Shermana
Heretic
Yes, for the most part, including the teachings of Yashua and possibly things like the Communion (breaking bread and wine) and Baptism, and accepting that he served as the prophecied guilt offering and atonement in Isaiah 53.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Yes, for the most part, including the teachings of Yashua and possibly things like the Communion (breaking bread and wine) and Baptism, and accepting that he served as the prophecied guilt offering and atonement in Isaiah 53.
internationalist
Member
So MJs believe Jesus was sinless and yet not God. Do they believe that he died for the world or only for Israel?
Shermana
Heretic
As I said, most MJs (who are usually financially backed by Evangelical groups) DO consider Jesus to be G-d, despite the fact that it's not Kosher to do so.
As for whether he died for the world or Israel, he died initially for Israel, he specifically said
There's only so many ways you can interpret that.
And he told his Disciples to initially stay completely away from the gentiles. For a gentile to become part of the Church, they must become grafts to the tree, which means they must act like us, not us act like them. In other words, they must adopt the Torah and become like Jews. This is where the big controversy with Paulinism comes in, which was essentially not a major problem until around Marcion's time, but the controversy with Paul does have roots that go back to the pre-70 A.D. era.
Many MJs, like Zardoz here and myself, reject Paul's teachings and apostleship, and that is a very controversial subject. Most MJs are basically Evangelicals who obey the Law, many consider Paul to be completely pro-Jewish, and we all agree that obedience to the Law is a necessary minimum to maintain or earn the state of "being saved", for more questions, you can try the Messianic DIR, Zardoz can help provide some answers there as well. The initial church was completely Jewish and was but a Sect of Judaism.
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
how can they believe Jesus could be sinless and yet not be God??
waitasec
Veteran Member
blasphemy is a sin...
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
Wasn't Adam created sinless ?
Weren't the angels created sinless ?
Were sinless Adam and the sinless angels God ?
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
Then why didn't the resurrected Jesus say he was God at John [20v17]?
Didn't Jesus already explain in verse 17 that he was going to ascend to his Father and to his God ?
True doubting Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and my God".
But that was Not Jesus making that exclamation.
Even today we hear on a news cast when someone is surprised they say in front of the reporter "Oh my God" and no one thinks they are calling the reporter as being God.
How does John conclude chapter 20 ?
Doesn't John write that he [John] writes so that we might believe the resurrected Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.....
Who does the resurrected heavenly Jesus think he is at Rev. 2v18?
Doesn't the resurrected heavenly Jesus still think he has a God over him at Rev 3v12 ?
How many thrones does Jesus need in heaven ?
How many thrones are mentioned at Rev. 3v21 ?
created sinless...did adam remain sinless....
angels were not flesh....
The pre-human Jesus was Not flesh either.
God did not send a physical human Jesus to earth.
Jesus was not human before his life was transferred to Mary.
Satan and his demons did not remain sinless.
Adam and Eve did not remain sinless.
According to Hebrews [4v15] Jesus was tested just as we are, although Jesus was perfect [sinless] because Jesus was born without human imperfection.
-2nd Cor. 5v21
Unlike Satan and Adam, Jesus chose Not to sin.
Perfect Adam was unfaithful in least.
Perfect Jesus was faithful in much.
waitasec
Veteran Member
only if you are lying about who you are, if it's the truth it's not....
apparently jesus wanted to run as soon as he saw judas and the crew of soldiers...
we are defined by what we do...jesus was afraid.
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
when you say Jesus you mean the arch angel michael right???
he was born sinless but he was flesh and God...??
without human imperfection yet he tired and he hungered...
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
when you say Jesus you mean the arch angel michael right???
he was born sinless but he was flesh and God...??
without human imperfection yet he tired and he hungered...
The 'Lord' of 1st Thess 4v16 is Jesus.
Please post Scripture where or who says Jesus was God.
The heavenly resurrected Jesus believes he is the beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3v14 B
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
the jews....
33The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.
Shermana
Heretic
And as I said several times,, it's an Anarthrous Theon (no article) and should read "You a mere man, make yourself to be a god". That's the only way to understand what he means in John 10:34. But hey, who needs grammar. If you disagree, look at Acts 12:22.
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The same Greek grammar rule applies at John 10v33 as at Acts 28v6 B.
The letter 'a' appears at Acts, and following the same Greek grammar rule it would read at John 'make yourself 'a' god. [Greek has lower case 'g']
The same lower case 'g' as used at Psalm 82v6.
Please continue reading down from John 10v33 to verse 36.
In verse 36 please notice why the *Jews* say Jesus was a blasphemer.
because: I [Jesus] said, " I am the Son of God".
How many people in the gospel of John say Jesus is God:
Was it John at 1v34?
Was it Nathanael at 1v49 ?
Was it the 12 apostles at 6v69?
Was it Martha at 11v27?
Was it the *Jews* at 19v7 ?
Was it John at 20v31?
What are your thoughts about John's words at 1st John 4v12 A ?
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
28Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
if its a god how many Gods did the Jews believe in and why would pretending to be a different God bother them...
Shermana
Heretic
RSV says "Blood of his own son", as do many others, the grammar is clearly indicative "of his own" being a separate being. Tou Idiou means "of his own" to clearly indicate such separation.
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Ac20_28.html
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