Did Jesus say he was God???

[look3467]

Can't legitimately happen -

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV​

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."​

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)​

What you are proposing that each one f us is responsible for our own sins, which is correct.

God is responsible fo the soul of mankind, thus He made the move to save it.

Only God alone, which means, Jesus alone could bear the penality of te sins of the world.

Hence: Jesus was abandoned by His followers at His arrest.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Composer]

Indeed a God doesn't need a sacrifice in order to forgive.

A God could apparently dance the bolero standing on its head and say that is the condition - means for forgiveness. OR it could simply ' I forgive '.

In fact any sacrifice isn't straight forward forgiveness. It is conditional forgiveness requiring first a substitute be made. Thus nullifying supposed ' Grace ' also.

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST​

There is no operation of Divine wisdom that has been so completely misapprehended and misrepresented as the shedding of the blood of Christ.

Popular preaching brings it down to a level with the sacrifices of idolatrous superstition, by which wrathful deities are supposed to be placated by the blood of a substitutionary victim. Christ is represented as having paid our debts—as having died instead of us—as having stood in our room like a substitute in military service, or like a man rushing to the scaffold where a criminal is about to be executed, and offering to die instead of him (a favourite illustration in the evangelical pulpit).

Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us—death—he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, “if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins” (1- Corinthians 15:17).
Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not “forgiven,” for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God—the forgiveness of our sins “through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25 ). (Blood of Christ by R. Roberts)

 

[Composer]

What you are proposing that each one f us is responsible for our own sins, which is correct.

If you didn't have a story book to tell you that you die because you are supposed to have sinned then how would you know?

The story book also confirms that ALL men were subject to death BEFORE they are claimed to have sinned and brought death upon themselves.

How do we know?

Because man was created such that he needed to partake of the Tree of Life to become Immortal.

Hence he was mortal and subject to death BEFORE it is claimed he sinned and brought death upon himself and all others.

God is responsible fo the soul of mankind, thus He made the move to save it.

Man was NEVER given a separate soul says the story book.

I would like to examine what evidence you think you have that says he was ' given a separate soul? '

Only God alone, which means, Jesus alone could bear the penality of te sins of the world.

God isn't a man (Num. 23:19) but the story book Jesus was. Hence they are NOT co-equal.
1 Kings 8:27 KJV states the ' heaven of heavens can't contain God literally ' but most christians believe Mary's tiny womb can? LOL!

Hence: Jesus was abandoned by His followers at His arrest. Blessings, AJ

The story book Jesus was a fraud and deserves abandoning.

 

[AK4]

quote Composer

The story book Jesus was a fraud and deserves abandoning.

And you base this off of?

 

[look3467]

If you didn't have a story book to tell you that you die because you are supposed to have sinned then how would you know?>>>Composer

That's a no brain-er!

The story book also confirms that ALL men were subject to death BEFORE they are claimed to have sinned and brought death upon themselves.

Looks like your referencing the same story book? Otherwise, what other source do you have?

And yes, before the story book came into being, all humans are subject to death.

Now, in just that statement, there is no hope, as if that's all there was.

But thanks to the story book, we find hope!

Are.............you...........trusting in that hope?

I would like to examine what evidence you think you have that says he was ' given a separate soul? '

Well, the story book telss us just that! Here....Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

If a god, but not God, then that makes us individual entities separate from God as gods.

Therefore, gods can not co-exist with God, gods must die.

But, once gods are reborn of God, there remains no individuality as gods, but are one with God, as sons of God.

God isn't a man (Num. 23:19) but the story book Jesus was. Hence they are NOT co-equal.
1 Kings 8:27 KJV states the ' heaven of heavens can't contain God literally ' but most christians believe Mary's tiny womb can? LOL!

OK, if you are going to refer to the story book then you must try to understand why the story book states what it does.

If we look at Romans 8:20, look it up, I'll give you a minute...........
It states that God subjected us to vanity.

That means we had no say so in the matter. So, if we had no say so in the matter, suppose we have power to change that? Of course not, since we did not originate ourselves, but God did.

Now the second part of that verse states, that by reason of the same, meaning God, has also subjected us to hope.

What that means is that because we can not save ourselves from eternal non existence, God Himself has to save us.

That is the good news!

Now here is the part you are having difficulty with in believing, and that is that since God alone can save us, then He must do it as a man.

Here is a verse that states that: Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

No more animal sacrifice, for God as did with Abraham, provided the object of sacrifice in our stead, and that body formed as like we, has God prepared for a sacrifice, once and for all time for all mankind, bar none.

If you are to believe the story book, than that is the statement presented to us as hope.

The story book Jesus was a fraud and deserves abandoning.

If you do, then it is because God gave you that right!

Blessings, AJ



That is the hope, the good news.

 

[Composer]

Quote:
If you didn't have a story book to tell you that you die because you are supposed to have sinned then how would you know?>>>Composer

That's a no brain-er!

On the contrary it is a sensible question to which obviously you have no legitimate answer either.

Looks like your referencing the same story book? Otherwise, what other source do you have?

I source the story book because that is supposed to be your alleged benchmark.

And yes, before the story book came into being, all humans are subject to death.

I am glad you also consider it a story book.

Now, in just that statement, there is no hope, as if that's all there was.

But thanks to the story book, we find hope!

#1: No we don't, fundamentally and the bottom-line is that we find the misleading testimony of a fraud and liar who claimed to have ' selflessly literally died for us (Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5;10 KJV story book) ' but we know it was a fraud because we continue to die even today.

Are.............you...........trusting in that hope?

Nope!

Well, the story book telss us just that! Here....Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

IF there eyes are yet to be opened then it was a foolish God that demanded from them not to disobey because they wouldn't know what disobedience or death was!

If a god, but not God, then that makes us individual entities separate from God as gods.

Therefore, gods can not co-exist with God, gods must die.

But, once gods are reborn of God, there remains no individuality as gods, but are one with God, as sons of God.

Empty speculation on your part still!

OK, if you are going to refer to the story book then you must try to understand why the story book states what it does.

If we look at Romans 8:20, look it up, I'll give you a minute...........
It states that God subjected us to vanity.

That means we had no say so in the matter. So, if we had no say so in the matter, suppose we have power to change that? Of course not, since we did not originate ourselves, but God did.

Now the second part of that verse states, that by reason of the same, meaning God, has also subjected us to hope.

What that means is that because we can not save ourselves from eternal non existence, God Himself has to save us.

That is the good news!

Nope! See #1: above.

Now here is the part you are having difficulty with in believing, and that is that since God alone can save us, then He must do it as a man.

Here is a verse that states that: Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

No more animal sacrifice, for God as did with Abraham, provided the object of sacrifice in our stead, and that body formed as like we, has God prepared for a sacrifice, once and for all time for all mankind, bar none.

If you are to believe the story book, than that is the statement presented to us as hope.

A story book text used to attempt to legitimise itself is a non sequitur.

If you do, then it is because God gave you that right!

Blessings, AJ

According to the story book we have only been given ' conditional love ' and if we don't do as commanded (i.e. love this God) then our ' Freedom of choice ' to reject this God is NOT respected and we are threatened with punishment.

That is the hope, the good news.

I don't want it thanks!

I want true unconditional love from a God that truly gives it, not this monster, bully and fraud!

Thanks for your time!

 

[Composer]

And you base this off of?

Bottom-line is that we find the misleading testimony of a fraud and liar who claimed to have ' selflessly literally died for us (Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5:10 KJV story book) ' but we know it was a fraud because we continue to die even today.

 

[look3467]

Funny how your handle is "Composer".

You could very well compose any thing you want right? As in freedom of choice?

Well, I reference the bible to "A story book" because that is what you are calling it, rather than directly: The bible.

Since you are arguing the validity of the contents of the story book (Bible), without any faith, it is easy to believe the bible as being a myth.

#1: No we don't, fundamentally and the bottom-line is that we find the misleading testimony of a fraud and liar who claimed to have ' selflessly literally died for us (Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5;10 KJV story book) ' but we know it was a fraud because we continue to die even today.

You may believe whatever you want about Jesus as is your God given right.

Within that right lies the secret that is hidden from you that you can not see for lack of faith in God.

In your unbelief God in Jesus forgives you, giving you the freedom to still reject Him (Jesus).

Had you but understood the works of God, you would have seen to believe His works over your own thoughts as what God really has done for you.

Ref: Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Within those two verses is your/mine hope, since God has concluded all of us in unbelief as in the second verse above.

But the first verse above is what saves us all, and that is the faith of God, not ours.

For those who continue in unbelief, there is no entrance into heaven, meaning, there is no heavenly benefits here on earth for them, other than what this world has to offer.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Simple faith in God is all that is needed!

No intellectual, scientific analysis, burden of proof, just simple faith!

IF there eyes are yet to be opened then it was a foolish God that demanded from them not to disobey because they wouldn't know what disobedience or death was!

Can you........ from that verse determine that death exits?

Then that is the point!

Now, having seen the point, there remains a means by which death can be annulled.

Remember two things about our existence: 1. Spiritual realm and 2. physical realm.

Both died, 1. spiritual because of separation from God and 2. because it is appointed once for us to die physically.

What has been annulled is the first, the number 1, spiritual death.

The second remains 2. Physical death.

As for number 1 which is spiritual:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

You see, the works of God in Jesus having pass through the overflowing scourge and trodden down by it, was yours and mine fate, completely eliminated!

What more could we ask for, having been given life as an individual, experience the difference between good and evil, having the will as gods, and yet still find that despite our individuality, God still loves us?

It would seem to me that that would humble me, which it does, and not be so arrogant to think that I am my own without any help from God?

Unbelief in God is arrogance, pride in self, rebellious in nature and subject to the consequences of our own making.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Without God laws, suppose one could find comfort in the above?

What you see in those verses is the inherent potential of mankind without God.

And we wonder why we should die?

Fortunately, God sees us different, which is our saving grace.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Bottom-line is that we find the misleading testimony of a fraud and liar who claimed to have ' selflessly literally died for us (Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5:10 KJV story book) ' but we know it was a fraud because we continue to die even today.

You know what, you are absolutely correct!

Let you in on a little secret: we are all death and dying.

Does that make any sense to you?

Dead (Spiritually)because our eyes were opened, and dying, because we will all die one day physically.

Now, here is what is good about the work God did in Jesus, that is, while we are yet alive physically, we can be revived spiritually, to where only the physical dies, and the spirit lives on.

Look.....there is no difference between you and I because we are both destined to die physically one day, but what does make a difference between us, is that I am already revived spiritually because of my faith in Jesus as God, the Savior of my soul.

Can you claim the same thing?

Blessings, AJ

 

[AK4]

Bottom-line is that we find the misleading testimony of a fraud and liar who claimed to have ' selflessly literally died for us (Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5:10 KJV story book) ' but we know it was a fraud because we continue to die even today.

Now where in scripture [notice i said scripture not spurious bible translations] does it say that after He died and was risen that no one else would die? :biglaugh:You have made a baseless and foolish claim.

 

[Composer]

. . . .Look.....there is no difference between you and I because we are both destined to die physically one day, but what does make a difference between us, is that I am already revived spiritually because of my faith in Jesus as God, the Savior of my soul.

i) Who told you that you had a separate soul?
ii) Your alleged evidence would therefore be?

Can you claim the same thing?

Blessings, AJ

I can't legitimately claim that no, nor do I wish to, but so far neither can you legitimately!

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Composer]

Now where in scripture [notice i said scripture not spurious bible translations] does it say that after He died and was risen that no one else would die? . . . .

' died for us ' - Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5:10 KJV story book

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Now where in scripture [notice i said scripture not spurious bible translations] does it say that after He died and was risen that no one else would die?

All who sin die. If one could stop sinning one would not die. That is why we need Jesus to resurrect the dead. But what about the righteous ones that are alive on earth at the time Jesus comes in glory to take action against the wicked will they die?

Don't the sheep-like ones alive and living on earth at the time of Matthew 25:31,32;46 remain alive and keep on living right into Jesus peaceful 1000-year rule over earth with the prospect of everlasting life just as Adam originally had in front of him?

 

[Composer]

All who sin die. If one could stop sinning one would not die.

False! according to the story book man was created dependent on the Tree of Life to make him Immortal. Therefore he was mortal even before the story book claims that sin brought death/mortality.

 

[look3467]

i) Who told you that you had a separate soul?
ii) Your alleged evidence would therefore be?


I can't legitimately claim that no, nor do I wish to, but so far neither can you legitimately!

Thanks for your comments.

The very first book of Genesis states the following: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If you add the vessel and the spirit, you will get a marriage.

A child is born from two opposites, male and female, a marriage between the two creates a living soul.

In the verse above, the spirit of God is the Adam (representative of the male) and the vessel, the earthen vessel is representative of Eve.

A marriage between heaven and earth, Adam and Eve, produced a living soul, called Adam. (Mankind)

If you can come up with mankind's origin other than what is in the story book (Bible), go for it.

On the second half of your quote, I can claim my soul's spirit as reborn!

I will explain why.

Based on the story book (Bible) account of the creation of mankind, I was introduced into this world without my consent, subjected to this worlds vanity.

Not only that, but the story book (Bible) tells me that because of knowledge of good and evil, I am a dead man, both spiritually and destined to die physically.

OK, I ask me self, what hope have I then for an after life, if I am twice dead? Non-existence? As if I had never even existed?

The story book (Bible) also tells me there is hope! That is if I should desire to look in to it.

And that I did, and found that by a rebirth spiritually, I am no longer dead spiritually but alive for a life after this one that has no end.

I still die physically, but not spiritually.

Now that is something I can rest my soul on, and cease to try to find a way around this old world of vanity for some sort of salvation.

And that my friend is what you are looking at for your salvation, the world and all it has to offer you,and you will not find rest for your soul until you do.

The bible is a living story book, with many of the stories being true, and some are not because they are visions given as a way of giving an explanation.

If I wanted to communicate with an ant colony, I would have to become an ant.

If I wanted to explain 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, and spewed out the third day, could I use the story as like Jonaha's?

You see, no faith in the story book's (Bible) message, results in no hope.

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

False! according to the story book man was created dependent on the Tree of Life to make him Immortal. Therefore he was mortal even before the story book claims that sin brought death/mortality.

'Never' was the word immortal offered to Adam. There is a difference between everlasting life and being immortal which is death proof.

Everlasting or eternal life as a perfectly healthy human of mind and body is dependent on obedience to God and obeying the laws of nature, so to speak.
We can not defy gravity or ignore bathroom activities or stop eating, etc.

Even the angels were created mortal. They can be destroyed for disobedience. See Hebrews 2:14 B because Satan will be destroyed.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The very first book of Genesis states the following: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
I still die physically, but not spiritually.

Yes, man' became' a living soul. Man did not possess a soul, or come to have a soul, but man became a living soul or person. Isn't that why Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul that sins dies? Or, soul be destroyed as Acts 3:23 says?

A living person can be spiritually dead. But according to Ecc 9:5 the dead know nothing, or in other words, sleep the deep sleep of death as Jesus believed at John 11:11-14 and as the Psalmist also believed.
-Ps 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4.

Adam lost the spirit of life when he sinned. Like a fan Adam unplugged himself from his source of life and s-l-o-w-l-y wound down until he had no spirit of life left. From dust to dust. Wasn't it the power of God's spirit that was used in all creation- Gen 1:2? We still associate spirit with power or strength in life when we think of a high-spirited horse, or how at a pep rally one gets charged up with what is called school spirit.

As Daniel (12:2,13) looked forward to the awakening of the sleeping dead from the dust of the ground when God's kingdom or royal government in the hands of his crowned king Jesus Christ, who reigns for a 1000 years, ushers upon earth 'Peace' among men of goodwill starting with those of Matthew 25:31,32, and followed by the resurrected ones such as Daniel.

 

[Composer]

The very first book of Genesis states the following: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It doesn't say man was ' given ' a soul.

You are fabricating that part!

Strong's Concordance ' soul '​

BDB/Thayers # 5315

05315 nephesh neh'-fesh}
from 05314; TWOT - 1395a; n f
AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9,
body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3,
themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 45; 751
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being,
desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the
inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious​

It simply means man became a living being/person! -

And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. (Gen. 2:7) YLT story book

Can you point out where any say man was ' given ' a soul?

Thanks

If you can come up with mankind's origin other than what is in the story book (Bible), go for it.

I personally believe in an Intelligent Designer (God for want of a better word) however there is no legitimate reason apart from my existence and the things around me that I can prove that. Nor is there any legitimate evidence to prove the story book is anything more than that.

On the second half of your quote, I can claim my soul's spirit as reborn!

I will explain why.

Based on the story book (Bible) account of the creation of mankind, I was introduced into this world without my consent, subjected to this worlds vanity.

Not only that, but the story book (Bible) tells me that because of knowledge of good and evil, I am a dead man, both spiritually and destined to die physically.

OK, I ask me self, what hope have I then for an after life, if I am twice dead? Non-existence? As if I had never even existed?

The story book (Bible) also tells me there is hope! That is if I should desire to look in to it.

And that I did, and found that by a rebirth spiritually, I am no longer dead spiritually but alive for a life after this one that has no end.

I still die physically, but not spiritually.

Now that is something I can rest my soul on, and cease to try to find a way around this old world of vanity for some sort of salvation.

And that my friend is what you are looking at for your salvation, the world and all it has to offer you,and you will not find rest for your soul until you do.

The bible is a living story book, with many of the stories being true, and some are not because they are visions given as a way of giving an explanation.

If I wanted to communicate with an ant colony, I would have to become an ant.

If I wanted to explain 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, and spewed out the third day, could I use the story as like Jonaha's?

You see, no faith in the story book's (Bible) message, results in no hope.

Blessings, AJ

You can have the same Faith in Leprechauns but until you legitimately demonstrate that Leprechauns literally exist then likewise as now you have at best nothing credible!

Thanks for your opinions, some legitimate evidence would be preferable?

 

[Composer]

'Never' was the word immortal offered to Adam.

Tree of Life = Life = No death!

There is a difference between everlasting life and being immortal which is death proof.

There is no distinction other than your say so.

Everlasting or eternal life as a perfectly healthy human of mind and body is dependent on obedience to God and obeying the laws of nature, so to speak.

Propaganda!

We can not defy gravity or ignore bathroom activities or stop eating, etc.

We are finite creatures I agree.

Even the angels were created mortal. They can be destroyed for disobedience. See Hebrews 2:14 B because Satan will be destroyed.

The ' angels ' are a story book concept.

Satan is simply a Hebrew Transferred word and simply means ANY Adversary/Opposer/Enemy Good or Bad, Male or Female or Neuter Gender and is NEVER a proper name for any thing.

The term “Satan” is not a proper name, like Donald, for instance. (P. 93 -

How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

​

 

[look3467]

Thanks for your opinions, some legitimate evidence would be preferable? >>>Composer

You and I can neither prove our points for neither one of us have any proof other than where we place our faith in.

The one sure thing for me is that all my life my faith in God has been a blessing, as proof of His favor.

I can only testify to that as proof, for I am truly blessed, if you only knew.

Now, did Jesus say He was God? Not in those exact words, but as God, there could be no other way for the salvation of mankind.

The bible gives us the whole story, as God wants us to know of it, but only in faith in His word, can life be forth coming.

Blessings AJ