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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Nothing wrong with your view as stated.
I would like to present a different view as to Jesus being the beginning of the creation of God.
Adam was God's first creation evidenced by the 7-day creation story.
Jesus is the second type of Adam evidenced by the story of day Jesus was crucified on the cross.
One creation was physical as per the 7-day creation story, the second was of the 7 day creation story recreating the original 7-day creation story into a one day spiritual recreation story.
What you read in the book of Revelation is about that one day, the day Jesus conquered death and evil as the hope given us in Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, (Physical) not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (Spiritual)
Adam first being physical, than spiritual.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Again: Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Physical) and of the Spirit,(Spiritual) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
In other words, must have an earthly experience first.
So, that which is of the spiritual creation must first be of the 7, but is the eight, a new creation, one that has no end, and one which encompasses all of the first in one day, thus the statement being made truth: "Jesus was from the beginning".
When Jesus is given the authority to alone bare the sins of the world, He than to must be the beginning of life, as the beginning of life without end for all of us.
If so, than there is no other name under heaven by which mankind can be saved, save Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the beginning of life, not the first Adam, for in Adam all die, evidenced by the fact that regardless of who we are, we have an appointment with death physical, but afterwords, life without end given to us freely, without works as a free gift.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Thus Jesus is our God, or is God to us since it was He who paid the price for our redemption.
When we do expire from the physical, we shall see Him as God, for He is the one giving out the gift of grace as our redemption.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Has God come down to us? Of course He has, how else could God save His own creation had He not become like one of us to pay the price for us in a body created just for that purpose in the elimination of eternal separation (Death) and hell. (Place where departed spirits went because as of Jesus, there was no salvation).
What does all this mean than?
It means that we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus, though we know it or not.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Are brothers and sisters of all faiths and beliefs not brothers and sisters, since love or hate is the the determining factor as to whether we love God or not?
Which of you holds the corner on truth, that is if you believe in God?
And if you don't believe in God, it doesn't matter, for as a believer, I can not hate you if, I claim to love God.
You all see? There is no way around it, God is love and he loves all of us unconditionally like a father loves His children unconditionally.
Last verse: 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Which of us has the greater sin? That Jesus can not cover? Judas? The Pharisees? The Roman crucifier, the soldiers carrying out the task, who?
Did Jesus say He was God?
Need He say it?
Blessings, AJ
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Doesn't Revelation 3v14 B clearly state Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God?
God was the beginning of life according to Psalm 90v2.
God had no beginning.
Angels do not have to come to earth to populate the heavens.
Angels were created before people.
Angels are a spirit creation.
People are a physical creation.
True, to go to heaven, people would have to be born on earth before they can repent , make a dedication, and become a baptized Christian or one of Christ's spiritual 'brothers' Matt 25v40.
True some people will end up in heaven. Rev 5vs9,10;20v6; Matt 25v40
Those people will be part of the 'little flock' of Luke 12v32.
They do not become angels but saints or holy ones.
The 'other sheep' of John 10v16 are offered an earthly hope.
Everlasting life on earth like the sheep-like ones of Matt 25vs32,46.
Jesus did Not say he was God.
According to Jesus recorded words at John 10v36 Jesus states:...."I am the Son of God."
Decades after God resurrected Jesus to heaven, doesn't Jesus still believe at Rev 2v18 that he still is the Son of God. There is no Scripture that says Jesus resurrected himself.
By Genesis 2v4 we can discern that the word 'day' in Scripture has shades of meaning.
That is why all of the 6 creative days can be summed up as a day.
While the 7th day has still not ended. Paul recognized the 7th day as still on going in his day at Hebrews 4vs4-10.
Isn't Revelation about Jesus thousand-year day [Rev 20v6] ?
Or, Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth as the acting king of God's heavenly kingdom ? -Daniel 7vs13,14; 2v44.
God was the beginning of life according to Psalm 90v2.
God had no beginning.
Angels do not have to come to earth to populate the heavens.
Angels were created before people.
Angels are a spirit creation.
People are a physical creation.
True, to go to heaven, people would have to be born on earth before they can repent , make a dedication, and become a baptized Christian or one of Christ's spiritual 'brothers' Matt 25v40.
True some people will end up in heaven. Rev 5vs9,10;20v6; Matt 25v40
Those people will be part of the 'little flock' of Luke 12v32.
They do not become angels but saints or holy ones.
The 'other sheep' of John 10v16 are offered an earthly hope.
Everlasting life on earth like the sheep-like ones of Matt 25vs32,46.
Jesus did Not say he was God.
According to Jesus recorded words at John 10v36 Jesus states:...."I am the Son of God."
Decades after God resurrected Jesus to heaven, doesn't Jesus still believe at Rev 2v18 that he still is the Son of God. There is no Scripture that says Jesus resurrected himself.
By Genesis 2v4 we can discern that the word 'day' in Scripture has shades of meaning.
That is why all of the 6 creative days can be summed up as a day.
While the 7th day has still not ended. Paul recognized the 7th day as still on going in his day at Hebrews 4vs4-10.
Isn't Revelation about Jesus thousand-year day [Rev 20v6] ?
Or, Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth as the acting king of God's heavenly kingdom ? -Daniel 7vs13,14; 2v44.
...the beginning of the creation of God;...Yes, Jesus is the beginning of life spiritual, while Adam was the beginning of life physical.
But you see, Jesus had to be of the first, physical, so that as God, could conquer death and hell for us, again as God, for no human being after Adam could, save God in human form .
What you see in the book of Revelation is about that terrible day, where Jesus set in judgment, the great white throne judgment, for the sins of all humanity bar none.
Take for example this verse: Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Here we have a red horse representing the blood of Jesus as His weapon, and power was given Him to take peace, meaning that Israel is like Abel while Jesus is like cain, and that there was a double murder.
The one where Jesus executes the spiritual path to the Father away from the nation of Israel by stating, "Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Jesus just murdered Abel symbolically, while Cain was found and killed as well.
Ref: Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Sevenfold is Jesus' visiting all seven days of God's creation (sevenfold) as vengeance is taken out on Him at the cross, as all things becomes Christ.
Thus, Jesus was a marked man for the job, sort of speak, or created for that purpose, or as the beginning as stated in your opening verse.
Both beginnings, the physical and the spiritual. Though the spiritual Jesus is as God performing a feat that only God alone could do.
True! Yet there is a beginning of life, not the physical, but spiritual which must be from the beginning as God only could, thus stating, that Jesus as God was from the beginning.
I know it is hard to understand because of the indoctrination of the mind away from the simple truth.
I have no need to understand anything about angels except what is pertinent to me concerning my souls state after death.
My view is "all" will end up in heaven. The simple fact that mankind had no choice in being subjected to vanity without the benefit of delivering self out of that situation, only remains that God do something to rescue mankind Himself.
The supreme sacrifice, "once and for all" time includes all time mankind has been, is and shall be on the earth regardless of spiritual standing.
The day Jesus died on the cross was taken out of time, splitting time in half, ending the old and ushering the new, as never ending, while that day is good for all time and all peoples.
JOH 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. (The other fold) (Isreal) The flock that is scattered.
JOH 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
"I KNOW ""MY"" SHEEP. WHICH IMPLIES NOT ALL SHEEP ARE HIS.
JOH 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Can you guess who the other sheep are which are not of this fold that He also must rescue to make it one fold? ("Father forgive them for they know not what they do")
HERE Jesus IS SPEAKING OF THE OTHER FOLD. THIS FOLD BELONGS TO GOD NOW. THIS IS THE FLOCK THAT IS SCATTERED.
Jesus has just joined the two as one at the cross.
Though, one flock doesn't realize it as of today.
Who else but God could demand that the nation of Israel, who knew nothing but the law of Moses, suddenly be cut off from God and forced to go through Christ as their God? Hence the rejection?
Denotes, the full power of God in Jesus as God to demand compliance with "I am the way.....".
If Jesus had the power to deliver the souls from hell, he also had the power to resurrect Himself from hell.
But because Jesus was in full compliance with perfect obedience, He waited to the end of the second day for God to resurrect Hims and His prisoners.
You see, Jesus was not short of any full authority as God to deliver, but was in total obedience, even to the end at the cross.
Yes, true! "The day" as 7 days divided by one, is seen as three pictures of the same day.
The first picture is of the day divided by 4-6hour periods equaling to the first four days of creation. (4 beasts with six wings)
The second picture is divided by 2-12 hour periods equaling to the 5th and 6th day of creation. (The two witnesses)
the third picture is of the same day but whole 24hour period as the 7th day. (The 24 Elders)
So, the thousand year reign of Christ is as one day as well, for in that day, Jesus reigns supreme, and rightly so, for He was crowned King for the day.
The seveth day, Jesus rested from all His works evidenced by the entombing on the eve of the Sabbath.
Work is complete for all time.
What God has really done for us is this, allowed us to have our own soul at a cost to Him, yet at our own cost as far as our behavior is concerned.
Our deeds, good or bad are due and payable (Blessings or cursings)here on earth while we are still alive, but after this, God in Jesus has taken care of that matter at the cross.
"Hence, what ye sow shall ye reap"?
Absolutely!
Blessings, AJ
I find this thread needs a new perspective:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/101672-who-jesus.html
Jesus reached Tataghata level and he could save some people. However, now we are at the end times and Jesus can(may) not do anything(just like Sakyamuni and Lao Zi) to interfere with the Fa-rectification, besides church has no relevance to Jesus teachings at all.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/101672-who-jesus.html
Jesus reached Tataghata level and he could save some people. However, now we are at the end times and Jesus can(may) not do anything(just like Sakyamuni and Lao Zi) to interfere with the Fa-rectification, besides church has no relevance to Jesus teachings at all.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Nope. He "Explicitly" said that others could be one with his god as he was. At least that's with their book of John says.
ATAT
Member
That's another way of denying that he is claiming to be THE God.
gods' means something in Hebrew, the word includes men. So, don't think that a Son of God is claiming to be THE God, rather, all men are "gods", so, the crowd is confusing the Jewish notion of Son of God (God made human being directly, in contrast with Roman beliefs). The Romans think of a 'son of god' as when a god mates with a human being. Julius Caesar claimed to be a son of a god, and he was assassinated just 30 years prior for using that claim to take over the state, to be more than first among equals. The Romans didn't understand that the Jewish idea of men being 'gods' is not a play for power. Rather, we are all children of God, God made us. Jesus tried to put them at ease, he's not trying to take over the Roman Empire, all men are 'gods', don't get all riled up just because Jesus claimed to be something less than a god, he only claimed to be, like all good men, a son of God.
Mat 5:
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
gods' means something in Hebrew, the word includes men. So, don't think that a Son of God is claiming to be THE God, rather, all men are "gods", so, the crowd is confusing the Jewish notion of Son of God (God made human being directly, in contrast with Roman beliefs). The Romans think of a 'son of god' as when a god mates with a human being. Julius Caesar claimed to be a son of a god, and he was assassinated just 30 years prior for using that claim to take over the state, to be more than first among equals. The Romans didn't understand that the Jewish idea of men being 'gods' is not a play for power. Rather, we are all children of God, God made us. Jesus tried to put them at ease, he's not trying to take over the Roman Empire, all men are 'gods', don't get all riled up just because Jesus claimed to be something less than a god, he only claimed to be, like all good men, a son of God.
Mat 5:
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
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Good question, and how were Jesus and his Father one?
We already know Jesus believed his Father was greater at John 14v28; 10v29.
Since Jesus prayed in the 17th chapter of John that his followers be one just and he and his Father are one, then Jesus was not praying they all be God, or all become God, but they could all be one in purpose, goal, unity, belief, etc.
Jesus was making reference to: Psalm 82 vs 1,6.
Please notice that 'human judges' could be called gods. [small g]
They were called gods because they were to serve in the capacity of being God's representatives or God's spokespersons in carrying out God's wishes.
OK, let me take you to another reference: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,(gods, perhaps?) to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
To know good and evil is to be free to choose between the two as gods.
Blessings, AJ
Jesus was not referring to Gen 3v22, 5, but interesting because yes we are free to choose between the true God [Creator] or the god of his world of badness [Satan].-2 Cor 4v4.
Also, isn't to know good and evil being free to choose between what God says is right and wrong? But Adam and Satan were choosing: what was right or wrong in their own eyes separate from God's thinking on matters.
We can choose between what God says is right and wrong.
We can choose what we personally believe to be right or wrong.
Satan involves all of us in the issue that he started in Eden that we can decide for ourselves what is right or not. We can choose: do we think or believe God's way of ruling is the best way of ruling or governing?
Satan by saying 'a man' [Job 2v4] is involving all of us in his challenge.
Apply enough pressure [verse5] and sooner or later [a man] all will break integrity to God. Touch our 'bone and flesh' or in other words: loose health touch the person himself and see if he will still worship You [God]?
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled
Jesus in me
God does not need to reach a new level. He is already everything that He should be. Jesus is not just a person reaching for godliness, He is God in the flesh.
You would be hard pressed to prove this.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Let me put the reasoning of Jesus in perspective for you: John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 6 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
First Jesus shows how the scripture refers to "them" as gods (by using them, He isn't including Himself).
Next He reveals how He is different but superior to "them."
Finally His conclusion is that if they can be called gods, then why is it blasphemy for Jesus who is God in the flesh to call Himself God.
This is not a statement of being equivalent with gods but it is a statement of being superior to them.
ATAT
Member
He never called himself, "God". (if so, please provide the verse)
He said we all could be 'sons of God.' (the verse is Mat 5:9)
He normally called himself, 'Son of Man'. (that's not a claim to be God)
I agree Jesus thought of himself as special, a major teacher, teaching something Jesus considered absolutely critical.
See Mat 6 for his model prayer, note that Jesus never says that we have to believe he is God, not even in the prayer example he provided.
If Jesus claimed to be God, please provide the verse.
If Jesus deflects the critique by quoting a verse from the Old Testament, then note that that verse had an original writer, not Jesus, who also did not claim to be God. It would be odd if an Old Testament writer claimed to be God, too. Since he did not, neither did Jesus who used the old verse to prove the language Jesus was using was within the acceptable speach of Jews.
If Jesus really was God, then he could have said, simply, "Indeed I am God."
or, "It's not blasphemy to claim to be God when I am God."
Instead, he proves they misunderstood him, as was the case many times, according to the NT.
He said we all could be 'sons of God.' (the verse is Mat 5:9)
He normally called himself, 'Son of Man'. (that's not a claim to be God)
I agree Jesus thought of himself as special, a major teacher, teaching something Jesus considered absolutely critical.
See Mat 6 for his model prayer, note that Jesus never says that we have to believe he is God, not even in the prayer example he provided.
If Jesus claimed to be God, please provide the verse.
If Jesus deflects the critique by quoting a verse from the Old Testament, then note that that verse had an original writer, not Jesus, who also did not claim to be God. It would be odd if an Old Testament writer claimed to be God, too. Since he did not, neither did Jesus who used the old verse to prove the language Jesus was using was within the acceptable speach of Jews.
If Jesus really was God, then he could have said, simply, "Indeed I am God."
or, "It's not blasphemy to claim to be God when I am God."
Instead, he proves they misunderstood him, as was the case many times, according to the NT.
"Ye are god's" and there is God.
The former is made in the image of God, but not God.
The image of God as made in the flesh is a god. ("as one of us")
The difference between the two is separation, or death to one of the two, for two can not co-exist independent of each other as gods.
The God is the creator, gods are the created.
The created became lost in the creation, and God the creator understood to make recuperation for rescuing the gods lost in the creation process.
Thus a body for bodies was formed that should take the penalty for the bodies.
Instead of the bodies having to each pay the penalty of eternal separation (Death), the body formed for that purpose was to take the penalty for all bodies.
Thus grace given as a free gift for life.
That is in its simplest form the works of God.
In between are the stories, symbols, metaphors, similitude's, numbers, multiplications, doublings, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
All of the above are open for analysis in the quest to find answers to Gods works in the lives of mankind.
At least, that's the way I see it.
Blessings, AJ
The former is made in the image of God, but not God.
The image of God as made in the flesh is a god. ("as one of us")
The difference between the two is separation, or death to one of the two, for two can not co-exist independent of each other as gods.
The God is the creator, gods are the created.
The created became lost in the creation, and God the creator understood to make recuperation for rescuing the gods lost in the creation process.
Thus a body for bodies was formed that should take the penalty for the bodies.
Instead of the bodies having to each pay the penalty of eternal separation (Death), the body formed for that purpose was to take the penalty for all bodies.
Thus grace given as a free gift for life.
That is in its simplest form the works of God.
In between are the stories, symbols, metaphors, similitude's, numbers, multiplications, doublings, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
All of the above are open for analysis in the quest to find answers to Gods works in the lives of mankind.
At least, that's the way I see it.
Blessings, AJ