Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

I mean is so easy to figure out if Jesus states over and over that no man has seen or heard God [the Father] voice at anytime that in Genesis where it says "And God said" that this must be Jesus as God back there in Genesis. Thus that is why you have Elohim in the plural. Why is this so difficult? Because He didnt come straight out and say it in the Gospels "I am God", but leaves all kinds of clues calling Himself Lord and stuff? Its amazing how stiff-necked people can be.

If it were so easy to assume that what you assert is true then we wouldn't have such a long winded debate. Nowhere, in (Mark - the supposed earliest gospel) do we find the biblical Yeshua saying implicitly or explicitly he's "God". Matthew and Luke drew most of their material from Mark. Luke outright says he received his information from those (who "said") they were witnesses. John is a whole different animal. His information is more esoteric and a split from the others. He may have drawn a little from the others but he goes above and beyond the current info that was laid out in the previous gospels. At best, Yeshua is a servant........at worst his whole story/history is fictitious. For the sake of this debate it is assumed and should be agreed upon him being a real person. If any of the 4 gospels are to be taken as (sort of credible) then we find nowhere in them where Yeshua is "God" but everything to the contrary.....

 

[Muffled]

yes and Christians have the divine thinking, I would say Christianity lacks logic since it came out of the so called flawed thinking how can it self be divine.

I haven't read one worthy opinion of yours witch is worth a discussion, all you do is call Jews names rather then use knowledge, no wonder we never accepted what you offered, we past that already.

That is a rather wide generalization. A Christian who has the mind of Christ has divine thinking. Not every Christian has matured to that point.

That is like saying that God is illogical. Granted His reasoning is different from our because He is more intelligent but I have never been able to refute His logic.

Christianity is divine through the Paraclete (Holy Spirit). There is nothing flawed in God's thinking.

If I have done this I certainly apologize. I am under strict orders from God not to be too harsh. Perhaps you could point some of this out so I know what to avoid.

You must be speaking of Christians in general. I don't remember making you an offer and I probably won't because I am "Muffled." Maybe I could on E-mail.

 

[arimoff]

I mean is so easy to figure out if Jesus states over and over that no man has seen or heard God [the Father] voice at anytime that in Genesis where it says "And God said" that this must be Jesus as God back there in Genesis. Thus that is why you have Elohim in the plural. Why is this so difficult? Because He didnt come straight out and say it in the Gospels "I am God", but leaves all kinds of clues calling Himself Lord and stuff? Its amazing how stiff-necked people can be.

Stiff-necked? I got your point, at least we are not dumb or stupid enough to make a G-D out of an impostor.

A little bit of education can really teach you what is plural what is not in Hebrew language, but you Christians are just not smart enough rather then actually have the knowledge to logically challenge us Jews with regarding to Jesus, all you do is look for clues or hints that are not there, according to your clues I can make up any G-D I want but it wouldn't make much sense.

Is there at least one Christian out there who studied Judaism before trying to challenge us about our own believes? my experience shows me there isn't one of you out there, all you are capable of is calling us stiff-necked.

 

[Muffled]

Stiff-necked? I got your point, at least we are not dumb or stupid enough to make a G-D out of an impostor.

A little bit of education can really teach you what is plural what is not in Hebrew language, but you Christians are just not smart enough rather then actually have the knowledge to logically challenge us Jews with regarding to Jesus, all you do is look for clues or hints that are not there, according to your clues I can make up any G-D I want but it wouldn't make much sense.

Is there at least one Christian out there who studied Judaism before trying to challenge us about our own believes? my experience shows me there isn't one of you out there, all you are capable of is calling us stiff-necked.

Roflmao! Jesus has already predicted that Jews will do just that and not just any spurious candidate but the devil incarnate.

I can't say that I have ( I don't suppose a study of the Bible qualifies). On the other hand why would I wish to listen to men's thinking which is flawed when I can listen to God? I juust finished reading my church's profession of faith and found that vastly flawed. According to history after putting it down they were required to provide Biblical references and those don't jibe.

 

[arimoff]

That is a rather wide generalization. A Christian who has the mind of Christ has divine thinking. Not every Christian has matured to that point.

That is like saying that God is illogical. Granted His reasoning is different from our because He is more intelligent but I have never been able to refute His logic.

Christianity is divine through the Paraclete (Holy Spirit). There is nothing flawed in God's thinking.

If I have done this I certainly apologize. I am under strict orders from God not to be too harsh. Perhaps you could point some of this out so I know what to avoid.

You must be speaking of Christians in general. I don't remember making you an offer and I probably won't because I am "Muffled." Maybe I could on E-mail.

Holy spirit? how much of a thought does a human being need to become devine according to your views? none. Person can be the most evil but yet Christian and it would make him devine?
where is the logic in it?

G-D doesn't have logic, He doesn't have feelings, it is all part of creation, thats why He can't also be a human being or take a human form, it is not that hard to understand that an omnipotint G-D can't limit Him self to a human body or have a son daughter and a wife.

If accoridng to Christianity every man born in to this world carries the first sin how can he rectify that sin with out doing any action? by just accepting Jesus? who is Jesus to rectify my sins? I am resposible for all the wrong doings I did so it is my responsiblity to fix that.
What is the point of rectifying me if I don't feel any responsiblity for it but can just accpet Jesus and I'm free. If Jesus spared me the effort to rectify my self what will stop me from doing wrong again? Obviously I haven't learned from my mistakes because someone else will pay the price for it? ha? where is the logic?
This way nothing will ever be fixed. Untill you guys realize that each individual is responsible for His or Her actions Christianity will remain an almost good enough judaism.

 

[AK4]

If it were so easy to assume that what you assert is true then we wouldn't have such a long winded debate. Nowhere, in (Mark - the supposed earliest gospel) do we find the biblical Yeshua saying implicitly or explicitly he's "God". Matthew and Luke drew most of their material from Mark. Luke outright says he received his information from those (who "said") they were witnesses. John is a whole different animal. His information is more esoteric and a split from the others. He may have drawn a little from the others but he goes above and beyond the current info that was laid out in the previous gospels. At best, Yeshua is a servant........at worst his whole story/history is fictitious. For the sake of this debate it is assumed and should be agreed upon him being a real person. If any of the 4 gospels are to be taken as (sort of credible) then we find nowhere in them where Yeshua is "God" but everything to the contrary.....

I agree that He doesnt implictly state He is God but throughout all the Gospels it is heavily implied. Actually He portrays Himself more as Lord and as a servant of His God. In this, as He states, He did not come for His own glory but to bring glory to His Father. Even in the OT you find Him [Jesus] almost always stating or calling Himself the Lord God or the Lord your God.

Jesus came as a servant even as He states this. Think on this, He says He didnt come to be served....well even here is a clue showing that He could have came to be served, showing He had the power to do so and Jesus knew only one is to be served, but instead He says He came to serve...Serve who? Mankind? No. He came to serve HIs God.

There are clues littered throughout the Gospels for one to figure this out and many other scriptures to show why this was "concealed". Heres a good one from Proverbs


[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Pr 25:2 - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. [/FONT]

It real easy to know or to find this stuff out if one throws out all the garbage that theologians and scholars and "experts" tell us, especially how to read the scriptures.

 

[AK4]

Stiff-necked? I got your point, at least we are not dumb or stupid enough to make a G-D out of an impostor.

A little bit of education can really teach you what is plural what is not in Hebrew language, but you Christians are just not smart enough rather then actually have the knowledge to logically challenge us Jews with regarding to Jesus, all you do is look for clues or hints that are not there, according to your clues I can make up any G-D I want but it wouldn't make much sense.

Is there at least one Christian out there who studied Judaism before trying to challenge us about our own believes? my experience shows me there isn't one of you out there, all you are capable of is calling us stiff-necked.

LOL. I guess being called stiff-necked for millenia would strike a nerve eh? Id rather not be called a christian but for this i dont mind, so i will challenge you the same way Jesus did. Maybe you can step up where the pharisees couldnt.

Matthew 22:41-46 - 41 Now R1144 while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 "What R1145 do you think about the F470 Christ, whose son is He?" They *said to Him, "{The son} of David." 43 He *said to them, "Then R1146 how does David in F471 R1147 the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 44 'THE R1148 LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT R1149 AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL R1150 I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET'"? 45 "If R1151 David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?" 46 No R1152 one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another F472 question.
Maybe you got an answer for this huh? Lets try another. Why would this mob fall backwards when Jesus just says I AM here

John 18:1-12 - 1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He R1351 went forth with His disciples over the R1352 ravine F171 of the Kidron, where there was a R1353 garden, in which He entered with F172 His disciples. 2 Now Judas also, who was betraying F173 Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often R1354 met there with His disciples. 3 Judas R1355 then, having received the R1356 {Roman} cohort F174 and officers R1357 from the chief priests and the Pharisees, *came there with lanterns and torches R1358 and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing R1359 all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom R1360 do you seek?" 5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I R1361 am {He.}" And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, "I R1362 AM" they drew back and fell to the ground.

I will wait for an answer. OOh another one. The same one i just posted a few posts back. If Jesus says over and over no man has seen God at anytime or heard His voice, who pray tell is doing all the talking as God in the OT to all those prophets huh? Who is the one doing the saying in the first chapter of Genesis? Who is the one saying all this...


" Hear O Israel the Yehwah our Elohim is ONE Yehwah" (Deut. 6:14)

"The Yahweh your Elohim, He is Elohim, the faithful El which keeps covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments" (Deut. 7:9).

"For the Yehwah your Elohim is Elohim of Elohim and Adon Adon of Adon Adon a great El?"(Deut. 10:17)

"I am the Yahweh, and there is none else, there is NO ELOHIM beside Me" (Isa. 45:5 & 6).

What is the first thing God created? Show me where in the OT it shows God getting knowledge. Tell me how one of the fruits of God is longsuffering. Tell me why Gen 1 says in the Hebrew "In firstfruits, God created the heavens and the earth".

You want more? Can you even answer one of these questions? I can answer them all. Now see if your judaism has an answer. I wont hold my breath.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I agree that He doesnt implictly state He is God but throughout all the Gospels it is heavily implied.

This doesn't make sense. You say "he" doesn't imply it but when you read the gospels...it is heavily implied....?

It is implied nowhere but inferred by the reader.

Actually He portrays Himself more as Lord and as a servant of His God. In this, as He states, He did not come for His own glory but to bring glory to His Father. Even in the OT you find Him [Jesus] almost always stating or calling Himself the Lord God or the Lord your God.

This is the case if you assume then assert that "God" in the OT is the biblical Yeshua. This is incorrect. In the NT the biblical Yeshua says he existed in heaven with his god before his god created the earth. He says he (came not by his will) but the will of his god that "sent" him. So basically we find that the biblical Yeshua existed in heaven completely separate from his god and he had his own (separate) will....and it was his god who "sent" him to earth. Any attempt to make the man into "God" is pure speculation.

Jesus came as a servant even as He states this. Think on this, He says He didnt come to be served....well even here is a clue showing that He could have came to be served, showing He had the power to do so and Jesus knew only one is to be served, but instead He says He came to serve...Serve who? Mankind? No. He came to serve HIs God.

Which in itself means he wasn't "God". I mean, if he has a god who is the (all in all in all) then he himself is not that which he serves.

It real easy to know or to find this stuff out if one throws out all the garbage that theologians and scholars and "experts" tell us, especially how to read the scriptures.

You got the wrong guy. I don't completely rely on theologians. I use a myriad qualified sources. Most are scholars, geologist, and anthropologist. Very few theologians I'll use

 

[AK4]

Stiff-necked? I got your point, at least we are not dumb or stupid enough to make a G-D out of an impostor.

WHAT??!! Do you think you are talking to an amatuer here? Have you actually read your tanak? What is the main thing God accused and punished the jews and israelites for? ADULTERY!! Over and over again you guys made imposter gods, worshipped imposter gods, and even sacrificed your own in fire to other gods. What does God say about you guys prostituting of yourselves to other gods and how FREELY YOU OPEN YOUR LEGS TO OTHER GODS AND how you guys were WORSE THAN PROSTITUTES because at least prostitutes ASKED TO BE PAID FOR THEIR PROSTITUTION and you guys FREELY WHORE YOURSELVES OUT!!

Do i need to say more? Do you want to rephrase what you said now about others making imposter gods?

Oh and as a bonus reference, what does God say about yalls faith and righteousness? ITS LIKE A MENSTRUAL CLOTH!!!

Oh but dont feel bad. The same thing applies to those still stuck in the doctrines of christianity, you guys just showed em how to do it and they mimicked it.

ps. Dont get me started on what God had to say about your Jerusalem and how yall are worst than your sisters Sodom and Samaria [or was it Assyria] no matter, He calls yall faith, worship and righteousness worst than anyone elses on the planet.

 

[AK4]

Stiff-necked? I got your point, at least we are not dumb or stupid enough to make a G-D out of an impostor.

.

Oh let me add one more thing about imposters. Proverbs tells us to kiss the Son yet Jews over there in israel are over there KISSING A TWO THOUSAND YEAR OLD DUSTY, DIRTY WALL!!! Talk about an imposter.

Edit---Oh let me add that some even bow down to it. Unbelievable.

 

[look3467]

What is God's objective in all this?
1. Create a free will individual as like unto Himself.= creation
2.Subject that individual into an environment for testing.= fall
3. Judge the fall = judgment
4. Punishment equating the judgment= death.

That is the picture and the steps each one of us takes as individuals entities, as told in the bible.

There is a difference between God (Upper case G) and gods (Lowe case g).

The upper case G, God, is the creator with all power and might, "the Almighty God" and one who is responsible for our creation, our placement into this world.

The lower case g, us, are powerless to effect any change in our dead state status.

Therefore, God, upper case G, can save mankind only if, with His own righteousness, become like as a man, born of a women, go through the same four steps above and resolve for mankind onces and for all, the question of the fall.

If your Jewish, you were used mightily as an instrument in the hands of God in rectifying the state of the fallen condition of mankind.

The nation of Israel is as like the virgin Mary, a virgin, free from sin to the effect of honoring the desires of the God of Abraham, in condemning anyone who would bring about a new gospel.

The Gentile nations were without a God in knowledge and therefore outside he courts, as in like the Tabernacle.
They were without hope as the Jewish God was only made known to the descendent's of Abraham.

But you see, every soul that breaketh the womb has to go trough those four steps regardless of what race of people we are born in, making all equal as lost in the eyes of God.

God then had to do one of two things: 1st, He could have come to the Jews only and saved them, or 2nd. come to the Jews, have them reject Jesus and then reach out to the rest of the world an save both Jew and Gentile alike with one sacrifice.

The sacrifice offering was not an animal sacrifice, but one offered by God in behalf of all mankind, and that was God's Son Jesus.

Jesus, therefore, had to be Devine in human nature if He as God were to reconcile the fall and grant life to all humanity, in stead of death....as it was.

Whether Jew or Christian, if neither can see the picture of Gods works, will not be able to come to an understanding of His works, but rather in how mankind perceives it to be.

Yes, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" giving the understanding that God and Jesus are one in power, and might to perform what only God alone can perform, and that is the salvation of all His creation.

I we take Jesus out of the equation, than rightly so, our righteousness is all what we have, and to what end?
Think ye that your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes: Mat 5:20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The ones doing the will of God were the scribes and Pharisees, therefore their righteousness was reckoned as Gods rightness.

May of you will probably not understand that.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Muffled]

Holy spirit? how much of a thought does a human being need to become devine according to your views? none. Person can be the most evil but yet Christian and it would make him devine?
where is the logic in it?

G-D doesn't have logic, He doesn't have feelings, it is all part of creation, thats why He can't also be a human being or take a human form, it is not that hard to understand that an omnipotint G-D can't limit Him self to a human body or have a son daughter and a wife.

If accoridng to Christianity every man born in to this world carries the first sin how can he rectify that sin with out doing any action? by just accepting Jesus? who is Jesus to rectify my sins? I am resposible for all the wrong doings I did so it is my responsiblity to fix that.
What is the point of rectifying me if I don't feel any responsiblity for it but can just accpet Jesus and I'm free. If Jesus spared me the effort to rectify my self what will stop me from doing wrong again? Obviously I haven't learned from my mistakes because someone else will pay the price for it? ha? where is the logic?
This way nothing will ever be fixed. Untill you guys realize that each individual is responsible for His or Her actions Christianity will remain an almost good enough judaism.

The physical brain is not capable of being divine. It has to be ruled by the mind of the spirit. To be divine the spirit of God must rule the mind 100%. This is achieveable on a short term basis but it isn't necessary for all of life. I don't need the mind of Christ to rule over my eating breakfast.

You can't make a purse out of a sows ear. The spirit of God does not sin. When Christians sin it is because they have not alowed God to rule over them.

Anyone can be called Christian. However from God's perspective, even if a person sins at least their heart is in the right place. For a Jew it works the same way. A person tries to do the right thing so God sees his heart as being in the right place. So the bottom line is not that Christians are sinless but that they sin less.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Ps 78:40 How oft did they rebel against him in the wilderness, And grieve him in the desert!

God does not limit Himself by being in a body. He is still omnipresent and omnipotent. I will grant that the body has its limits but even those God can overcome if he wishes.

First of all, sins can't be rectified. A person can be rectified. A person is rectified by the grace of God. I wouldn't say that a person could not rectify his actions by trying but only that his sinful nature will cause him to frequently fail. Jesus is God who is capable of controlling every move we make. People rarely are able to fix things and God often doesn't.

God rectifies because he is seeking a redemption. Guilt achieves nothing in the way of redemption. "I'm free" is a relative concept. I am free from sin but I am in bondage to God. Yes, there is a need to learn how to overcome sin and God makes allowances for that. However God has graciously provided a respite from that. Judaism will never be good enough. While you are still struggling with your sin, mine is gone.

 

[look3467]

Has not the Potter power over the clay?
The first is marred, the second is perfect?
Both of which are fired in the same furnace?

Blessings, AJ

 

[AK4]

And yet another "clue" or "piece of the puzzle" that Jesus can be called God. Notice carefully what the scribes reasoned in their hearts

Mark 2:1-12 - [Verse 7 in Original Greek] 1 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. 2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. 3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. 12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
Now only God can forgive sins right? Yet Jesus also can do the same right? Is this still too hard to see?

[ps. Please dont think i am arguing from a trinitarian point of view, cus i am not]

 

[arimoff]

The physical brain is not capable of being divine. It has to be ruled by the mind of the spirit. To be divine the spirit of God must rule the mind 100%. This is achieveable on a short term basis but it isn't necessary for all of life. I don't need the mind of Christ to rule over my eating breakfast.

You can't make a purse out of a sows ear. The spirit of God does not sin. When Christians sin it is because they have not alowed God to rule over them.

Anyone can be called Christian. However from God's perspective, even if a person sins at least their heart is in the right place. For a Jew it works the same way. A person tries to do the right thing so God sees his heart as being in the right place. So the bottom line is not that Christians are sinless but that they sin less.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Ps 78:40 How oft did they rebel against him in the wilderness, And grieve him in the desert!

God does not limit Himself by being in a body. He is still omnipresent and omnipotent. I will grant that the body has its limits but even those God can overcome if he wishes.

First of all, sins can't be rectified. A person can be rectified. A person is rectified by the grace of God. I wouldn't say that a person could not rectify his actions by trying but only that his sinful nature will cause him to frequently fail. Jesus is God who is capable of controlling every move we make. People rarely are able to fix things and God often doesn't.

God rectifies because he is seeking a redemption. Guilt achieves nothing in the way of redemption. "I'm free" is a relative concept. I am free from sin but I am in bondage to God. Yes, there is a need to learn how to overcome sin and God makes allowances for that. However God has graciously provided a respite from that. Judaism will never be good enough. While you are still struggling with your sin, mine is gone.

My friend you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say, Ill give you an example, Torah says eye for and eye, it doesn't mean you have to take an eye for an eye, Talmud explains that eye for an eye means that the damager has to pay for your physical and emotional damages. Everything in this world has to be equal, every sin and a good deed tips the scales of judgment accordingly. So logic would tell me that my sin towards another human being cannot be rectified by salvation or by anybody else other then me, to tip the sales accordingly I would have to do good (ask for forgiveness, pay for damage...etc) towards that person who I caused damage to.

I steel someones car or wrongfully spoke of my co-worker witch led him to get fired, only my own action can fix it, Jesus cant fix that for me.

The problem with Jesus being the salvation is that it doesn't force people to become human beings to act better towards each other, I can stay the same but just believe in Jesus but what about that person who suffered from my actions?

There is no need for Jesus to be G-D, only good deeds can bring the so called salvation, the first sin involved an action so only action can fix it. Our sages teach us that prior to the first sin this world was perfect the scales were equal since there is no good and evil but after the sin the scales tipped and this world broke in to many pieces now it is our job to to put it all back together by doing good deeds. If you think about it it makes a lot of sense, if we all act better towards each other this world will already become a better society and there is no need for someone to come and save us.

 

[look3467]

arimoff

You make a good point of which restitution is a way of redemption for a wrong done.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that view as matter of fact, if it was required by law, there would be less criminals.

We are looking at two distinct different things here that were a result of the creation f mankind.
One, as you pointed out correctly, as a means of restitution for redemption, and two, the condition, the state of the individual soul, and collectively, which mankind can do absolutely nothing about, save God Himself.

The created being, Adam (Meaning mankind, both male and female) had no choice in being made in the likeness of the creator. (Meaning, having intelligence)

Th ability to know good and evil and reason via intelligence make us like God, yet separate from God as gods. (Lower case g)

This verse is sacred to you "Deu 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:"



There can be none other, or many other gods for if there were, they should/would die, for there can be but only ne God.

Now, for that cause, God needs redemption for placing us under those conditions. (Meaning the dieing part or better understood, "that which was lost".

Now, unless God Himself acts to correct that condition, mankind is without hope!

So, God offers His son, as one like us, born of a women, yet one with the full power of God, to be offered by the very ones God appointed to make animal offerings in behalf of the people, to offer Jesus up as restitution.

The potter (Father God) make a vessel, marred by the fact that the vessel becomes an independent god, again makes of the same lump another vessel, this time a perfect one(as God) upper case G, and redeems the first.

Now apart from that, there is absolutely no hope for mankind in its own state, dead state, without the reviving been done by God Alone!

Blessings AJ

 

[Composer]

. . . . So, God offers His son, as one like us, born of a women, yet one with the full power of God, to be offered by the very ones God appointed to make animal offerings in behalf of the people, to offer Jesus up as restitution.

Can't legitimately happen -

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html) ​

 

[Muffled]

My friend you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say, Ill give you an example, Torah says eye for and eye, it doesn't mean you have to take an eye for an eye, Talmud explains that eye for an eye means that the damager has to pay for your physical and emotional damages. Everything in this world has to be equal, every sin and a good deed tips the scales of judgment accordingly. So logic would tell me that my sin towards another human being cannot be rectified by salvation or by anybody else other then me, to tip the sales accordingly I would have to do good (ask for forgiveness, pay for damage...etc) towards that person who I caused damage to.

I steel someones car or wrongfully spoke of my co-worker witch led him to get fired, only my own action can fix it, Jesus cant fix that for me.

The problem with Jesus being the salvation is that it doesn't force people to become human beings to act better towards each other, I can stay the same but just believe in Jesus but what about that person who suffered from my actions?

There is no need for Jesus to be G-D, only good deeds can bring the so called salvation, the first sin involved an action so only action can fix it. Our sages teach us that prior to the first sin this world was perfect the scales were equal since there is no good and evil but after the sin the scales tipped and this world broke in to many pieces now it is our job to to put it all back together by doing good deeds. If you think about it it makes a lot of sense, if we all act better towards each other this world will already become a better society and there is no need for someone to come and save us.

That is exactly the point. Without Jesus there will be very little in the way of good deeds. Another man could not keep me from doing evil. Try keeping someone bent on doing evil from doing it sometime and see how far it gets you. Even if a person intends to do good he will oft go astray and even though willing to hear the advice of others, it is often the blind leading the blind. Only God can lead a person on the right path and that is not a distinctly Christian viewpoint. However it is not as the human being that Jesus saves but as the Paraclete. All that the sojourn of God in Jesus does for salvation is prepare the way for the Paraclete.

No-one is ever the same after believing in Jesus. If a person stays the same he didn't really believe in Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Can't legitimately happen -

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV​

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."​

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)​

The question here is whether God forgives sin, not whether someone suffers because of sin. The Tenach is replete with references to sacrifices offered so that sins would be forgiven. The problem is that people still don't believe that God will forgive them even though He says so. The only way a person could ever be sure that God would forgive sin would be for God to demonstrate by His own personal sacrifice his willingness to forgive sin.

I once asked a Jew on the day of attonement if he was going to have his sins forgiven. He told me that he didn't think God would forgive him.

I heard someone at church talking about a tenant who as a Muslim was using a lot of water for ablutions so that his sin would be forgiven. When asked if he thought he would be forginen, he answered in the negative.

I know my sins are forgiven because God suffered as a man, as no man has ever suffered before, on a cross to prove beyond a doubt that he would do so.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I once asked a Jew on the day of attonement if he was going to have his sins forgiven. He told me that he didn't think God would forgive him.

I heard someone at church talking about a tenant who as a Muslim was using a lot of water for ablutions so that his sin would be forgiven. When asked if he thought he would be forginen, he answered in the negative.

I know my sins are forgiven because God suffered as a man, as no man has ever suffered before, on a cross to prove beyond a doubt that he would do so.

Right and there lies your problem. You and people like you have reduced your god to a man. From what is said about your god it seems illogical he would subject himself to his creation. In the OT "God" forgave so it would not be fitting for him to become that which he created in order to forgive.