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Did Jesus say he was God???

Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
Exodus 20:5

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
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Yes, Anarthrous. You just hate that word. The Father is a jealous God.

It seems the use of upper case and lower case G is pretty arbitrary on the part of the translators.

And yes, it IS the point, how is it not the point in relation to Isaiah 9:6 and Jeremiah 32:18?
 
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Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
Mark2020 said:
Which makes your previous post useless...
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Ummm, how? It seems more and more like you have no clue what the article is for.

Let me help you out, "THE God" is "a god". The "god of the gods". He is THE god, who is still a god, the highest of all the gods. Do you understand what the article is for? Do you know what "god" even means?
 
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yourgraceisenough

yourgraceisenough

Active Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, Jesus said: I am the Son of God.
What other I am statements do you have in mind ?

Malachi [3vs1-6] speaks of a 'joint coming for judgment' on the part of both God and his messenger. [Messenger is Jesus]

Jesus is called Mighty God by Isaiah, but never called Almighty God.
['God' like 'Lord' is a title not a proper or personal name]

Rev [1v8] mentions the Almighty so verse 8 is in connection to Almighty God.
Rev [21vs6,7] the speaker is Jesus' Father [Matt 25v40; Hebrews 2vs10-12]
because Jesus' brothers are not Jesus' sons. Jesus 'brothers' are God's sons.
Rev [22v13] the Alpha and Omega are capitalized while 'first and last' are all in lower case letters. Verse 16 applies to Jesus. Verse 17 is credited to the spirit and the bride. The Alpha and Omega of verse 13 is in reference to Almighty God as at Rev 21 and Rev 1.
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still nothing about why Jesus or as you call him the arch angel michael being worshipped and included in salvation...

why was lucifer cast down or does God have double standards...:)
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
yourgraceisenough said:
unlike you the Jews knew what "I am " meant.....:facepalm::D
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What do you mean? They knew it exactly as I understand it, that Jesus was declaring himself to have existed before Abraham, which would imply being some kind of supernatural being, and in their eyes without understanding such, a form of blasphemy. Of course, it helps if you actually read the previous verses.

His actual charge in Chapter 10 was for "declaring G-d to be his Father", though this can be confusing due to most translations ignoring the fact that 10:33's Theon's is an Anarthrous, and is the only way to correctly understand what he means in 34-36.
 
yourgraceisenough

yourgraceisenough

Active Member
If Jesus was mighty God, not all mighty God how many Gods do the jehovas witnesses believe in...

plus wouldn't this mean that the arch angel michael pretending to be Jesus would be lying as he was an angel not a God at all.....???
 
yourgraceisenough

yourgraceisenough

Active Member
Shermana said:
What do you mean? They knew it exactly as I understand it, that Jesus was declaring himself to have existed before Abraham, which would imply being some kind of supernatural being, and in their eyes without understanding such, a form of blasphemy. Of course, it helps if you actually read the previous verses.

His actual charge in Chapter 10 was for "declaring G-d to be his Father", though this can be confusing due to most translations ignoring the fact that 10:33's Theon's is an Anarthrous, and is the only way to correctly understand what he means in 34-36.
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ha ha ha so every "I am " statement meant the same....

so you think they thought Jesus was some sort of supernatural being, who healed and forgave sins and spoke the bible with authority ...

and the alpha and omega meant nothing..

being included in worship meant nothing..

being included in salvation meant nothing...

I guess you can see where all the evidence is leading but your doctrine can't help...

so How many Gods do you believe in...lol:)
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
yourgraceisenough said:
ha ha ha so every "I am " statement meant the same....

so you think they thought Jesus was some sort of supernatural being, who healed and forgave sins and spoke the bible with authority ...

and the alpha and omega meant nothing..

being included in worship meant nothing..

being included in salvation meant nothing...

I guess you can see where all the evidence is leading but your doctrine can't help...

so How many Gods do you believe in...lol:)
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Well, since you completely ignore every single thing anyone says to you about the "Alpha and Omega" for starters, I don't see the point in repeating myself on the issues of who is speaking in Revelation, you can just go back and click the link I provided which I bet you didn't.

As for "Every I am " statement, do you think every time Jesus said "I am" he was meaning to say "I AM" or do you think its possible he was just saying "I am" in context to the discussion? Do you not know the difference between a name and a statement? Do you not understand that the name itself Eyheh means "I shall be"?

I believe there are many gods, but there is only one "god of the gods" who is the Father of them all, of whom no god after him (as in "like him") exists, or existed before him, for he is the "god of the gods". As for forgiving sins, it's obvious you skipped over the part where it says "was given to human beings". Along with many other things you skipped over.

However, when it comes to all the verses that proves that Jesus is not the same being as the Father, it's YOUR doctrine that cannot help.

As for being worshiped, I believe I mentioned this to you before, King David was worshiped. Angels are worshiped. The commandment is to "Worship G-d And serve Him only", the word "And" here does not mean only worship Him, although worshiping the Evil one (who is "The god of this age" 2 Cor 4:4) would obviously not be serving Him only.
 
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krsnaraja

krsnaraja

Active Member
Terrywoodenpic said:
While I agree with you about the Divinity of Jesus.

To use Bible quotes to prove it, requires the reader to accept the Truth of the Bible.

This belief does not always exist.

I am very selective in my reading of the Bible and get more from the colour and the teachings of the Bible than the exactness of the translation or the actual words.

Jesus teachings were so new in the world, as compared to the Jewish norm, that their teaching and truth shine through.

Contrary wise some of Paul's teachings are so much like the teachings of a Jew of his time, that although moral issues are handled well, they often show little of the new reality that Jesus brought us.

Jesus speaks directly to our heart and soul.
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What a long premise to have reached such a question if Jesus said he was God. Of course Jesus is God. There`s no doubt about it. In fact, the word doubt became famous because of Thomas. Unless Thomas touched Jesus wounds he`d never believe God Jesus has risen from the dead.

FAST FORWARD
---------------

Jesus is here. Now at this very moment. He`s Krsnaraja. Same dog different color. & He loves to say, " Jackpot!". & playing the micro slots is God`s pastime when he decides to unwind. He always wins but do ot collect until the balance is zero. Why? That`s precisely why he is called God.
 
yourgraceisenough

yourgraceisenough

Active Member
Shermana said:
Well, since you completely ignore every single thing anyone says to you about the "Alpha and Omega" for starters, I don't see the point in repeating myself on the issues of who is speaking in Revelation, you can just go back and click the link I provided which I bet you didn't.

As for "Every I am " statement, do you think every time Jesus said "I am" he was meaning to say "I AM" or do you think its possible he was just saying "I am" in context to the discussion? Do you not know the difference between a name and a statement? Do you not understand that the name itself Eyheh means "I shall be"?

I believe there are many gods, but there is only one "god of the gods" who is the Father of them all, of whom no god after him (as in "like him") exists, or existed before him, for he is the "god of the gods". As for forgiving sins, it's obvious you skipped over the part where it says "was given to human beings". Along with many other things you skipped over.

However, when it comes to all the verses that proves that Jesus is not the same being as the Father, it's YOUR doctrine that cannot help.

As for being worshiped, I believe I mentioned this to you before, King David was worshiped. Angels are worshiped. The commandment is to "Worship G-d And serve Him only", the word "And" here does not mean only worship Him, although worshiping the Evil one (who is "The god of this age" 2 Cor 4:4) would obviously not be serving Him only.
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ha ha ha still avoiding not out of sense but out of doctrinal necessity, it is obvious who Jesus was and is...

your scriptual proof for Jesus returning invisibly with no end time effects is....who knows....:)

your scriptual proof for thinking Jesus is the arch angel michael is....who knows...:)

your doctrines ask for unfounded leaps of faith while you deny the obvious on the very scripture your translation has changed....:)

what does the bible say about a prophet who says it will come to pass in the Gods name.....:)

look at the jehovas witnesses attempts at dating the end of the world....:)

check out rutherford and taze russel for untruths....:)

check out beth sarim for yet another mis quote and lie by your prophets...:)

the light keeps getting lighter does not cover saying God said then being wrong, that is making God out to be a liar...:)

very dangerous ground...
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
What am I avoiding exactly? Not like you're actually responding to anything we present or anything. Telling me that I'm denying the obvious is not a substitute for actually addressing the things I've said or the (non-JW) links I've posted. But this is typical Trinitarian debate tactic, so I'm pretty used to it by now. I still like how you said "I didn't avoid any questions" on the Works thread.

I love when Christians think the JWs were the first people to say such things, as if that has any relevance on the actual text or grammar. Do you think the NWT is the only Bible to say the same things I'm saying?

PS I'm not JW, it's not "My" scripture. You see where it says "Messianic Judaism"? That should give you a clue that I'm not JW. But I do find it interesting that Christians think you must be Watchtower if you agree with them. There's also things I agree with the Mormons about too, but I'm not Mormon. Anyways, don't bother responding to me unless you're actually going to address the things I've said.
 
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I

internationalist

Member
Shermana said:
What am I avoiding exactly? Not like you're actually responding to anything we present or anything. Telling me that I'm denying the obvious is not a substitute for actually addressing the things I've said or the (non-JW) links I've posted. But this is typical Trinitarian debate tactic, so I'm pretty used to it by now. I still like how you said "I didn't avoid any questions" on the Works thread.

I love when Christians think the JWs were the first people to say such things, as if that has any relevance on the actual text or grammar. Do you think the NWT is the only Bible to say the same things I'm saying?

PS I'm not JW, it's not "My" scripture. You see where it says "Messianic Judaism"? That should give you a clue that I'm not JW. But I do find it interesting that Christians think you must be Watchtower if you agree with them. There's also things I agree with the Mormons about too, but I'm not Mormon. Anyways, don't bother responding to me unless you're actually going to address the things I've said.
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As a follower of Messianic Judaism, are you not supposed to accept Jesus as God? Just wondering...
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
internationalist said:
As a follower of Messianic Judaism, are you not supposed to accept Jesus as God? Just wondering...
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Absolutely not, it would be heretical to accept such a post 2nd/3rd century gentile doctrine that has no place in the original belief. Doing so equates accepting Yashua as something other than Moshiach.

Nonetheless, most (Evangelical-funded) Messianic Jews today consider it a doctrinal tenet, which is why I put my belief in quotation marks, among other reasons.
 
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I

internationalist

Member
Shermana said:
Absolutely not, it would be heretical to accept such a post 2nd/3rd century gentile doctrine that has no place in the original belief. Doing so equates accepting Yashua as something other than Moshiach.
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Thanks for the clarification. So MJs basically follow Judaism with the addition of Jesus as the messiah. Would this be correct?
 
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