supernatural, it is completely natural. The physical world? That kind of magical act would require more energy than a human mind can create, so instead magic is directed at the minds of other people and/or myself to affect events. Though I guess I could always try some daemons or gods for help if I wanted too...

The Thing about Jesus?

You cannot know what is in my heart or what was, you think you can know anything about me because you read one of my posts? What? You think you can really know about my spiritual life? Christianity claims Jesus came to save the world, so that who ever believes in him, confesses their sins, and repents shall be born again and escape the second death in Hell as the new spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, enters them and gives them a new nature to overtake their old sin nature. Now some say you need to confess his death, burial and Resurrection too, but I'm not sure about that being canon per se. Surely you can see from this that I completely understand the alleged reasons for why Jesus came...


Also your god simply saying "It's too complex and you won't understand because I made you idiots" isn't an excuse. He did not do an act of love, for he created the things that became the all alleged fall and sin. It's like a dad let's his kid run out in the highway and says "I want them to have the choice to obey me or not, and if they do they will live, but if they don't I'll let them get hit by a truck and die." But worst of all? This dad approved the road company to put the highway completely around their house in a circle, knowing full-well his kids would, by their very sinful nature, be compelled to run into the highway. This is exactly what your god has claimed he has done. Now obviously a dad who gives kids the choice to obey him when he tells them to not run in the highway is disgusting. What he should is yank them up and force them not to run in the street if he truly loves them, because then he will care enough to do what's best for them even if they don't like it. If the Bible is taken as truth for what it says, it paints an evil and un-caring god who just wants to weed out whoever doesn't want to worship him for eternity in a derogatory relationship.

My gods bring me to their level, raising me up. They don't push me down like your god did.


About "ungodly forces"?


Foolishness; the powers I invoke are not ungoldy... they are godly because THEY ARE GOD; Ha-Satan himself, who is God/Universe incarnate into a spirit, that resides not just in our flesh, but in the entire world.

And yes, I am offended, because you speak of propaganda, lies, and slander against my god. You call the god of our flesh, the very creator/universe itsself in spirit form a liar, a killer, a thief and a lion looking for who he can "devour... you call him the prince of lies and a murderer from the beginning, and an evil creature who seeks worship... all these things are not true, especially the last. If the last was true, Satanists would try to convert people... but that is against the very idea of what being a Satanist is, as we are born, not made.

Also I highly doubt that the "bad things" you speak of that happened to these people were because of the powers at hand, most likely you are talking about just some tragic event that happened in their life, and you casually attribute it to their faith... typical of Christian Apologetics to make casual connections to "prove" their faith. There have been many, many people who have been Satanists/Left Hand Path/ w/e that have followed their chosen path and lived a very long and productive life without any undoing.

Also I am completely aware of those verses about it being foolishness to the "unsaved". Guess what? That's an easy way of saying that people who are not conditioned to accept x doctrine will realize that x doctrine is nonsense. It only makes sense to the "saved" due to the exploitation of flaws in people's thinking, leading to things that are not logical or are nonsensical to begin with.

 

[1robin]

Do I believe I can use supernatural magic to make changes in the physical world?

Yes and no: It is not supernatural, it is completely natural. The physical world? That kind of magical act would require more energy than a human mind can create, so instead magic is directed at the minds of other people and/or myself to affect events. Though I guess I could always try some daemons or gods for help if I wanted too...

Can you give me a couple of examples of this magic that have a nature that warrants the label of magic?

The Thing about Jesus?

You cannot know what is in my heart or what was, you think you can know anything about me because you read one of my posts? What? You think you can really know about my spiritual life? Christianity claims Jesus came to save the world, so that who ever believes in him, confesses their sins, and repents shall be born again and escape the second death in Hell as the new spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, enters them and gives them a new nature to overtake their old sin nature. Now some say you need to confess his death, burial and Resurrection too, but I'm not sure about that being canon per se. Surely you can see from this that I completely understand the alleged reasons for why Jesus came...

This was confusing. I simply deduced the fact that a truly born again Chrisian would not participate in virtually ever activity Christ warned against, and support that which he condemned, and would view what Christ refered to as evil, as good. You as much as said you are not a born again believer, was I incorrect? If you claim to be a born again person which has the holy spirit within him then just say so, while I can't even fathom that possability I would have no choice but to take your word for it.

Also your god simply saying "It's too complex and you won't understand because I made you idiots" isn't an excuse. He did not do an act of love, for he created the things that became the all alleged fall and sin. It's like a dad let's his kid run out in the highway and says "I want them to have the choice to obey me or not, and if they do they will live, but if they don't I'll let them get hit by a truck and die." But worst of all? This dad approved the road company to put the highway completely around their house in a circle, knowing full-well his kids would, by their very sinful nature, be compelled to run into the highway. This is exactly what your god has claimed he has done. Now obviously a dad who gives kids the choice to obey him when he tells them to not run in the highway is disgusting. What he should is yank them up and force them not to run in the street if he truly loves them, because then he will care enough to do what's best for them even if they don't like it. If the Bible is taken as truth for what it says, it paints an evil and un-caring god who just wants to weed out whoever doesn't want to worship him for eternity in a derogatory relationship.

God never said what you attributed to him. It is just common sense that an finite mind could not fully comprehend an infinite mind, it's just that simple. It's meaningless to compare God to a human dad. Why do you think your subjective morality is suffecient to judge God? To what standard do you appeal to justify this judement? The fact that a person hates God and distorts what God has done to fit this preconcieved notion has no effect on whether it is true or not

My gods bring me to their level, raising me up. They don't push me down like your god did

My personal experiences with God's holy spirit have been of such a loving, forgiveing, freeing nature that I am convinced your statement is without merit or truth. It's just the thrashing of a rebelious mind.

About "ungodly forces"?


Foolishness; the powers I invoke are not ungoldy... they are godly because THEY ARE GOD; Ha-Satan himself, who is God/Universe incarnate into a spirit, that resides not just in our flesh, but in the entire world.

Can you quote the statements and sources of this bizarre illogical claim?

And yes, I am offended, because you speak of propaganda, lies, and slander against my god. You call the god of our flesh, the very creator/universe itsself in spirit form a liar, a killer, a thief and a lion looking for who he can "devour... you call him the prince of lies and a murderer from the beginning, and an evil creature who seeks worship... all these things are not true, especially the last. If the last was true, Satanists would try to convert people... but that is against the very idea of what being a Satanist is, as we are born, not made.

I am sorry you were offended. If it is because of insult I inadvertenly gave I apologize. If because the truth offends you then I do not. Your "god" who was created by the Christian God didn't create anything but misery. Why do you think whatever fringe pseudotheology you go by is more reliable than the bible?

Also I highly doubt that the "bad things" you speak of that happened to these people were because of the powers at hand, most likely you are talking about just some tragic event that happened in their life, and you casually attribute it to their faith... typical of Christian Apologetics to make casual connections to "prove" their faith. There have been many, many people who have been Satanists/Left Hand Path/ w/e that have followed their chosen path and lived a very long and productive life without any undoing.

I have heard dozens from of people their own mouth say that they attributed their misery and trouble as a direct result of their involvement with demonic forces. Their descriptions of the details of events were perfectly consistent with biblical warnings.

Also I am completely aware of those verses about it being foolishness to the "unsaved". Guess what? That's an easy way of saying that people who are not conditioned to accept x doctrine will realize that x doctrine is nonsense. It only makes sense to the "saved" due to the exploitation of flaws in people's thinking, leading to things that are not logical or are nonsensical to begin with.

Some of the most intelligent, logicical, stable, and respected people in history have believed what you dismiss. Many went on to live selfless lives of great merit that they attributed to their faith. Many are the pioneers of major scientific disciplines (Newton, pascal, pasture etc........) It is quite entertaining when a person who follows the most widely accepted ultimate form of evil accuses the Christian of having a flaw in their thinking. When the most studied, respected, cherished book ever written condemns your "god" and all who follow him, how do you justify ingoring this in favor of something far less substantiated?

 

[PolyHedral]

When the most studied, respected, cherished book ever written condemns your "god" and all who follow him, how do you justify ingoring this in favor of something far less substantiated?

"My argument is better than theirs."
You've just used an argument from authority, which holds no weight with people who know their logic.

 

[jasonwill2]

Color added to help show what parts I am responding too.

Can you give me a couple of examples of this magic that have a nature that warrants the label of magic?

This was confusing. I simply deduced the fact that a truly born again Chrisian would not participate in virtually ever activity Christ warned against, and support that which he condemned, and would view what Christ refered to as evil, as good. You as much as said you are not a born again believer, was I incorrect? If you claim to be a born again person which has the holy spirit within him then just say so, while I can't even fathom that possability I would have no choice but to take your word for it.


God never said what you attributed to him. It is just common sense that an finite mind could not fully comprehend an infinite mind, it's just that simple. It's meaningless to compare God to a human dad. Why do you think your subjective morality is suffecient to judge God? To what standard do you appeal to justify this judement? The fact that a person hates God and distorts what God has done to fit this preconcieved notion has no effect on whether it is true or not

My personal experiences with God's holy spirit have been of such a loving, forgiveing, freeing nature that I am convinced your statement is without merit or truth. It's just the thrashing of a rebelious mind.


Can you quote the statements and sources of this bizarre illogical claim?
I am sorry you were offended. If it is because of insult I inadvertenly gave I apologize. If because the truth offends you then I do not. Your "god" who was created by the Christian God didn't create anything but misery. Why do you think whatever fringe pseudotheology you go by is more reliable than the bible?

I have heard dozens from of people their own mouth say that they attributed their misery and trouble as a direct result of their involvement with demonic forces. Their descriptions of the details of events were perfectly consistent with biblical warnings.



Some of the most intelligent, logicical, stable, and respected people in history have believed what you dismiss. Many went on to live selfless lives of great merit that they attributed to their faith. Many are the pioneers of major scientific disciplines (Newton, pascal, pasture etc........) It is quite entertaining when a person who follows the most widely accepted ultimate form of evil accuses the Christian of having a flaw in their thinking. When the most studied, respected, cherished book ever written condemns your "god" and all who follow him, how do you justify ingoring this in favor of something far less substantiated?

1. I gave you many before hand, for example I got amazing scores on my G.E.D... with no prepreation otherwise... I got in the top 1% nationally in 4 out of 5 of the test batteries, NATIONALLY. Also I have had experiences with Succubi that were magical in nature (literally and metaphorically =p) ( a specific type of d(a)emon).

2. I used to be a Christian, then I left it for deism/quasi-gnosticism before settling down with Satanism about a year to year-and-a-half after leaving Christianity. So I was once "saved', but rejected that. Read my signature, it clearly states that I renounced the Trinity. According The Christian Bible "blaspheming" the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, and so I did just that and made a rejection of the three persons to cut the metaphysical link to your god a number of months later after I became a Satanist.

3. It's meaningless to compare him to a dad? What about "God The Father", all the Bible verses comparing him to a father, as well as all the analogies Christians give! That's the number one analogy for god! (unless you count the one about Jesus and a Shepard... but also him as a lamb too now that I think of it).

4. More like a betrayed mind that has been set free to the truth that your god isn't very nice... and that he isn't god.

5. Because there is not absolute religious truth, because all we have is best guesses, and I would rather have a less-false belief than a more false one. There are only false and less false religious and spiritual truths. The Bible says nonsense like the Universe and world is 6,000 years old, when virtually all evidence points to it being at least 13 billion years old. Simply put, The Christian Bible falls terribly short when put under scrutiny. Sure, there are a lot of historical contexts, The Old Testament Kingdoms and wars in particular, but it's like Fox News... it only gives a very rough idea of what was happening and is filled with half-truths. I'm not saying it was all made up. Surely many cities talked about and existed, but for example I doubt Sodom and Gomorrah for example were destroyed by your god, but I don't doubt for example that the Israelites fought the Philistines and other such groups in many wars. But there are still a lot of claims in The Christian Bible that are either just impossible or outright contradict all the evidence.

Also you wouldn't read my sources, they are Satanic in nature and you wouldn't want to "corrupt yourself", and so I doubt you would read them anyway. Some things I take from The Satanic Bible, some from people like Diane Vera, other ideas I get from science, and still some is intuition/inspiration. I take what works as beliefs to work from for practicing my religion both in a magical sense and in a mundane sense.

6. I seriously doubt this and want sources and references. If anything at all they were xtians and therefore not aligned with said powers. Perhaps they tried to cross them on an agreement?

7. For a lot of Scientists before the 20th Century, that was all there was: atheism wasn't an option really. Also newton practiced Alchemy, a form of magic... Also before the Christians rediscovered Greek Philosophy from the Muslims Christians didn't really make any Scientific advancements. Also that's not true, only Judaism and Christianity thinks that "Satan" is real, and in Judaism, where the concept originated, it didn't mean evil... it was given to both angels and mortals as title meaning accuser and opposition.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/judaism-dir/126000-jewish-view-satan.html

Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Satan (Hebrew: הַשָּׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer",[1] is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible.[2] In Christianity the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity, "Shaitan" in Arabic, the term used by Arab Christians and Muslims).[3] In Islam, a shayṭān is any evil creature, whether human, animal or spirit. With the definite article, the Shayṭān is Iblis, the Devil."

As you can see, the idea was corrupted by Christians. I use "Satan" in the original and actual semantic meaning, as I explained in the first post of mine you quoted when our conversation started.

Also it is only "the most studied, respected, cherished book ever written" in the eyes of Christians.

 

[1robin]

Color added to help show what parts I am responding too.

1. I gave you many before hand, for example I got amazing scores on my G.E.D... with no prepreation otherwise... I got in the top 1% nationally in 4 out of 5 of the test batteries, NATIONALLY. Also I have had experiences with Succubi that were magical in nature (literally and metaphorically =p) ( a specific type of d(a)emon).
Good idea with the colors

. My little brother score in the top 1/2 of 1% on the SATs. He was moved up a year and then went on to college on the national merit scholarship, graduating with an engineering degree in 3 yrs with a 3.95. He will tell you it was not magic. I don't belive scoreing high on a test that includes the bottom end of the educational scale is magic. I scored in the top 5% on the armed forces entry exam after falling asleep hungover during the math section. I scored in the top 10% on an electronics test when I actually knew about 1 of 5 answers. Not magic either. I thought that the advantage to be a satanist was all this power you get. Can you tell me what you could do that I could not unless I was getting assistance from demons.

2. I used to be a Christian, then I left it for deism/quasi-gnosticism before settling down with Satanism about a year to year-and-a-half after leaving Christianity. So I was once "saved', but rejected that. Read my signature, it clearly states that I renounced the Trinity. According The Christian Bible "blaspheming" the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, and so I did just that and made a rejection of the three persons to cut the metaphysical link to your god a number of months later after I became a Satanist.

Since being saved is to have the holy spirit come to live within your heart, and only comes with faith in the trinity which comes from reading the bible and believing it which is derived from God's love. If this is what you claim how could you then turn around and deny the trinity, and the bible which taught you about it and deny the love which made it all possible, and embrace that which you were saved from. Are you saying you renounce the truth of these claims that were verified for you if you were saved or just denying your personal association with them. How exactly did you you blaspheme the holy spirit?

3. It's meaningless to compare him to a dad? What about "God The Father", all the Bible verses comparing him to a father, as well as all the analogies Christians give! That's the number one analogy for god! (unless you count the one about Jesus and a Shepard... but also him as a lamb too now that I think of it).

Good reply. I should have said that in this case the comaparison is inadiquate.

4. More like a betrayed mind that has been set free to the truth that your god isn't very nice... and that he isn't god.

So the God you claimed that saved you ifrom eternal damnation in hell by allowing his son to die for you is evil and non-existant God. Can you see many the inconsistency with what you are claiming from that one sentence.

5. Because there is not absolute religious truth, because all we have is best guesses, and I would rather have a less-false belief than a more false one. There are only false and less false religious and spiritual truths. The Bible says nonsense like the Universe and world is 6,000 years old, when virtually all evidence points to it being at least 13 billion years old. Simply put, The Christian Bible falls terribly short when put under scrutiny. Sure, there are a lot of historical contexts, The Old Testament Kingdoms and wars in particular, but it's like Fox News... it only gives a very rough idea of what was happening and is filled with half-truths. I'm not saying it was all made up. Surely many cities talked about and existed, but for example I doubt Sodom and Gomorrah for example were destroyed by your god, but I don't doubt for example that the Israelites fought the Philistines and other such groups in many wars. But there are still a lot of claims in The Christian Bible that are either just impossible or outright contradict all the evidence.

There is without question by necessity an absolute truth concerning religion. It is our ability to discover it that is questionable. Name me one verifiable historical claim in the bible that is false. It is so accurate it is used as a primary resource by many archaeologists.

Also you wouldn't read my sources, they are Satanic in nature and you wouldn't want to "corrupt yourself", and so I doubt you would read them anyway. Some things I take from The Satanic Bible, some from people like Diane Vera, other ideas I get from science, and still some is intuition/inspiration. I take what works as beliefs to work from for practicing my religion both in a magical sense and in a mundane sense.

I don't think your sources would corrupt me, the reason I won't read them is I am lazy. I wanted them to shine some light on why in the world you have so much faith in obscure unattested information and disregard the more widly accepted and verified info.

6. I seriously doubt this and want sources and references. If anything at all they were xtians and therefore not aligned with said powers. Perhaps they tried to cross them on an agreement?

Well your the only one that I have ever heard adopt that position the weight of evidence is overwhelmingly on the side that is consistent with the bible. I can hardly believe any one could develope an attitude that evil is really good and benign and good is malevolent and malignent. What sources do you want it was interviews with the individuals themselves. You can find hundreds of documented cases of the destruction of demonic involvment on the net anytime you wished.

7. For a lot of Scientists before the 20th Century, that was all there was: atheism wasn't an option really. Also newton practiced Alchemy, a form of magic... Also before the Christians rediscovered Greek Philosophy from the Muslims Christians didn't really make any Scientific advancements. Also that's not true, only Judaism and Christianity thinks that "Satan" is real, and in Judaism, where the concept originated, it didn't mean evil... it was given to both angels and mortals as title meaning accuser and opposition.

Since Christians have always been the minority by a large margin when compared to the whole then your point isn't valid. Alchemy is not magic it's chemistry. What is a Muslim Christian?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/judaism-dir/126000-jewish-view-satan.html

Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Satan (Hebrew: הַשָּׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer",[1] is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible.[2] In Christianity the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity, "Shaitan" in Arabic, the term used by Arab Christians and Muslims).[3] In Islam, a shayṭān is any evil creature, whether human, animal or spirit. With the definite article, the Shayṭān is Iblis, the Devil."

As you can see, the idea was corrupted by Christians. I use "Satan" in the original and actual semantic meaning, as I explained in the first post of mine you quoted when our conversation started.

Also it is only "the most studied, respected, cherished book ever written" in the eyes of Christians.

You read that definition and find nothing negative. It looks like a description of a very malevolent being that I want as little to do with as possible. I noticed that it didn't include your view that satan is God and created anything but evil. In both faiths listed it is recorded that in the end satan and anyone who fallows him are doomed. Why is this outcome risked on the basis of very unreliable data.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

It's inevitable when those who wage war on my god make inccorect statements towards his intentions, history, and nature.

I stand to correct them on both my personal theological grounds and on the actual history of said figure as treated by the actual religion that came up with the word: Judaism. As well, I also explain how it was changed from just a title to some big scary bad guy. There are many Satans, but of course the god of our flesh is a Satan as we are all Satans made in an adversarial nature just so that we can survive. Without the satan within us all humanity would of died out to it's predators and enemies long ago.

Hm, I'm curious now. As a Satan worshipper, do you feel that your God influences everyone, even if they don't follow or know of him, at all? I'm asking specifically toward your statement here that Satan gives man his resistance to the other predators of the world.

I guess I'm asking if there's a kind of universal inclusivity to everyone whether they wish the association or not; kind of akin to how the Christians go on about it sometimes. Is that the case or am I misreading you?

 

[waitasec]

I would agree with you....and have stated in similar fashion in this thread.

The difference....would be God's agenda.

and how does one acquire knowledge of god's agenda?

 

[Thief]

and how does one acquire knowledge of god's agenda?

First, make up your mind about God....

If you are certain you have no God...you have nothing to search for.

So why are you here?

With a more positive approach, you could then move toward life after death.

Obviously the agenda at hand is to learn all you can....
then back to God you go.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Begging the question.. again

If God has an agenda, it's his responsibility to make you aware of it personally

As God, he would know how to do so, infallibly.

Not doing his job well at all, is he?

 

[IslamBox]

Yes if he never dies, we never realize our sins. Its his love and scarifies who make us to think and realize.

 

[1robin]

Begging the question.. again

If God has an agenda, it's his responsibility to make you aware of it personally

As God, he would know how to do so, infallibly.

Not doing his job well at all, is he?

I have always found comments suggesting what God should do or not to be based on anything sufficient to justify the assertion. Why do you think a finite mind could have the capacity to demand anything from an infinate one or be able to judge it? It might be that a generic God is an unjust God and doesn't care whether you get the message or not.

 

[sojourner]

Begging the question.. again

If God has an agenda, it's his responsibility to make you aware of it personally

As God, he would know how to do so, infallibly.

Not doing his job well at all, is he?

Or, like any other great teacher, instead of just spoon-feeding students the information they "need," he gives us space and encouragement to discover for ourselves, thereby growing in the process.

 

[PolyHedral]

Or, like any other great teacher, instead of just spoon-feeding students the information they "need," he gives us space and encouragement to discover for ourselves, thereby growing in the process.

Teachers guide, and God is infallible.

...Yet so many people seem to be hopelessly lost. I wonder why.

 

[sojourner]

Teachers guide, and God is infallible.

...Yet so many people seem to be hopelessly lost. I wonder why.

Because they're too busy texting and not paying attention.

 

[1robin]

Teachers guide, and God is infallible.

...Yet so many people seem to be hopelessly lost. I wonder why.

Because man has an inherent desire to be free of authority and accountability. These days noone can claim they don't have access to God's truth if they want it. Even in former times God said,
New International Version (©1984)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20

People don't like the implication so we grab hold of any theory that argues against it.

 

[PolyHedral]

Because they're too busy texting and not paying attention.

God can make it more interesting. He's perfect like that.