Did Jesus say he was God???

[look3467]

Well, I happen to believe that we were given a choice...
But I still believe that salvation applies to all or none.

How is it that you happen to believe that you were given a choice in being born in the flesh?
Is it documented somewhere?

Blessings, AJ

 

[Muffled]

Because Jesus said that "the Father and I are one" at John 10:30, does this mean that he is God ? Consider this: After God had just made Eve, God then said: "That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh."(Gen 2:24) Jesus quoted from this verse, telling the Pharisees: "Did you not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh."(Matt 19:4-6)

Does this mean that every married couple literally becomes "one flesh" ? Anyone who is reasonable, recognizes that a married couple of husband and wife, works together as "one flesh", one unit, working in harmony, just as any automobile engine with all it's various components is to work seamlessly together as "one". When an engine's internal component, such as a rod "decides to leave", then there is usually a hole in the side of the block, having "jumped ship." No longer are they working as "one."

Later, on the night before his death, Jesus said in prayer concerning his disciples: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"(John 17:22, King James Bible) Hence, if it is to be accepted that Jesus and God are literally one, then so also must his disciples be literally "one".

Thus, to say that Jesus is God because of the wording at John 10:30 is distorting the real meaning of Jesus words.

So what was Jesus saying ? That they were in harmony, unity, for a modern English translation reads at John 17:20, 21: "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth."(New World Translation)

The reading of the King James Bible at John 10:33 gives the impression that Jesus had said that he was God. But is this correct ? In Koine Greek, there is a definite article "the" (Greek ho) that is used to identify someone specifically, such as "the God", "the Lord". However, Koine Greek does not have an indefinite article such as "a" or "an". This lack of having an indefinite article has caused many to wrongly read into a Scripture that which is not there, such as the King James reading that the Jews felt that Jesus was ' making himself God."

Had John wanted to ensure that verse 33 should read as "God", he would have inserted ho (the in English) into the sentence, just as he did at John 1:1, 2, whereby it says literally "the God" in two of the three instances where the word "god" is used. (the use of "god" in the latter part of verse 1 without the definite article changes it from "the God" to "a god".)

There are two examples in the King James Bible, whereby "god" without a definite article was rendered as "a god", instead of "God, " at Acts 12:22 and Acts 28:6. Why did the translators of the King James Bible render these verses as "a god" instead of "God", since John 10:33 is also without the definite article ho just as these were ? Because of context, whereby there is no definite article, but there is a definite article at Acts 12:23 and is rendered as "God".

However, due to the strangle hold of the trinity in so many people's minds, that there has been a conscious effort made to twist the real meaning of who Jesus is, that, instead of God, that he is "the (definite article) Christ, the (definite article) Son of the (definite article) living God." (Matt 16:16)

No. This is not introvertible proof, since there could be a man's spirit within as well as God's spirit as it is with the Paraclete. My belief stems from two sources. 1. The statement that Jesus is without sin (That could not be true if another spirit was present) 2. God does not have partners. The mission of Jesus was one that he would be unlikely to entrust to a sinful spirit. In this same line of reasoning, Why would God want another spirit in the Body with Him? Could He not do the mission better by himself? Why would God want to share the glory?

One flesh as one purpose is not the same thing as one.

I am the one flesh of my parents. So not all couples achieve this although it was definitely in God's plan in the beginning.

Literally does not necessarily mean exactly. I am one with God as Jesus was but not exactly as Jesus was. You could say I fly as a bird flies in an airplane but the reality is that I don't fly exactly as a bird flies.

This appears to be an interpetation not a translation. Has the NWT come up with an actual english translation instead of the literal garbage that I read years ago? Even then it appeared to me that the NWT took liberties with the Word in order to promote the beliefs of the organization.

Exactly. Looking at the trees does not always tell you what the forest is like. The difference between God and a god does not hang on an article but on the context of the passage. Jesus equates Himself to the Father. If the jews recognized The Father as meaning God there must be a reson for it. Here it is:
John 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Any person knowledgeable about God would recognize that He is the only one who is greater than all. Jesus could ony have been equating Himself with God and the Pharisees knew it.

I am not beholding to any theological position. Jesus is my Lord not the church. As a result my views are as objective as Jesus allows.

 

[Muffled]

How can there be a "majority" of humanity? That's like saying, "He's mostly dead," or "the math problem is mostly right." There is only humanity in the eyes of God. And God will save humanity.

Nice try. However the Bible is replete with instances of God paying close attention to individuals. God will save those who are willing to be saved.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

However the Bible is replete with instances of God paying close attention to individuals. God will save those who are willing to be saved.

Muffled- Just thought your ^above^ words bears repeating.


Acts 17vs27-31; Isaiah 55v6; Deut 4v29.

 

[kingsherald]

Nice try. However the Bible is replete with instances of God paying close attention to individuals. God will save those who are willing to be saved.

Yes, God saves those who are willing to be saved, but none are willing until God makes them willing. Being dead in trespasses and sins, no one can of his own will come forth to Christ to be saved. You must be born again. God must first make alive the sinner and put within him the conviction of sin and the desire to be saved from his sin. Salvation is not of the will of man, but of God. It is all of God from beginning to end, of His free unmerited favor, His grace that saves, so that no human being may boast in His sight.

 

[look3467]

Yes, God saves those who are willing to be saved, but none are willing until God makes them willing. Being dead in trespasses and sins, no one can of his own will come forth to Christ to be saved. You must be born again. God must first make alive the sinner and put within him the conviction of sin and the desire to be saved from his sin. Salvation is not of the will of man, but of God. It is all of God from beginning to end, of His free unmerited favor, His grace that saves, so that no human being may boast in His sight.

"Yes, God saves those who are willing to be saved"

is correct only first if, knowledge of the tree of life is availed, via a messenger prompt by the Holy Spirit.

What I am saying is this: Salvation is there already for the taking because it is a gift.

Knowledge of that gift being available depends on the Holy Spirits leading.

"but none are willing until God makes them willing."

that is scriptural!

"Salvation is not of the will of man, but of God"

That is what Jesus is all about!

It is all of God from beginning to end, of His free unmerited favor, His grace that saves, so that no human being may boast in His sight.

Exactly!

Blessings, AJ

 

[Muffled]

Yes, God saves those who are willing to be saved, but none are willing until God makes them willing. Being dead in trespasses and sins, no one can of his own will come forth to Christ to be saved. You must be born again. God must first make alive the sinner and put within him the conviction of sin and the desire to be saved from his sin. Salvation is not of the will of man, but of God. It is all of God from beginning to end, of His free unmerited favor, His grace that saves, so that no human being may boast in His sight.

You must be a dyed in the wool calvinist. Since God is willing that al be saved then all should be saved by your reckoning. All one needs do is read the newspaper to see that not all are saved.

IF you are going to say that God only loves and saves an elect, then what do you do with John 3:16?

What do you do with this verse? John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

or Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

 

[look3467]

I believe that you Muffled and kingsherald and I are meaning the same thing but saying it in different ways.

Here is my take: Salvation is done and paid for, no if's and but's.

The opportunity to gain knowledge of it and accepting it is what we are saying as being saved, verses the ones who have no knowledge of and or do not what to accept it.

The latter, remain unsaved until they do acknowledge or at death when they will see Jesus face to face.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Muffled]

I believe that you Muffled and kingsherald and I are meaning the same thing but saying it in different ways.

Here is my take: Salvation is done and paid for, no if's and but's.

The opportunity to gain knowledge of it and accepting it is what we are saying as being saved, verses the ones who have no knowledge of and or do not what to accept it.

The latter, remain unsaved until they do acknowledge or at death when they will see Jesus face to face.

Blessings, AJ

For salvation to be done and paid for Jesus has to be God. God will not accept payment by man. However all this does is give us a ticket (that we didn't have to pay for). If we want to get in the show we have to believe the ticket belongs to us and not throw it away and then we have to present it to the ticket taker.

The Calvinists pretend that God forces a person to gain that knowledge and accept it. That is not the case. God influences us by providing knowledge through messengers and often motivates by making life so miserable a person is willing to seek that salvation but the person still has a will of their own and God does not interfere with that other than influencing the person. For instance, in my case a cousin was spouting Bible stuff that sounded like nonsense to me but I didn't know my Bible well enough to debate. That was a message from God to read the Bible. In addition to that there were elements of life I needed to be saved from (I wouldn't be surprised if God had a lot to do with that). The Biblical words themselves didn't make me willing and the difficulties of life I could have endured. I simply decided that I wanted what God had to offer. It is like the parable of the prodigal son, I came to myself and realized I was better off with my Father in Heaven.

A person who doesn't want Jesus is not likely to see Him after death.

 

[look3467]

For salvation to be done and paid for Jesus has to be God. God will not accept payment by man. However all this does is give us a ticket (that we didn't have to pay for). If we want to get in the show we have to believe the ticket belongs to us and not throw it away and then we have to present it to the ticket taker.

In response to your first sentence, Absolutely!
Second sentence. Correct!
Third sentence. The ticket is paid for, on going, past and all future unborn souls.
The privilege of knowing about it in the present is given to a few of which becomes a responsibility to share it with the world in God's kind of kindness, gentleness and love for our neighbor.
Otherwise, many have to go through live experiencing hell without God and any comfort, not even a drop of water on the tip of one's finger, yet, at the end, shall they see Jesus for who He really is.

That is my understanding after pondering that question all of my life and coming to an understanding after studying the word. Reading allot of books about other religious beliefs in a quest to find the thread that looped through all of them in an effort to find God's perspective on all of them.

The Calvinists pretend that God forces a person to gain that knowledge and accept it.

Saul was converted not by choice to Paul as God's demand of him, of which afterwords, Paul became voluntary, willing and faithful.

Abraham was moved, pushed, nudged into moving from his place to a foreign land.

There are a few more instances where God directly intervened in the lives of people in order to accomplish His goals.

God influences us by providing knowledge through messengers and often motivates by making life so miserable a person is willing to seek that salvation but the person still has a will of their own and God does not interfere with that other than influencing the person.

I will agree with you to this extent, "God influences us by providing knowledge through messengers".
But as for God making life miserable is not consistent with God's character.
This world is hell enough without God.

What God does do is let us alone to the world and the world is our whipping boy.

God is a rescuer. Would you put your child through hell just so that they may come back to you or would you just pray and let the world bring them back to you by their taste of what hell is?

Does what I just said ring a bell with what you said?

I came to myself and realized I was better off with my Father in Heaven.

God is love, and when it says God chastens those He loves, simply means, OK, go ahead, live your life the way you want and after you can't take it any more....look me up.

You see, we have been conditioned to a heaven or hell attitude which places God in a mean and angry God, which He ain't.

God is a loving God and proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Look at Jesus!

What more should we ask for that has been given with our asking?

Blessings, AJ

 

[waitasec]

Nice try. However the Bible is replete with instances of God paying close attention to individuals. God will save those who are willing to be saved.

i need to interject here,

and fear him...

 

[waitasec]

or more importantly...
Matt. 25:35, 36
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

being saved by works was what your christ taught...
paul, being the cleaver guy he was, said it is only by "faith"
and of course you can back up your claim that it is faith by using john 3:16
but don't stop there;
John 3:19-21
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
keep talking....christians...that's all you can do really
it is by your works that will set you apart.
btw, where is your faith? i only see the need for control
"the way i believe is right your way is wrong" get over yourselves now will ya
and be a beacon through your good works....
so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

[look3467]

Waitasec

Would you say that your works are the basis for gaining your salvation?
As in no works, no faith thereby, no salvation?

Wait a second.....Just what did Christ come to do... and why did He say "it is finished"?

Was it His works that meant anything to us? Or skip His or include to gather with ours as mandatory to completion, so that we may say, I've done it, it is finished?

Or is His works sufficient to save me?

Blessings, AJ

 

[Kriya Yogi]

Jesus is one with God and is able to express all of God's qualities if God willing, but he never says I am God in the essence that he is the one and only Father expressed in his bodily temple. Rather Jesus was an awakened soul and mirror of God's being reflecting to all of us the potential we all have within. He was also a messenger of God's enlightening words since Jesus was ever intune and present with our Heavenly Father or Divine Mother. He was there to show that we all are made in the same image of God, just as he is.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec

Would you say that your works are the basis for gaining your salvation?
As in no works, no faith thereby, no salvation?

Wait a second.....Just what did Christ come to do... and why did He say "it is finished"?

Was it His works that meant anything to us? Or skip His or include to gather with ours as mandatory to completion, so that we may say, I've done it, it is finished?

Or is His works sufficient to save me?

Blessings, AJ

the way i see it is
you show your faith by works
read james 2
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

and

jesus described in matt. 25:31-45 the final judgment as being based solely and entirely on works to internalized compassion. jesus makes it very clear that those who DO express universal compassion thru works WILL BE SAVED, and those who do not will NOT be saved.period. there is no other qualification.

the good samaritan...

believing salvation thru faith is promoting mediocrity and the character of jesus was far from that...

john 3:22 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what HE has done has been done through God."[h]

you think jesus was referring to himself... read it again....
you have faith and you show your faith thru works

sell your possessions and follow christ...
or is your faith
"give us this day our daily bread" and not "forgive us as we forgive those that trespass against us" which is works isn't it?

 

[look3467]

Jesus is one with God and is able to express all of God's qualities if God willing, but he never says I am God in the essence that he is the one and only Father expressed in his bodily temple. Rather Jesus was an awakened soul and mirror of God's being reflecting to all of us the potential we all have within. He was also a messenger of God's enlightening words since Jesus was ever intune and present with our Heavenly Father or Divine Mother. He was there to show that we all are made in the same image of God, just as he is.

Who but God can forgive sins?

Ref:Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

You decide, you are in agreement with the pharisee's or you believe Jesus when He said :Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

If you believe that Jesus has the power of God to forgive sins, then rise up to the occasion, and have faith in Him and be not as the pharisee's.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

waitasec,

I do not disagree with your point, the problem lies in the fact that before any good works can be done, there first must be a renewing of your spirit.

What that means is that you must be born again so that the works done in you are of God's, otherwise, they are done in your own power, which the bible speaks of as stubble, wood or straw, that when the fire of the Holy Spirit tries them, will burn up as loss to you.

Before you can spend any money, you first must acquire it. That is what James is trying to point out, but we fail to see it because we are conditioned to thinking that we MUST do good works, when God does them in us when we first aquire Him as our Lord and Savior of our souls.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Kriya Yogi]

Who but God can forgive sins?

Ref:Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

You decide, you are in agreement with the pharisee's or you believe Jesus when He said :Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

If you believe that Jesus has the power of God to forgive sins, then rise up to the occasion, and have faith in Him and be not as the pharisee's.

Blessings, AJ

Of course God forgives our sins. He wouldn't be all forgiving and compassionate if he didn't or hesitated to forgive us. He forgives our sins before we even make them. It is ourselves that must forgive ourselves of sins and repent from doing them again.

 

[look3467]

Of course God forgives our sins. He wouldn't be all forgiving and compassionate if he didn't or hesitated to forgive us. He forgives our sins before we even make them. It is ourselves that must forgive ourselves of sins and repent from doing them again.

Couldn't agree with you more. You can bank on it.

If a person chooses to live this life without God's help, then it is at their own peril.

Always, though God will be there for a rescue. Now, if that is not Compassion of the unmerited kind.

Blessings, AJ

 

[waitasec]

waitasec,

I do not disagree with your point, the problem lies in the fact that before any good works can be done, there first must be a renewing of your spirit.

What that means is that you must be born again so that the works done in you are of God's, otherwise, they are done in your own power, which the bible speaks of as stubble, wood or straw, that when the fire of the Holy Spirit tries them, will burn up as loss to you.

Before you can spend any money, you first must acquire it. That is what James is trying to point out, but we fail to see it because we are conditioned to thinking that we MUST do good works, when God does them in us when we first aquire Him as our Lord and Savior of our souls.

Blessings, AJ

the "renewing of your spirit"
translates to me as
the dignified are led by level of their dignity...

you can only be true to yourself and it is the degree of regret/mediocrity that we set for ourselves.