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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

4Life

New Member
Jesus was not a human sacrifice. He sacrificed his life so we could be saved, there is a difference. Pagan thinking make some to automatically go to human sacrifice.

example: A firefighter goes into a burning building and saves a man...however the firefighter died. The man he "saved" owes a debt to his savior to live a life that will honor the man who gave his to save him. If that man does evil with the rest of his life, then the good selfless firefighter died for nothing.

Jesus was willing to die, even a death on the cross to teach us how to live right and how to understand God better, we are indebted to him. As it is written: For hardly will a man give his life for a righteous person but while we were yet sinners he died for us.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Jesus was not a human sacrifice. He sacrificed his life so we could be saved, there is a difference. Pagan thinking make some to automatically go to human sacrifice.

example: A firefighter goes into a burning building and saves a man...however the firefighter died. The man he "saved" owes a debt to his savior to live a life that will honor the man who gave his to save him. If that man does evil with the rest of his life, then the good selfless firefighter died for nothing.

Jesus was willing to die, even a death on the cross to teach us how to live right and how to understand God better, we are indebted to him. As it is written: For hardly will a man give his life for a righteous person but while we were yet sinners he died for us.

Excellent!
But may I add....
His death on the cross was a coincidence.

His true sacrifice was His ministry.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Jesus was not a human sacrifice. He sacrificed his life so we could be saved, there is a difference. Pagan thinking make some to automatically go to human sacrifice.

example: A firefighter goes into a burning building and saves a man...however the firefighter died. The man he "saved" owes a debt to his savior to live a life that will honor the man who gave his to save him. If that man does evil with the rest of his life, then the good selfless firefighter died for nothing.

Jesus was willing to die, even a death on the cross to teach us how to live right and how to understand God better, we are indebted to him. As it is written: For hardly will a man give his life for a righteous person but while we were yet sinners he died for us.
What if there was no deathly fire in the first place to start with.. only a little fire where the person still could have lived or escaped.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
you don't know what god is in order to make a metaphor about it, jeeez it's not that difficult.
We don't have to know what God is. We can speculate. It's when we try to know -- and claim to know -- that we get into trouble.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Following the laws is not a metaphoric demand.
It's not metaphoric, but it's not literal, either. As I said, the laws have always been malleable. You are trying to make them rigid, as if they never developed or changed at all.
 

4Life

New Member
What if there was no deathly fire in the first place to start with.. only a little fire where the person still could have lived or escaped.

LOL...Now you know it was just an example to try and help you understand the kind of sacrifice Jesus gave.

Thief,
I will most likely be kicked off this forum, but here goes......
It was no sacrifice for Jesus to teach the people, that was his passion and greatest joy. He would rather teach than eat or sleep. He would not renounce his teachings, even when it could save his life. God gave him the strength (power) to lay down his life and God gave him the power to take it up again....This was his reward, and all who follow in his footsteps may expect the same honor from the Father of all creation.

There is nothing in the Law that promises eternal life, you can find long life, prosperity and victory over your enimies as reward for following the Law. All writings about life after death refer to the promised Prophet (Messiah)

The promised one would draw the people back to the Law and to God's bossom. He will reunite Ephriam and Judah. All will be at peace when he comes.

The Jesus MODERN Christianity has created is a god not known by the fathers of old, he does away with the covenant and the Law. He changed the Sabbath to Sunday, the great Holy city from Jerusalem to Rome, and the people feed on pig meat and every abomination mentioned in scripture. He is set up as God or as his equal and these teachings only match what we were warned of by the followers of the real Jesus, as the antichrist.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
It's not metaphoric, but it's not literal, either. As I said, the laws have always been malleable. You are trying to make them rigid, as if they never developed or changed at all.
I am trying no such thing. You made a claim that the bible contains material meant to be metaphoric, and the Levitical laws are not part of that. If they were malleable [not that they are], that still does not make them metaphorical.

Seriously are you this immature that you just can't let it go and concede my accuracy?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I am trying no such thing. You made a claim that the bible contains material meant to be metaphoric, and the Levitical laws are not part of that. If they were malleable [not that they are], that still does not make them metaphorical.

Seriously are you this immature that you just can't let it go and concede my accuracy?
Why would I concede your accuracy when you're not ... accurate?

The laws are not metaphoric. But we, who are not Jewish, who are not living in ancient Palestine or Canaan, and for whom the Law is not necessary, more or less treat them that way. That is, we use them as types or symbols of God's covenants with us, and we revere them in that way.

I don't think there's a Jew on this forum who would contend that the Law is mandatory for us. In fact, I'm not sure there are any Jews on here who would contend that the Laws have been malleable, tweaked to suit time, place, etc.

Here's a passage from a real good article by Peter Rollins that explains the Christian position well, I think:

This was the insight of Paul regarding the Law. The more we say that we should be moral and avoid immorality the more our desire for what we disavow grows. The louder the “no” the greater the temptation to transgress the “no.” The result is guilt, a guilt that is managed through repression, a repression that results in pushing our destructive actions into the unconscious to be manifested in our clandestine actions (i.e. in symptoms).
So what is the alternative to attempting to hold ethical principles? The answer is creating a space of grace in which we are invited to bring our darkness to the surface, to speak of it in an environment in which we will not be condemned or made to feel guilty, a community that will let us speak our anxieties and darkness without asking us to change. In short, a place where we can confront our humanity rather than running from it.
The trick is to create an atmosphere of love, grace and acceptance where people are not told what to do. Where people learn that heresy which claims that, while not everything is beneficial, everything is permissible. In other words, while there are destructive things we do, they can be brought to the light without fear of condemnation. In such an environment ethical acts will emanate from the body just as heat emanates from light. One will not have to be taught that they should look after their neighbour as if it were something that we need to be told, they will simply be more inclined to do so.
The desire to have ethical rules to follow tends to lead to the action they forbid. This causes the spiral into guilt, repression and disavowed symptoms. In contrast laying such ethical propositions to one side and learning to accept both ourselves and the other in grace opens up the path to what we have set aside.
(From: peterrollins.net » Stop Teaching the Ethics of Jesus!)


For the Christian, "Keeping Laws" isn't the way to salvation. Salvation is found precisely in God fulfilling the Law in Jesus and becoming one of us.
 

bnabernard

Member
Laws are for a reason and taking the trouble to understand law is sidelined by by the lack of understanding.
One would not throw hydrogen on a fire, one would not throw oygen on a fire, yet one would throw water on a fire, the law that makes hydrogen and oxygen a means of controlling fire?

bernard (hug)
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Is breaking the laws the way to salvation ?
By not keeping the laws isn't that breaking the law ?

True we are not under the Constitution of the Mosaic law, but does that mean no law keeping ?- Galatians 6 v 2

Did Jesus want us the keep his new commandment of John 13 vs 34,35 ?

Did Jesus want us to keep his commission of Matthew 24 v 14 ?
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Why would I concede your accuracy when you're not ... accurate?

The laws are not metaphoric. But we, who are not Jewish, who are not living in ancient Palestine or Canaan, and for whom the Law is not necessary, more or less treat them that way. That is, we use them as types or symbols of God's covenants with us, and we revere them in that way.
Once again, this is a strawman, as what I've said has nothing to do with any non-Jews.

Forget it. Not worth it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Many participants would like to cling to the idea they can be saved by Someone's death so long ago.

Let's play and say it's true.

Then should we not, one and all...
prepare for a kingdom under a Jewish crown?...learn the language?....
the scheme of things and customs?
 
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