Sorry to say, but if you feel his attempt is pathetic, what you gave is no less pathetic.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Sorry to say, but if you feel his attempt is pathetic, what you gave is no less pathetic.
Does anyone here have any idea where the Holy Ghost (the third part of god) is in the vision portrayed in Revelation?
"part of god" that's a very poor choice of words. I'd say God's Spirit.
Anyway, a search for the word 'Spirit', should answer your question.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And in none of this do we find any indication he is in a human state. Furthermore the biblical Yeshua is clear at Rev. 3:12 that he has a god.....
Which is why I gave you Rev 3:12 as well as chapter 4 and 5.
I chose nothing. These are your scriptures and what they reveal is the exact opposite to what you believe. You keep harping on chapter 7 all the while ignoring that there are multiple thrones mentioned.
At the point when "God" is seated upon the throne he receives prays from his creation. It is then asked...who is worthy of opening the seals of the scroll. No one was and John begins the cry. Then John is told to not worry. Then the Lamb ("steps" forward) from the "midst" of the elders that were seated upon their thrones to take the scroll from the hand of "God" who was already seated upon his own throne while the "Lamb" stood.
Chapter 7 only makes sense in context with the earlier chapters. You're the one picking what you want. If you truly studied chapter 7 you'd see that it separates "God" and the "Lamb". Nowhere can we discern the Lamb as being seated. It's clear God" is seated upon the throne and the Lamb is (by or between) ("in the midst") of the throne. Chapter 7 makes perfect sense and is in line perfectly with chapters 4 and 5.
And your verse is poorly translated. The word ( ἀνά ) does not mean ("center") the Greek word (ἀνά
means (among, between or by). Other areas where that word is used is never translated as "center". Without having a basic familiarity of the Greek language you're bound to believe almost anything you read.Son of man refers to His human nature.
My quotes were clear. And I replied to that before. If you don't accept that, it's your problem. I don't care.
Again words are clear. There is only one throne in chapter 7. It says "The Throne", obviously referring to the one previously mentioned in the chapter. And the Lamb is at its center.
And your verse is poorly translated. The word ( ἀνά ) does not mean ("center") the Greek word (ἀνά
How funny accusing me of not having "basic familiarity of the Greek language " and mentioning "poor translation"
Did you even notice that "center" is "μεσον" not ( ἀνά )
( ἀνά ) is a preposition.
Shermana
Heretic
There are 24 thrones in Chapter 4 and 11, and multiple thrones in Chapter 20.
It appears that "Center of the Throne" may be a deliberate modern miswording to paint Jesus in the place of G-d like how they capitalize "I am". Makes a giant difference when you use the correct translation of "in the midst". There are a few places where the KJV is one of the only ones that gets it right, and this is one of them.
I'd even go so far that all of these modern translations that use "Center of the Throne" are being downright dishonest.
It appears that "Center of the Throne" may be a deliberate modern miswording to paint Jesus in the place of G-d like how they capitalize "I am". Makes a giant difference when you use the correct translation of "in the midst". There are a few places where the KJV is one of the only ones that gets it right, and this is one of them.
ἀνὰana303PREPmidst
I'd even go so far that all of these modern translations that use "Center of the Throne" are being downright dishonest.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
By understanding the following verses correctly, one can see that according to the Bible, Jesus is God who created everything:
John 1 says:
In the beginning was the Word,(Jesus) and the Word was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In Genesis 1:1 it says:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Colossians 1:16-17 says:
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
John 1 says:
In the beginning was the Word,(Jesus) and the Word was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In Genesis 1:1 it says:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Colossians 1:16-17 says:
For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Shermana
Heretic
Colossians 1:15 Firstborn Among Creation. And the word "Prototokos" is used specifically for "Begotten" in every other time its used. The intended audience of these epistles likely clearly understood the connection between "Firstborn among Creation" and the "Creator of all things" since this was standard Anatolian Jewish theology of the day.
Once again, most Anatolian Jews were well familiar with Philo's "Logos" Theology which says that the Highest Archangel was the Instrument and Prototype of which all Creation was made. The foreman of the Angels. Some of the early Midrash says the Angels were created on the Second day. Proverbs clearly says that Wisdom was the "First created thing" and this is exactly what the Logos Theology says, that Wisdom was the first personified created being and the instrument of which all things were made. If anything, the later "Gnostic" concept of the Demiurge may have been based on this, but upside-down.
By understanding the verses correctly, we see that Yashua was the Incarnation of the Highest angel.
And John 1:1c, read correctly, will read
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14780372/Non-trinitarian-Translations-of-John-11
Once again, most Anatolian Jews were well familiar with Philo's "Logos" Theology which says that the Highest Archangel was the Instrument and Prototype of which all Creation was made. The foreman of the Angels. Some of the early Midrash says the Angels were created on the Second day. Proverbs clearly says that Wisdom was the "First created thing" and this is exactly what the Logos Theology says, that Wisdom was the first personified created being and the instrument of which all things were made. If anything, the later "Gnostic" concept of the Demiurge may have been based on this, but upside-down.
By understanding the verses correctly, we see that Yashua was the Incarnation of the Highest angel.
And John 1:1c, read correctly, will read
, this is proven by the Syriac Pe****ta useing "Eloah" for 1:1c and "Elohim" for 1:1b.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14780372/Non-trinitarian-Translations-of-John-11
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This is the last time I am going to repeat this:
Chapter 7 speaks of ONLY ONE THRONE
With the slightest knowledge of any language, I believe, when "THE THRONE" is mentioned afterwards in the chapter, it refers to this ONLY THRONE.
ανα μεσον means in the center or in the midst.
I've already mentioned the Greek meaning before.
Now, calling it deliberate miswording, mistranslation, interpolations, or whatever of your words means nothing.
You're free to make up whatever pleases you and suits your doctrine and believe it.
The words are there and clear for all to see. I don't care whether you accept that or not.
Shermana
Heretic
Yes, THE Throne is different than the other thrones, but that doesn't change the part about "Center of" or "midst". If Jesus is in the "Midst", that changes the context too even if there's only one throne.
Telling me that my words mean nothing does absolutely nothing to actually discredit what I said about the deliberate mistranslating of "Midst" as "center of". One means "nearby" the other doesn't. Telling me that this is making up my own doctrine would be accurate if I was the first person to state this fact.
If it means "In the center of", please show another use in the text where it has the same meaning where it would imply "in the center of" as opposed to "nearby". Otherwise, kindly admit that the word "Center of" is a sub-translation of "In the midst of/nearby".
http://concordance.biblos.com/ana.htm Here you go, prove your case that it means "Center of" in the sense of "On" as opposed to "Near" or "Among". Like "I was in the midst of the crowd" or "I was in the midst of a rock star".
The words are clear for you to see, whether you particularly accept it or not is not my concern. The issue is whether Jesus was "In the center of" or "In the midst of". If you think my words mean nothing, why don't you disprove the Strong's entry I used instead of telling me that I'm making it up. That would be the honorable way to try to disprove it.
Telling me that my words mean nothing does absolutely nothing to actually discredit what I said about the deliberate mistranslating of "Midst" as "center of". One means "nearby" the other doesn't. Telling me that this is making up my own doctrine would be accurate if I was the first person to state this fact.
If it means "In the center of", please show another use in the text where it has the same meaning where it would imply "in the center of" as opposed to "nearby". Otherwise, kindly admit that the word "Center of" is a sub-translation of "In the midst of/nearby".
http://concordance.biblos.com/ana.htm Here you go, prove your case that it means "Center of" in the sense of "On" as opposed to "Near" or "Among". Like "I was in the midst of the crowd" or "I was in the midst of a rock star".
The words are clear for you to see, whether you particularly accept it or not is not my concern. The issue is whether Jesus was "In the center of" or "In the midst of". If you think my words mean nothing, why don't you disprove the Strong's entry I used instead of telling me that I'm making it up. That would be the honorable way to try to disprove it.
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Easy and simple enough, yet you'll see unbelievable twisting of words to try to deny that.
You can take your belief from whoever you want.
I take mine from the bible.
Shermana
Heretic
I take mine from the Scriptures as well, and it says that Wisdom was the First created being, just like in Colossians 1:15.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Jesus, the Word, became flesh (John 1:1,14), he was begotten not made.
There were two separate words in Paul's day for firstborn and first created. Firstborn is proto with tikto which is what Paul used in Col. 1:15. First created is proto with ktizo which Paul did not use here.
Also, the word firstborn means the first born in a family like in Luke 2:7. But it also means pre-eminence. Like when God said he'd make David his firstborn in Psalm 89:20,27:
20 “I have found David My servant;
With My holy oil I have anointed him,
27 “I also shall make him My firstborn,
The highest of the kings of the earth
This was giving him pre-eminence. Note that he was the last born in his family.
It is also transferable, like when Joseph, whose firstborn was Manaseh, (Gen. 41:51-52), called Ephraim his firstborn (Jer. 31:9)
[See: Col. 1:15, "firstborn of all creation" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry]
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Shermana
Heretic
I've seen the "pre-eminence" argument many times, regardless, "Firstborn" implies pre-eminence in the sense of an "heir" or "Son" no matter what. If David was "Firstborn" to G-d, he was still a separate being. "Firstborn among Creation" means "The pre-eminent created being among creation".
However, one cannot fully compare Hebrew to Greek words as well. The context of Colossians 1 altogether.
G-d cannot be the "Firstborn" in such a sense, even metaphorical, if he is the Primary Creator and the Initiator. It would have to be in the context of "Appointed", as in a being other than him made him the "Firstborn". Yashua as the instrument through which all things were made and nothing that was made was not made fits perfectly.
And "Wisdom" was the first-created being, regardless. That's just scriptural.
However, one cannot fully compare Hebrew to Greek words as well. The context of Colossians 1 altogether.
G-d cannot be the "Firstborn" in such a sense, even metaphorical, if he is the Primary Creator and the Initiator. It would have to be in the context of "Appointed", as in a being other than him made him the "Firstborn". Yashua as the instrument through which all things were made and nothing that was made was not made fits perfectly.
And "Wisdom" was the first-created being, regardless. That's just scriptural.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
Like I said:
There were two separate words in Paul's day for firstborn and first created. Firstborn is proto with tikto which is what Paul used in Col. 1:15. First created is proto with ktizo which Paul did not use here.
Do you have trouble in English too?
Midst - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1. the interior or central part or point : middle <in the midst of the forest>
The rest of meanings clearly don't apply here.
From Concise Oxford:
midst archaic or literary
■ preposition in the middle of.
■ noun the middle point or participle
'midst' is in the KJV, having the same meaming : middle or center.
From Vine's You can learn NT Greek:
ἀνά, up. This is frequently compounded with verbs. Separately with a noun it has a special meaning, as ἀνὰ μέσον, in the midst of (Mark 7:31; Rev. 7:17); ἀνὰ μέρος, by turn (1 Cor. 14:27); with numerals, ἀνὰ δύο, two by two (Luke 10:1); with measures, signifying apiece, ἀνὰ δηνάριον, a denarius, apiece (Matt. 20:9,10); ἀνὰ μετρητάς, measures apiece (John 2:6); in Rev. 21:21 ἀνὰ εἱ̂ς ἕκαστος is each one separately.