Did Jesus say he was God???

[Muffled]

He never called himself, "God". (if so, please provide the verse)

He said we all could be 'sons of God.' (the verse is Mat 5:9)

He normally called himself, 'Son of Man'. (that's not a claim to be God)

I agree Jesus thought of himself as special, a major teacher, teaching something Jesus considered absolutely critical.

See Mat 6 for his model prayer, note that Jesus never says that we have to believe he is God, not even in the prayer example he provided.

If Jesus claimed to be God, please provide the verse.

If Jesus deflects the critique by quoting a verse from the Old Testament, then note that that verse had an original writer, not Jesus, who also did not claim to be God. It would be odd if an Old Testament writer claimed to be God, too. Since he did not, neither did Jesus who used the old verse to prove the language Jesus was using was within the acceptable speach of Jews.

If Jesus really was God, then he could have said, simply, "Indeed I am God."
or, "It's not blasphemy to claim to be God when I am God."

Instead, he proves they misunderstood him, as was the case many times, according to the NT.

You are quite correct. However by saying that that there isn't any diffeence between Him and God isn't He saying the same thing although somewhat less directly? So if He is saying He is God indirectly, is it any less valid than saying He is God directly?

This is true. God lives in me. The problem is that I still have a lot of ego, so it is not a total indwelling. However these days I sometimes wonder where I begin and He leaves off.

He is that also. They are not mutually exclusive although it would have been possible for God to inhabit a body without going through conception and birth.

See the OP.

This logic is severely convoluted.

He could have but they would not have considered it good evidence. The Biblical evidence was something they could not deny.

A lot of people misunderstood Him and still do. That doesn't mean that there was a different meaning to that verse. Jesus was saying He was God and proving from scripture that He had a right to do so.

 

[Muffled]

Straight from the horses mouth

John 10:34-36 "Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

If he was trying to say that he was God himself, then he made a bit of a mess of it dont you think?

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

You can't get much more direct than that without saying it.

John10:33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Evidently the Jews believed that He was calling Himself God.

By defending His statement Jesus is not denying what He said or saying that He said something else but only that He had a right to say it without the charge of blasphemy being made.

 

[Muffled]

So, what does it mean to be 'God's Son'?

If I wrote, 'God's Messenger' is at the door. We would both conclude the person at the door is not God Himself, but someone speaking on behalf of God.

If I wrote, 'God's Universe', again, the Universe is not God, it was made by and belongs to God, but is not God.

If I wrote, "God's Daughter", again, this person is special, important, made by God, owned by God, but nobody would think that someone claiming to be 'God's Daughter' is claiming to be God Himself.

She might speak for God, embody God, we might see God in her spiritually, etc.

Jesus preferred, 'Son of Man' and said we are all 'God's children'.

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Julius Caesar was assassinated just 30 years before Jesus was born. Caesar was assassinated, in part, because he claimed to be a son of a god. To the Romans, not everybody was made by God.
Great leaders were sons of gods who mated with women, bad peoples were made from excrement.

The Jewish idea was unknown, we are all made by God, we are all God's children.

To the local Roman authorities, there was a confusion. Any talk of being a son of a god meant you were claiming to be a rebel leader.

Jesus wanted to be a spiritual leader, not a leader of arms.

He also held the Jewish value of we are all God's children because, unlike some, he believed that God made all of mankind, even if your mother concieved you out of wedlock, you still deserved to be considered a Son of God.

There's no major figure in all of history who went through so much trouble as to claim NOT to be God as Jesus, every chance he could, he either said God 'sent' him or that he, Jesus, was Son of Man.

If pressed, yes, he, like all of us, is a Son of God. Because, unlike Roman religion, that was the Jewish religion.

Clash of cultures.

Naturally, when the Romans converted, en masse to Jesus' religion, this subtlety was lost because the Romans were not Jewish and didn't distinguish.

The Qu'ran correctly states that God does not have sons ie as a spirit there is no way for him to procreate.

Son of God is an amalgram of two truths. 1. Jesus is God 2. He is a son.
It is a recognition that Jesus isn't just any old son but special due to His divinity.

Say a person claimed to be the son of Pope Clement. We would expect him to be like Clement in some ways and we would not expect him to be like Pope Leo. So for Jesus although God does not bear children the fact that Jesus is of God means that He has to be like God and with His other claims that He is equivalent to God He has to be like Him in every way. So we would not expect Jesus to be like any other man except in his physical appearance.

 

[look3467]

I think all of this is faith-based.

100%

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

There is a reason why Jesus does not state directly that He is God and that is because He is in a form of a man, born of mankind, as one of us, so that as one of us, He could fulfill the righteousness required by God for us, seeming that only God Himself could only fulfill His own righteousness and not the creature created. (us).

The whole picture of God and mankind is one where God creates mankind to be in likeness to His image.
That likeness is not necessary a physical resemblance, but in character.

To know good and evil is to posses both extremes and having the ability to choose between both, making us like gods.(Lower case g)

That required a separation from God resulting in the death of the lesser.

God knowing full well the results instituted a means by which He could save His creation.

And that method was to only crucify one instead of many as a resultant originally.

The dead of one led then to the salvation of many.

You see the picture?

This picture is painted throughout the whole of the bible.

The book of Job, is in similitude to Jesus, read it, study it and you will see Jesus and what He went through as He offerred Himself as the one to be offered instead of us all.

Again, let me emphasize, that the importance of Jesus being in a servant attitude verses in a God attitude, is so that He as like us, as one of us could meet all the requirements with God's own righteousness for us, in order that we may be set free from the cures of His creative process: that being death.

Jesus said: Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

You see, as a servant Jesus could not claim to be equal to or greater than a mere servant, for only one is greater, and that is He that sent Him.

But because He came to be a ransom for many, the only thing that would qualify Him for that purpose is if it would be in the full power, and authority as God to do so.

Unless you all can see it that way, there will never be an end to this argument.

But it can end here and now to any of you individually by simply accepting Jesus as your ransom in faith.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Blackdog22]

There is a reason why Jesus does not state directly that He is God

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

I will post that two more times for clarification.

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

and once more.

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

 

[look3467]

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

I will post that two more times for clarification.

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

and once more.

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

I understand that completely! I am stating that Jesus could not, would not have any praise given Him as that would glorify Him above God in human form.

It was not until Jesus was resurrected that He could declare Himself as God by this statement: Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

As a son of man title, Jesus was a servant as stated in Job: Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

Jesus knew not the end as He stated: Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

You see, Jesus had to be fully man in order to justify paying the price of death for us.

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John10:30 I and the Father are one.
I will post that two more times for clarification.
John10:30 I and the Father are one.
and once more.
John10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 10v29 Jesus Father is greater than all
John 10v29 Jesus Father is greater than all
John 10v29 Jesus father is greater than all

John 17v11 may they be one as we are one
John 17v21 they all may be one
John 17v21 they also may be one in us
John 17v22 may be one even as we are one
John 17v23 may be made perfect in one

Surely Jesus was not praying they all be God but one in unity, purpose, faith, goal, belief, agreement, objective, etc.

P.S. What does John 14v28 B say?______

 

[ZooGirl02]

Well, in the Bible, He does make it abundantly clear that He is God.

This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.
(John 5:18 RSV)

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
(John 8:58 RSV)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, in the Bible, He does make it abundantly clear that He is God.
This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.
(John 5:18 RSV)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
(John 8:58 RSV)

How does Jesus make it abundantly clear he is God?
There is No Scripture where Jesus straightforwardly says that he is God.
At John 5v18 the 'Jews' began seeking to kill because the 'Jews' were saying that Jesus broke the Sabbath [Jesus did not], and the 'Jews' were saying Jesus was calling God his Father, making himself equal to God.
But is that what Jesus said?
Continuing in the 5th chapter at vs 26 it mentions that the Father [God] has life in himself [immortal Ps90v2] and that God grants or gives to Jesus to have life in himself [immortality]. God can not die. Jesus died. Who resurrected Jesus? Did Jesus resurrect himself from hell? Acts 2v27,31,32 Or according to Scripture, did the living God resurrected the dead Jesus?

Continuing at verse 30 doesn't Jesus say he seeks Not his own will?
Jesus seeks the will of him [God] that sent Jesus. [Jn 6v38; Mt26v39;Lk22v42]

At John chapter 10v36 doesn't Jesus clearly state to the Jews, "I am the Son of God."? This is after verse 29 where Jesus clearly says his Father is greater than all. Isn't that clearly in harmony with John 14v28 where Jesus clearly states his Father is greater than I -[Jesus]?

Going back to John chapter 5 in verse 17 Jesus says that his Father works and Jesus works. So in verse 18 the Jews could refer to Jesus work saying he was equal to work with his Father's work. Verse 19 Jesus lets the Jews know that the Son [Jesus] can do nothing of himself. [nothing of his own initiative] but only what he sees his Father do. So Jesus was not acting of his own accord or his own will but doing his Father's will ahead of his own will.

Of course Jesus existed before Abraham. Wasn't the spirit world created before the material physical world? Since Colossians 1vs15,16 says Jesus is 'firstborn' in the heavenly realm and all things came 'through' Jesus, then Jesus would have to come before Abraham and even before Adam.
Isn't that why the resurrected Jesus could clearly state at Rev 3v14 b that he [Jesus] is the beginning of the creation by God?

The resurrected Jesus is also clear in stating who he is at Rev 2v18.
Doesn't the heavenly Jesus still clearly think he is: the Son of God?
Doesn't Jesus still believe he has a God to worship at Rev 3v12?
Doesn't Jesus have his own separate throne at Rev 3v21?

People saw Jesus. So just as John believed at John 1v18 that: No man has seen God at anytime [Ex33v20], and 'for the record' John wrote that he bare record at John 1v34 that Jesus is: the Son of God.

 

[look3467]

Question? Answer me the intent of this saying, "I drove the final nail into the coffin".

Did I really actually drive a real nail with a real hammer in to the coffin?

Or, does it mean that I was the one to finally put a stop to that person?

Did I say that I actually killed the person?

By the same token, Jesus being the Son of God, and that He had the power to forgive sins, made Him in the eyes of the High priests a blasphemer for making Himself equal with God.

When Jesus never really stated He was as God acting in His behalf, and in our behalf in the salvation of mankind.

blessings, AJ

 

[jaareshiah]

John10:30 I and the Father are one.

You can't get much more direct than that without saying it.

Because Jesus said that "the Father and I are one" at John 10:30, does this mean that he is God ? Consider this: After God had just made Eve, God then said: "That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh."(Gen 2:24) Jesus quoted from this verse, telling the Pharisees: "Did you not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh."(Matt 19:4-6)

Does this mean that every married couple literally becomes "one flesh" ? Anyone who is reasonable, recognizes that a married couple of husband and wife, works together as "one flesh", one unit, working in harmony, just as any automobile engine with all it's various components is to work seamlessly together as "one". When an engine's internal component, such as a rod "decides to leave", then there is usually a hole in the side of the block, having "jumped ship." No longer are they working as "one."

Later, on the night before his death, Jesus said in prayer concerning his disciples: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"(John 17:22, King James Bible) Hence, if it is to be accepted that Jesus and God are literally one, then so also must his disciples be literally "one".

Thus, to say that Jesus is God because of the wording at John 10:30 is distorting the real meaning of Jesus words.

So what was Jesus saying ? That they were in harmony, unity, for a modern English translation reads at John 17:20, 21: "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth."(New World Translation)

John10:33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Evidently the Jews believed that He was calling Himself God.

By defending His statement Jesus is not denying what He said or saying that He said something else but only that He had a right to say it without the charge of blasphemy being made.

The reading of the King James Bible at John 10:33 gives the impression that Jesus had said that he was God. But is this correct ? In Koine Greek, there is a definite article "the" (Greek ho) that is used to identify someone specifically, such as "the God", "the Lord". However, Koine Greek does not have an indefinite article such as "a" or "an". This lack of having an indefinite article has caused many to wrongly read into a Scripture that which is not there, such as the King James reading that the Jews felt that Jesus was ' making himself God."

Had John wanted to ensure that verse 33 should read as "God", he would have inserted ho (the in English) into the sentence, just as he did at John 1:1, 2, whereby it says literally "the God" in two of the three instances where the word "god" is used. (the use of "god" in the latter part of verse 1 without the definite article changes it from "the God" to "a god".)

There are two examples in the King James Bible, whereby "god" without a definite article was rendered as "a god", instead of "God, " at Acts 12:22 and Acts 28:6. Why did the translators of the King James Bible render these verses as "a god" instead of "God", since John 10:33 is also without the definite article ho just as these were ? Because of context, whereby there is no definite article, but there is a definite article at Acts 12:23 and is rendered as "God".

However, due to the strangle hold of the trinity in so many people's minds, that there has been a conscious effort made to twist the real meaning of who Jesus is, that, instead of God, that he is "the (definite article) Christ, the (definite article) Son of the (definite article) living God." (Matt 16:16)

 

[look3467]

Keep in mind the nature of the mission Jesus was to perform, of which only God could perform it.

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Keep in mind the nature of the mission Jesus was to perform, of which only God could perform it.
Blessings, AJ

How could God die? God can not die. Psalm 90v2 from everlasting to everlasting

When Jesus died, did Jesus resurrect himself? Or according to Scripture who resurrected the dead Jesus?____________

 

[look3467]

How could God die? God can not die. Psalm 90v2 from everlasting to everlasting

When Jesus died, did Jesus resurrect himself? Or according to Scripture who resurrected the dead Jesus?____________

Here is the big picture as outlined in the whole of the bible, making Jesus the focal point of all of it.

If, Jesus were Adam, Jesus would have to die right?Did not Adam die? Yes, Adam and all his decedents were cursed with the curse of death.

Here is the beauty of God's plan.

From God's creation of Adam and Eve, billions of souls were born, died and still living today, and will be tomorrow.

All these souls were under the curse of death by the first Adam. (Death meaning, eternal separation)

God then withheld the tree of life till a designated time in human history to introduce it to His creation.

Enter: a second type of Adam, Jesus!

Jesus is made of the same stock as the first Adam but without the curse, because as God representative on earth, Jesus is perfect in righteousness, because He has the righteousness of the Father.

Side note: It can be also said, if you wanted to go deeper into the word, that Jesus is of the 7, but the eight.

The 7 meaning representing all of the 7 day creation of God the Father.

And the eight, meaning He is the new creation, or the beginning of a new week of 7's that has no end.

Getting back: the exchange for all the souls of all mankind is God's offering.

Ref:Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus is the ram given in place of Isaac, ref: Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

We are the Issac's of the world, and Jesus is the Ram offered by God as a Ransom for us Issac's.

Jesus therefore, with the full authority of God, as God, had the power to forgive sins and to become, by free will, the sacrifice of His soul in exchange for the many.

Jesus was willing to gain the whole world and loose His own soul in the process.

Of which when He called out to the Father, God was silent, meaning to Jesus, you must go all the way with this, for there can be nothing short of full completion.

God in all His wisdom knew exactly what He was doing all the time with Jesus that He said about and to Jesus in the prophecies: Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus must die the thousand death's of mankind in order that mankind may have life.

Recall reading in Genesis: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We can as of two thousand years ago, now reach for and eat of the fruit of the tree of life, which is Jesus.

God does and cannot die, but the soul of Jesus did, as all before Him did.

But because Jesus has the sins of the world on Him God said this about Him: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

God cleansed and made Jesus pure by forgiving His Son of all sin and make Him as white as snow.

In return, Jesus has made His spouse (us) pure as white snow, free of sin and worthy of eternal life in Him.

In Jesus, we are born again, not from the first Adam, but of the second Adam, which is spiritual.

There, you have the whole picture.

It is that simple, but mankind has clouded it all up in the many differing view points.

The simple truth is: God created and God saved His own creation period.

In between, we are, as part of His creation, His salvation.

That is why nothing we do here in the physical will amount to anything worthy of salvation.

What God saw as worthy of salvation was our souls, which are all spiritual.

But first, the natural and then, that which is spiritual follows that pattern.

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

RE: Jesus must die the thousands of deaths of mankind....

Doesn't ^Hebrews 9vs 25-28^ show Christ's 'one' sacrifice is sufficient?

Souls can die [ Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23]
Adam was a living soul [Gen 2v7] At death Adam became a dead soul.

Since Jesus ransom sacrifice covers 'many' [Matt 20v28] and Not all,
then all are not saved because those of Matt 12v32 and Hebrews 6vs4-6 are not survivors. They will not be part of Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Thankfully the majority of mankind will be saved. Romans 6v7
Starting with saving those living sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32.
They can be saved alive and remain alive and keep alive living right into the start of Jesus reign over earth when the earthly globe will once again see paradisaic conditions.

 

[sojourner]

RE: Jesus must die the thousands of deaths of mankind....

Doesn't ^Hebrews 9vs 25-28^ show Christ's 'one' sacrifice is sufficient?

Souls can die [ Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23]
Adam was a living soul [Gen 2v7] At death Adam became a dead soul.

Since Jesus ransom sacrifice covers 'many' [Matt 20v28] and Not all,
then all are not saved because those of Matt 12v32 and Hebrews 6vs4-6 are not survivors. They will not be part of Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Thankfully the majority of mankind will be saved. Romans 6v7
Starting with saving those living sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32.
They can be saved alive and remain alive and keep alive living right into the start of Jesus reign over earth when the earthly globe will once again see paradisaic conditions.

How can there be a "majority" of humanity? That's like saying, "He's mostly dead," or "the math problem is mostly right." There is only humanity in the eyes of God. And God will save humanity.

 

[look3467]

Doesn't ^Hebrews 9vs 25-28^ show Christ's 'one' sacrifice is sufficient?

Absolutely! There is not one sin that is not covered by the blood of Jesus!

Souls can die [ Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23]
Adam was a living soul [Gen 2v7] At death Adam became a dead soul.

Adam's soul died which,technically in meaning, that Adam was not able to return to the kingdom of God as a seperate entity, or in other words, as a god (Lower case g)for he was cast out because of it, which again is death..

Soul sleep simply means, my opinion, a departed soul not having a home, as like in a prison. Other terms used is hell.

Since Jesus ransom sacrifice covers 'many' [Matt 20v28] and Not all,

If you stop to reason for a minute, the fault for Adam being cast out was not Adam's, but God's because of the designed fault.

The designed fault I termed is because as gods, we become separated (Dead) from God in the creative process, and in need of God's redemption.

Similar to a son leaving his father and mother to become one with his wife.

The son relationship is still there, but the union is severed because of the bride, or in other words, the union between the son, father and mother is severed, or no longer is it the father and mothers responsibility for the son's choices.

The son becomes a separate entity, or as his own man.

then all are not saved because those of Matt 12v32 and Hebrews 6vs4-6 are not survivors. They will not be part of Jesus millennial reign over earth.

The decision you have to settle in your mind is in this verse: Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

What was "that" which was lost, and was it all lost, a portion of it, some, many, which do you think it is?

Thankfully the majority of mankind will be saved. Romans 6v7

Jesus would not have settled for just the majority, but would take no less than all!

Ref: Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.


Just the cup, was not sufficient for God, but the running over, meant to include all the rest.

Ref:Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

For just Israel, the wine holders were filled to the brim.

Starting with saving those living sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32.
They can be saved alive and remain alive and keep alive living right into the start of Jesus reign over earth when the earthly globe will once again see paradisaic conditions.

The day Jesus came into your heart, you gave Him presence, a place to rest His head, a place where Jesus may abide in your heart to reign in your heart, is where it all begins.

Life begin/started at that point for you, no need to wait for Jesus to come.

Blessings, AJ

Joh 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

 

[look3467]

How can there be a "majority" of humanity? That's like saying, "He's mostly dead," or "the math problem is mostly right." There is only humanity in the eyes of God. And God will save humanity.

Either it's all or nothing.

If someone can answer me this question, than I might consider the word majority.

The question is: was any of us given a choice to be born in the flesh?

If the answer is no, than it must apply to "all".

Blessings, AJ

 

[sojourner]

Either it's all or nothing.

If someone can answer me this question, than I might consider the word majority.

The question is: was any of us given a choice to be born in the flesh?

If the answer is no, than it must apply to "all".

Blessings, AJ

Well, I happen to believe that we were given a choice...
But I still believe that salvation applies to all or none.