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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
On the contrary, He is saying that when He says the He and the father are one.
Jesus never says this.
This should have been obvious from Genesis but somehow the Sadducees got sidetracked.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is true but inadequate. God all through the Bible has made it clear that listening to Him and obeying His instructions saves a person. That is the basic tenet of Islam also. However God has recognized that there are times when people do not have the power to save themselves and need God to intervene ie Exodus.
Paul says in Eph 2:8, 9 that we are saved by grace through faith. For instance when Israel was allowed to leave Egypt, it was not by the prowess of the people but because God provided a way for them to leave. All they had to do was believe that they could leave (by having faith in what God had done) and do so. Now as James says if they believed they could leave and didn't, shame on them becasue faith without works is dead. Now Moses thought he could save his people by works but that didn't work for him and he fled Egypt.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
It is by this interpretation that the biblical Yeshua "must" be "God"......even though your own scripture says "God" gives or gave the ability to others to be saviors. Even your own biblical Yeshua confirms that he was "given" the ability to do the things he did by the god that "sent".....So we, once again, come full circle on the blaring declaration by Christians that Yeshua is "God"..when in fact your scriptures...in various places by Yeshua himself says otherwise...
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
No he isn't. This is expressed in his prayer to his god as well...that the disciples be one with him as he is one with his god. The oneness is in purpose.
So if I'm to understand you....The biblical Yeshua was in fact..."made" in the image of his god?????
If so then how can he be "God" if he is made by "God" in his image? It sounds that if he is the one being made then he isn't the one doing the making.
OK, I'll go along with that.
But let me ask you a question, if you as a savior, would you be willing to loose your soul to gain the world?
Blessings, AJ
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I'm not sure what you're getting at. If a god taught me, told me what I must do, and sent me to do it unconditionally then I suspect I'd do as that god commanded me to do. I have no idea what you mean by "soul" but would I be willing to give up my life...?....well, I might say I would...but when the time came I might be begging, pleading and crying that I didn't want to.....Such was the case of the biblical Yeshua.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Actually it answers nothing. The questions and answers will always be cyclic. This debate will continue to go in circles long after we are both gone.
I've listen and watched all of the late Ahmed Deedat. While his debating skills were impressive he did nothing new compared to those that came before him or after him when debating this issue.
The biblical Yeshua was quite clear he wasn't "God"
John 20:17
.....I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
This is a very clear and basic statement.
There is a verse in the bible which states: Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
There are two applications to that verse: 1. If we should desire the worlds goods over Gods, means loosing our soul to God and giving it to the world.
2. This application belongs to Christ.
For here Jesus is giving up His life and His soul for the world, in that by Him the world would be saved while He would make the ultimate sacrifice of losing His soul for eternity rather than us.
So, my question to you was that because you said: quote "even though your own scripture says "God" gives or gave the ability to others to be saviors." as in you or I being saviors, would you be willing to loose your life and soul for eternity for the rest of the world.
Even, if you could, still you couldn't accomplish it because unless you are God, being a man born after Adam and also born of God, you could not make a dent even to your own sins.
Jesus was born after Adam, meaning of the flesh, and of God, meaning having the spirit of God fully.
Jesus had, like an any of us can, is have a power of attorney to perform for a client.
Jesus had, by birth the power of attorney to perform in behalf of God, as God, the full measure of the power and might of God.
So if, one wanted to see God, all's one has to do is to look at Jesus.
For the bible states: Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
It does state that we may save some from the gates of hell, meaning that by our words and actions, we may help someone from completely destroying their lives by helping them and showing them what God can to for them as He has done for us.
Gates of hell, simply means from the life's gutter, when nothing in this world matters, when all hope is lost and life become unbearable.
Blessings, AJ
Yes, very basic and clear.
But without understanding, you do get the read you are stating.
Here is the understanding, Since God in His creation created the flesh, in the form of the flesh could any man see. Be it a spirit in the form of a man or a man in the flesh.
Jesus was God in the flesh for the purpose of annulling the agreement God had with death and hell.
Only as a man of the flesh could that be done, since it was man in the flesh that, that condition was first born.
So it would take the creators presence in the form of the flesh to execute the annulment that was unjustly given to mankind.
You have to understand it that way, for the whole message in the bible is just about that, otherwise, why even try?
Blessings, AJ
Bible says that God is not Man
The Bible says:
Numbers 23:19
The Bible says:
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man
Hosea 11:9
...For I am God, and not man...
Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible:
John 8:40
John 8:40
a man who has told you the truth
Acts 2:22
Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles
and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst,
just as you yourselves know.
and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst,
just as you yourselves know.
Acts 17:31
He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom
He has appointed
He has appointed
1
. Tim. 2:5
the man Christ Jesus.
God is not a man, but Jesus, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon
him, was a man, therefore, Jesus was not God.
him, was a man, therefore, Jesus was not God.
2
. The Bible Says that God Is Not a Son of Man
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man...nor a son of man
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man...nor a son of man
The Bible often calls Jesus
a son of man or the son of man.
Matthew 12:40
so will the son of man be
Matthew 16:27
For the son of man is going to come
Matthew 28
until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.
Mark 2:10
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority
John 5:27 because He is the son of man.
n the Hebrew Scriptures, the
son of man is also used many times speaking
of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6; 2:8;
3:1; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25).
of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6; 2:8;
3:1; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25).
Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son
of a man, then becoming a human being who was called
of a man, then becoming a human being who was called
the son of man,
he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion.
Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called son of man specifically
to distinguish them from God, who is not a son of man according to the
Bible.
he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion.
Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called son of man specifically
to distinguish them from God, who is not a son of man according to the
Bible.
3
. The Bible says that Jesus Denied He is God
Luke 18:19 Jesus spoke to a man who had called him good, asking him,
Luke 18:19 Jesus spoke to a man who had called him good, asking him,
Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Matthew 19:17 and he said to him,
Why are you asking me about what is
good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life,
keep the commandments.
good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Jesus did not teach people that he was God. If Jesus had been telling
people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead,
Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.
people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead,
Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.
4
. The Bible says that God is Greater than Jesus
John 14:28 My Father is greater than I.
John 14:28 My Father is greater than I.
John 10:29
My father is greater than all.
Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that
the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from
Jesus.
the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from
Jesus.
5
. Jesus Never Instructed His Disciples to Worship Himself or the Holy
Ghost, but God and God Only
Luke 11:2 When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.
Ghost, but God and God Only
Luke 11:2 When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.
John 16:23
In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of
the Father in my name
hn 4:23
“The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall
worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to
worship him.”
worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to
worship him.”
If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself. Since he
didn
didn
’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was
not God.
not God.
6
. The Bible Says that Jesus Recognized, Prayed, & Worshipped the Only
True God
Jesus prayed to God with the words:
John 17:3 “…that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ
whom you have sent.”
True God
Jesus prayed to God with the words:
John 17:3 “…that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ
whom you have sent.”
Jesus prayed to God all night:
Luke 6:12
Luke 6:12
“he continued all night in prayer to God.”
…because:
Matthew 20:28: Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to
serve.
How did Jesus pray to God?
Matthew 26:39
Matthew 20:28: Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to
serve.
How did Jesus pray to God?
Matthew 26:39
‘…he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My
Father…”
Father…”
Even Paul said:
Hebrews 5:7
Hebrews 5:7
“During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers
and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from
death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.”
and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from
death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.”
Who was Jesus praying to when he fell on his face with loud cries and
petitions? Was it himself? Was Jesus crying in tears to himself pleading
to be saved from death? No man, sane or insane, prays to himself! Surely
the answer must be a resounding
petitions? Was it himself? Was Jesus crying in tears to himself pleading
to be saved from death? No man, sane or insane, prays to himself! Surely
the answer must be a resounding
‘No.’ Jesus was praying to “the only true
God.” Jesus was the servant of the One Who sent him. Can there be a
God.” Jesus was the servant of the One Who sent him. Can there be a
clearer proof that Jesus was not God.
5
The Quran confirms that Jesus called for the worship of the Only True
God:
God:
“
Truly, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (alone). This is
the straight path.” (Quran 3:51)
2fine
You make an excellent argument with all the necessary scriptures to back them up.
What one needs to realize is this, since God created mankind in the flesh, and the flesh became lost in the process, then it only means that God has to save mankind as a man.
Something else that in not being taken into consideration is the fact that mankind could not create itself into a lost condition save the one who created them.
What that does then is place mankind in a position of weakness, a lesser type of god, without any powers to rectify something that mankind had absolutely nothing to do with its lost condition.
But God alone! I want to stress the point of "God alone".
God is the creator of that which was lost in the creation process, and is also the savior of His own lost creation.
Mankind has absolutely nothing to do with it's own salvation.
You probably asking yourself what I must be talking about.
In one verse, in the Book of Romans 8:20 it details very simply what I have just stated above.
Here's the verse:Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity,(Lost) not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (Life)
OK, let's consider the context of the bible stories to see ifit does not reflect what has happened in the verse above.
In all the stories we can see 4 distinct points in human life.
1. Introduction = introduced into this world unwillingly. (Subjected to)
2. The fall = Because we were subjected to a world of vanity as lesser gods, we are fallen.
3. Judgment = Because we are lesser gods, subjected to a world of vanity, as gods, we become separated from God, or in other words, cast out as Adam and Eve were.
4. Punishment =due to the separation, the creation became lost, separated thus death of both the physical and the spirit in respect to God.
In all the stories in the bible you will see the self same effect upon every human regardless of who they are and or what they believe.
The question that mankind can not understand is why are we lost in the first place?
Many attribute it to the disobedience of Adam and Eve as the original sin upon all of humanity.
When in fact, every child born is plagued by the same four points I mentioned above which makes for the lost condition.
Since mankind is the one created, mankind cannot of itself save itself from the lost creative process save God alone.
Which then brings us back to Jesus as a second type of Adam, not tainted by the world, not subjected into the world but of free will.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
God then formed a body just for Jesus:Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
This body that was prepared was as the ram furnished Abraham in place of Issac, instead, to be the body for the sacrifice. (Jesus)
So you have God working personally in His creative process recreating what became lost to what is now life, via the body of Jesus.
No other human being in all of humanity could without God full athority create life as Jesus did.
Blessings, AJ
You make an excellent argument with all the necessary scriptures to back them up.
What one needs to realize is this, since God created mankind in the flesh, and the flesh became lost in the process, then it only means that God has to save mankind as a man.
Something else that in not being taken into consideration is the fact that mankind could not create itself into a lost condition save the one who created them.
What that does then is place mankind in a position of weakness, a lesser type of god, without any powers to rectify something that mankind had absolutely nothing to do with its lost condition.
But God alone! I want to stress the point of "God alone".
God is the creator of that which was lost in the creation process, and is also the savior of His own lost creation.
Mankind has absolutely nothing to do with it's own salvation.
You probably asking yourself what I must be talking about.
In one verse, in the Book of Romans 8:20 it details very simply what I have just stated above.
Here's the verse:Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity,(Lost) not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (Life)
OK, let's consider the context of the bible stories to see ifit does not reflect what has happened in the verse above.
In all the stories we can see 4 distinct points in human life.
1. Introduction = introduced into this world unwillingly. (Subjected to)
2. The fall = Because we were subjected to a world of vanity as lesser gods, we are fallen.
3. Judgment = Because we are lesser gods, subjected to a world of vanity, as gods, we become separated from God, or in other words, cast out as Adam and Eve were.
4. Punishment =due to the separation, the creation became lost, separated thus death of both the physical and the spirit in respect to God.
In all the stories in the bible you will see the self same effect upon every human regardless of who they are and or what they believe.
The question that mankind can not understand is why are we lost in the first place?
Many attribute it to the disobedience of Adam and Eve as the original sin upon all of humanity.
When in fact, every child born is plagued by the same four points I mentioned above which makes for the lost condition.
Since mankind is the one created, mankind cannot of itself save itself from the lost creative process save God alone.
Which then brings us back to Jesus as a second type of Adam, not tainted by the world, not subjected into the world but of free will.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
God then formed a body just for Jesus:Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
This body that was prepared was as the ram furnished Abraham in place of Issac, instead, to be the body for the sacrifice. (Jesus)
So you have God working personally in His creative process recreating what became lost to what is now life, via the body of Jesus.
No other human being in all of humanity could without God full athority create life as Jesus did.
Blessings, AJ
Muffled
Jesus in me
You keep repeating this as thoogh you had proven it but you have not.
No, you should know me better than that. I am saying that the concept of a spirit within a body was there in Genesis. That there is a spirit in Jesus does not say whether that spirit is God or an image of Him.
You would be correct if God were not all powerful and unable to enter a body as His creation can.
Muffled
Jesus in me
However the fact remains that only God can forgive sins. Sin is a personal issue between God and man. Because Jesus is God in the flesh He doesn't speak in the third person "He forgives you" but in the first person "I forgive you." allthough it might not be so readily apparent because of His use of the passive. However the fact that the pharisees recognized it as a first person statement means that we should also. Then Jesus says that He has the authority to forgive sins and He doesn't say it was given.
The fact that Jesus speaks with the voice of authority trumps the argument that Jesus must refer to the Father's authority. The problem for Jesus then is the same problem He is having with you. People would not believe He was God so He had to express that His authority came from God. It is like saying something and people don't believe you, so you have to swear an oath that you are speaking the truth.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is referred to theologically as the Hypostatic Union.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And your standards of acceptance is very high and demanding. Remember, this is your thread....where you spouted out verse after verse as if all chiming in were to accept that as proof. You asked the question, by the very thread title itself, and proceeded to answer it by using the bible. This is why I've constantly said that using the bile to prove the bible is futile. Now, I use the very same bible to show evidence that what you assert is incorrect. All that you and I can do is present the evidence and list our reasoning. Neither of us can "Prove" he was or wasn't "God".
Your reasoning and interpretation of your scripture leads you to believe he was. My reasoning and your scriptures very clear statements by others as well as the biblical Yeshua himself leads me to surmise he never taught others her was, they never thought that he was, and he explicitly said he wasn't. You ask for proof where none is available from either of us. You require it from me but you asked the original question and gave the original answers but how can YOU "prove" it?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
One would think that this clear declaration would be enough but as we see you proceed to interject your own reasoning thus going beyond what is said. Not only was it said here by the biblical Yeshua he said elsewhere sticking to the same mantra that he wasn't "God" in the flesh.
The concept of "Hell" was not one that resided with the Jews of the day and to my knowledge does not reside with Jews of this day and time either. The concept of "hell" seems to have been popularized by Christians. Additionally, the Old Testament shows "God" saving his creation from damnation without having to come in the flesh. The people of the time were under their own rule and freedoms before being subservient to the Romans and were much more disobedient to "God's Laws"...way before the biblical Yeshua was sent by his god.
Again, go back and read your Old Testament. Your god was doing well not coming in the flesh when he was saving and forgiving.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
This is completely inaccurate because Isaiah 6:8 has absolutely nothing to do with the Biblical Yeshua nor the biblical Adam for that matter.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Forcing your interpretation means nothing here. The fact that he went as far as to inform others he spoke for his god and that his god gave him a task to complete as well as informing them that his power/ability to do what he did was "given" means that the people should not interpret him to be there one true god. As he healed he says this "power was given" to me and others said praise be to "God" for giving you such a power. No one took his ability to mean he himself was "God". If the book of John has any validity then the biblical Yeshua made it quite clear that there was a distinction between him and the one true god.