Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

Like I said:

There were two separate words in Paul's day for firstborn and first created. Firstborn is proto with tikto which is what Paul used in Col. 1:15. First created is proto with ktizo which Paul did not use here.

I don't think there's a word called Protoktizo, neither do I think the concept would be any different. Firstborn means Firstborn, even if metaphorical still applies "The choice of those born". However, The word "Tokos" doesn't even mean born. It means "The first time" actually. Which implies that it was the "First-time thing made". Thus, there is no actually "Born" in this sense. Likewise, the 'Firstborn" among brothers is the "FIrst time", it doesn't matter whether he is born or created, the concept is the same.

Strong's takes some liberties here in the second sentence as it often does for its target audience, but it at least acknowledges the concept in the first sentence. The point is that it means "First among others". The whole "Pre-eminent thing" you can see that they are weaseling to give some weasel words to their target audience while trying to not steer too far from the idea. John 5:26 does not say he is self-existent.

[4416 (prōtótokos) refers to "the first among others (who follow)" – as with the preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life (Jn 5:26).

 

[Mark2020]

I take mine from the Scriptures as well, and it says that Wisdom was the First created being, just like in Colossians 1:15.

I think we've discussed this before.
Was God without Wisdom before creating it?

From the compete word study of NT:

The word prōtótokos is also used in relation to God's creation referring to Christ's supremacy over it. Jesus Christ cannot be both creator and creature. In Col 1:15 He is placed above His creation when He is called prōtótokos pásēs ktíseōs (pásēs, gen. fem. of pás [G3956], every; ktíseōs, gen. of ktísis [G2937], creation or creature), "the firstborn of every creature," or better still, "the one preeminent over all creation" (a.t.). The next verse makes it adequately clear, "For by him were all things created," meaning that He Himself is not part of creation (cf. Joh 1:3). The meaning approximates that of the noun archḗ (G746), beginning, which means either objectively the first effect, the first created thing, or subjectively the first cause, the source of creation. In Rev 3:14 the noun archḗ in the phrase hē archḗ tḗs ktíseōs toú Theoú is intended to identify Jesus as the first cause or source of creation and not as the first object of creation. Jesus Christ is consequently the archḗ, the ruler over all.

 

[Shermana]

No, "Wisdom" was a personified being that G-d created to be the Utmost Servant.

A perfect example of blatant dishonesty by Trintiarian "scholars" with this word study.

When it says "He himself is not part of Creation" that is just a flat out biased and incorrect translation. While it's POSSIBLE to read it that way, to say its the only way to read it is dishonest. Which most of these "Word studies" by Trinitarians are. The intended meaning behind Firstborn is nothing less than "First among", they have no basis for their claim otherwise except for doctrinal bias.

And the thing of "Arche" for Rev 3:14 implies that he was the BEGINNING of the "Creation of G-d". Whether or not the word "Arche" means "beginning" or "leader", it says among the "Creation of G-d", meaning he was part of the Creation. No matter how you spin it. They do accurately get that Yashua was the "Source" of all Creation, but not in its proper sense.

 

[Mark2020]

No, "Wisdom" was a personified being that G-d created to be the Utmost Servant.

You're free to believe that. I don't care.

Your "Complete word study" is nice, but its hardly objective or hits the objections I made. It's also flat out wrong and the complete opposite of what it actually means. Gotta love those biased Trinitarian "word studies". It seems most of them try to deliberately run from Philo.

That's how to reply when you have nothing useful to say.

And the thing of "Arche" for Rev 3:14 implies that he was the BEGINNING of the "Creation of G-d". Whether or not the word "Arche" means "beginning" or "leader", it says among the "Creation of G-d", meaning he was part of the Creation. No matter how you spin it.

Was this too hard to see:
"as the first cause or source of creation and not as the first object of creation"

 

[Shermana]

You're free to believe that. I don't care.

Yes, but this is a debate forum. And if the scripture clearly says that Wisdom was created as a being, that's not just my belief. You're welcome to your OPINION on scripture, just as your Word Study author had his own OPINION that "Arche" and "Prototokos" do not imply being a part of Creation. Do you understand that they are not telling the truth and telling doctrinal lies for the sake of their market? Their ideas are purely doctrinally motivated without regard to the meaning OR context.

That's how to reply when you have nothing useful to say.

Read my edit. I showed how exactly your word study basically puts doctrine over objectivity. There is no reason to believe that "Prototokos" means not a part of Creation, whatsoever, and there is plenty of reason to believe that it means "Among". As I said, your word translation is biased and incorrect and appealing to Trinitarian markets over Objectivity. Can you find an objective Word study that states this?

Was this too hard to see:
"as the first cause or source of creation and not as the first object of creation"

As I pointed out, the idea that it was not an object of Creation is purely speculative, and doctrinally biased, and flies in the face of what it actually says. The idea that "Arche" does not mean "A part of" is 100% doctrinal, not grammatical. This definition of "Arche" is again, doctrinal and attempting to cover up the other ways its used. The word "Arche" CAN possibly mean "Ruler who is not among creation", but this definition is not defacto and is...doctrinally biased. You are welcome to believe what you THINK Arche means, but this is not its exact definition and is an opinion on how to apply it.

 

[javajo]

I don't think there's a word called Protoktizo, neither do I think the concept would be any different. Firstborn means Firstborn, even if metaphorical still applies "The choice of those born". However, The word "Tokos" doesn't even mean born. It means "The first time" actually. Which implies that it was the "First-time thing made". Thus, there is no actually "Born" in this sense. Likewise, the 'Firstborn" among brothers is the "FIrst time", it doesn't matter whether he is born or created, the concept is the same.



Strong's takes some liberties here in the second sentence as it often does for its target audience, but it at least acknowledges the concept in the first sentence. The point is that it means "First among others". The whole "Pre-eminent thing" you can see that they are weaseling to give some weasel words to their target audience while trying to not steer too far from the idea. John 5:26 does not say he is self-existent.

Tokos: Tikto - Greek Lexicon

1. to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
   1. of a woman giving birth
   2. of the earth bringing forth its fruits
   3. metaph. to bear, bring forth

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]KJV (19) - be born, 3; be delivered, 5; be in travail, 1; bear, 1; bring forth, 9; [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]NAS (19) - bear, 4; birth, 1; born, 2; brings forth, 1; gave birth, 5; give birth, 4; gives birth, 1; labor, 1; [/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

Tokos: Tikto - Greek Lexicon

1. to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
   1. of a woman giving birth
   2. of the earth bringing forth its fruits
   3. metaph. to bear, bring forth

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]KJV (19) - be born, 3; be delivered, 5; be in travail, 1; bear, 1; bring forth, 9; [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]NAS (19) - bear, 4; birth, 1; born, 2; brings forth, 1; gave birth, 5; give birth, 4; gives birth, 1; labor, 1; [/FONT]

It means "To bring forth", thus "Prototokos" is the "First time being brought forth". It actually originally means "To exact money".

Strong's Greek: 5110. ????? (tokos) -- a bringing forth, birth, fig. interest, usury


Original Word: τόκος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: tokos
Phonetic Spelling: (tok'-os)
Short Definition: interest, usury
Definition: interest, usury.

Word Origin
from tiktó
Definition
a bringing forth, birth, fig. interest, usury
NASB Word Usage
interest (2).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation
All rights reserved Lockman.org​

usury.
From the base of tikto; interest on money loaned (as a produce) -- usury.
see GREEK tikto

 

[Mark2020]

Yes, but this is a debate forum. And if the scripture clearly says that Wisdom was created as a being, that's not just my belief. You're welcome to your OPINION on scripture, just as your Word Study author had his own OPINION that "Arche" and "Prototokos" do not imply being a part of Creation. Do you understand that they are not telling the truth and telling doctrinal lies for the sake of their market? Their ideas are purely doctrinally motivated without regard to the meaning OR context.


Read my edit. I showed how exactly your word study basically puts doctrine over objectivity. There is no reason to believe that "Prototokos" means not a part of Creation, whatsoever, and there is plenty of reason to believe that it means "Among". As I said, your word translation is biased and incorrect and appealing to Trinitarian markets over Objectivity. Can you find an objective Word study that states this?

As I pointed out, the idea that it was not an object of Creation is purely speculative, and doctrinally biased, and flies in the face of what it actually says. The idea that "Arche" does not mean "A part of" is 100% doctrinal, not grammatical. This definition of "Arche" is again, doctrinal and attempting to cover up the other ways its used. The word "Arche" CAN possibly mean "Ruler who is not among creation", but this definition is not defacto and is...doctrinally biased. You are welcome to believe what you THINK Arche means, but this is not its exact definition and is an opinion on how to apply it.

You can keep twisting meanings and words as you want. But until you show some reference supporting your view and proving the other view wrong, your words are useless.

In the meanwhile, I'll give some more references:

Word Pictures in the New Testament:

The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (πασης κτισεως [pāsēs ktiseōs], by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of πρωτος [prōtos] that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col. 1:18; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 1:6; 12:23; Rev. 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men). Like εἰκων [eikōn] we find πρωτοτοκος [prōtotokos] in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Λογος [Logos] teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as εἰκων [eikōn] (Image) and to the universe as πρωτοτοκος [prōtotokos] (First-born).

A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.):

② pert. to having special status associated with a firstborn

A Concise Greek-English dictionary of the New Testament:

πρωτότοκος , ον first-born, first; first-born Son (of Christ); π. πάσης κτίσεως existing before all creation or superior to all creation (Col 1:15)

Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament.

πρωτότοκος, ον firstborn, existing before; (1) literally, as the oldest son in a family (LU 2.7; HE 11.28); (2) figuratively and substantivally; (a) singular ὁ π. used of Jesus Christ, as the unique preexistent Son of the heavenly Father (HE 1.6); as the one existing before all creation (CO 1.15); as the first to be resurrected from the dead (CO 1.18); as the head of a spiritual family of "many siblings" (RO 8.29); (b) plural οἱ πρωτότοκοι, of redeemed mankind as God’s honored family (HE 12.23)

Vine's Expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words :

PRŌTOTOKOS (πρωτότοκος , (4416)), firstborn (from prōtos, first, and tiktō, to beget), is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, Luke 2:7; further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and pre–eminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the first to be born. It is used occasionally of superiority of position in the O.T.; see Ex. 4:22; Deut. 21:16, 17, the prohibition being against the evil of assigning the privileged position of the firstborn to one born subsequently to the first child.
The five passages in the N.T. relating to Christ may be set forth chronologically thus: (a) Col. 1:15, where His eternal relationship with the Father is in view, and the clause means both that He was the Firstborn before all creation and that He Himself produced creation (the genitive case being objective, as ver. 16 makes clear); (b) Col. 1:18 and Rev. 1:5, in reference to His resurrection; (c) Rom. 8:29, His position in relationship to the Church; (d) Heb. 1:6, R.V., His Second Advent (the R.V. “when He again bringeth in,” puts “again” in the right place, the contrast to His First Advent, at His Birth, being implied); cp. Psa. 89:27. The word is used in the plural, in Heb. 11:28, of the firstborn sons in the families of the Egyptians, and in 12:23, of the members of the Church.
Note: With (a) cp. John 1:30, “He was before me,” lit., ‘He was first (prōtos) of me,’ i.e., ‘in regard to me,’ expressing all that is involved in His pre–existence and priority.

 

[Shermana]

I'm not twisting anything, none of those are objective translations and are all repeating the same line, you are welcome to believe they are. Get a NON CHRISTIAN translation of Prototokos and Arche as what they are saying and then you'll have a non-biased translation of those words. Telling me that my words are useless while repeating the same line that NON OBJECTIVE translations use is not a substitute for actually proving the case. As you can see, all of those deliberately twist it themselves to suit the common Theology of the subject.

Let the reader decide if Arche and Prototokos exclusively mean "Not a part of but the beginning of". I will see if I can find some non-Trinitarian translations. Either way, I'm confident the objective reader will be able to see that there is in fact a common deliberate twisting of Colossians 1:15 and Rev 3:14 to get it to say what they want outside of the Anatolian "Logos Theology" it originated from. I am sure the reader can see how those are putting Doctrine over Grammar. It's a common concept among Trinitarians so its no surprise you'll find several Christian word studies that try to support this logic. I've seen it many many times. Can you find a NON Trinitarian translation of the words as such? If not, thanks for playing. Do you not see yourself how the definitions are clearly rooted in Doctrinal bias over the meaning of the word?

Even if Prototokos means "Pre-eminence" it still means "First among" no matter what. And the idea that it means "pre-eminence" comes from HEBREW use of the word "Firstborn". Either way, if the "Firstborn" is the "Pre-eminent", that means that its the "Pre-eminent" of those that it is among. Those Trinitarian translations are going out of their way to cover up this little fact by twisting it into something else. Likewise, Arche does not necessarily mean "The initial and primary source of", that is an OPINION of what it means, based on Doctrine.

 

[Mark2020]

I'm not twisting anything, none of those are objective translations and are all repeating the same line, you are welcome to believe they are. Get a NON CHRISTIAN translation of Prototokos and Arche as what they are saying and then you'll have a non-biased translation of those words. Telling me that my words are useless while repeating the same line that NON OBJECTIVE translations use is not a substitute for actually proving the case. As you can see, all of those deliberately twist it themselves to suit the common Theology of the subject.

Let the reader decide if Arche and Prototokos exclusively mean "Not a part of but the beginning of". I will see if I can find some non-Trinitarian translations. Either way, I'm confident the objective reader will be able to see that there is in fact a common deliberate twisting of Colossians 1:15 and Rev 3:14 to get it to say what they want outside of the Anatolian "Logos Theology" it originated from.

Even if Prototokos means "Pre-eminence" it still means "First among" no matter what. And the idea that it means "pre-eminence" comes from HEBREW use of the word "Firstborn".

lol
You haven't even read them!!! Try reading them well.
Again that's how you reply when you have no useful words to say.

 

[Shermana]

lol
You haven't even read them!!! Try reading them well.
Again that's how you reply when you have no useful words to say.

Why don't you try actually disproving what I said. Am I wrong when I say that you can't possibly find a non-Trinitarian word study that translates Prototokos and Arche as they are saying?

Telling me that I have no useful words is to say is not a substitute for disproving my claims.

Two of what you posted I don't mind. They are devoid of the doctrinal bias to a degree.

A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.):
Quote:
② pert. to having special status associated with a firstborn
A Concise Greek-English dictionary of the New Testament:
Quote:
πρωτότοκος , ον first-born, first; first-born Son (of Christ); π. πάσης κτίσεως existing before all creation or superior to all creation (Col 1:15)

 

[javajo]

Anyway...

Genesis 1:1 says God created the heaven and the earth.
John 1:1-3 says Jesus (the Word) made everything.
Colossians 1:16 says Jesus made all things.

Therefore, Jesus, who is God, made all things.

 

[Mark2020]

Why don't you try actually disproving what I said. Am I wrong when I say that you can't possibly find a non-Trinitarian word study that translates Prototokos and Arche as they are saying?

I've already proved my point.
So let me recall:
interpolations, miswording, mistranslations, trinitarian translations. Yes, everything that opposes your view is wrong.
How clever!

Again I'm not interested in playing silly word games with you.
Until you show something useful, your posts will be totally ignored.

 

[Shermana]

Anyway...

Genesis 1:1 says God created the heaven and the earth.
John 1:1-3 says Jesus (the Word) made everything.
Colossians 1:16 says Jesus made all things.

Therefore, Jesus, who is God, made all things.

Colossians 1:16 basically is saying what 1 Corinthians 8:6 says to begin with, they are separate beings, the Father who is the primary Creator, and the "Lord" (not LORD) who is designated as "Lord of Creation" by the "Most High", of which all things were made THROUGH. Key word : THROUGH. It is very important to know the difference between "of whom are all things" and "THROUGH whom are all things".

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

If you completely discount the Anatolian Logos Theology from an understanding of what the meaning of these verses are, things like John 1:18 become really difficult. "Only begotten god"? If Jesus is a "begotten god" that makes him a god.

 

[Mark2020]

Anyway...

Genesis 1:1 says God created the heaven and the earth.
John 1:1-3 says Jesus (the Word) made everything.
Colossians 1:16 says Jesus made all things.

Therefore, Jesus, who is God, made all things.

Again, so simple.
And let me remind you that Jesus Christ is in the center of the Throne.

 

[Shermana]

I've already proved my point.
So let me recall:
interpolations, miswording, mistranslations, trinitarian translations. Yes, everything that opposes your view is wrong.
How clever!

Again I'm not interested in playing silly word games with you.
Until you show something useful, your posts will be totally ignored.

The point you proved is that you can't find a single non-Christian Greek site to back your claim that Prototokos and Arche fit those definitions, and the Short Greek-English definition you used basically says what I'm saying.

"Silly word games" is the very basis of Trinitarian arguments (and Antinomian). If you can't back your argument, calling it a Silly word game will not substitute proving your claim objectively.

Ignore me all you want, your definition of the word relies on doctrinal bias as opposed to objective Greek grammar. If that's the case, you can get the text to say all kinds of things. It's a sad fact that the mainstream Protestant movement intentionally distorts the text, but as I proved with your two simple Greek-English translations, the definitions themselves are not necessarily as you are claiming. The word "Prototokos, regardless, means "First among", and if "Pre-eminent", it will be "Pre-eminent among"

 

[Shermana]

Again, so simple.
And let me remind you that Jesus Christ is in the center of the Throne.

Can you find a single instance where the word is used for "Center of" as opposed to "Among"? Find those 6 places where it says "Center" and show its context. The KJV is not the best, but in some cases like this it is.

Strong's Greek: 3319. ????? (mesos) -- middle, in the midst

among (3), among* (5), before* (3), between (1), between* (3), center (6), forward* (3), midday* (1), middle (6), midnight* (2), midst (19), two (1), way (2), within* (1).

 

[Mark2020]

The point you proved is ...

I've asked to disprove what I've already showed through references. Show me it can't mean what I showed you in more than 5 references.

You're the one required to prove your point not me!

 

[Shermana]

I've asked to disprove what I've already showed through references. Show me it can't mean what I showed you in more than 5 references.

You're the one required to prove your point not me!

Did you not read what I said? Your Greek-English translation is simple and matches mine, the Christian translations you use are purely doctrinally based extending on the initial definition.

πρωτότοκος , ον first-born, first; first-born Son (of Christ); π. πάσης κτίσεως existing before all creation or superior to all creation (Col 1:15)

Did you read what I said about 1 Cor 8:6?

 

[Mark2020]

Can you find a single instance where the word is used for "Center of" as opposed to "Among"? Find those 6 places where it says "Center" and show its context. The KJV is not the best, but in some cases like this it is.

Strong's Greek: 3319. ????? (mesos) -- middle, in the midst

among (3), among* (5), before* (3), between (1), between* (3), center (6), forward* (3), midday* (1), middle (6), midnight* (2), midst (19), two (1), way (2), within* (1).

I've given the meaning the meaning from english and greek dictionaries.
You can keep playing your "silly word games" with yourself.

Again useless posts will be totally ignored.