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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
John 8:58
I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί
Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ
ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT="] used absolutely, where no predicate is expressed or implied, is the equivalent of the solemn [/FONT][FONT="]אֲנִי־הוּא[/FONT][FONT="], I (am) He, which is the self-designation of Yahweh in the prophets.
[/FONT] Note how "eimi" is used absolutely in Psalm 90:2 too:
σὺ εἶ (You are God)
[FONT="]The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT="][genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="][eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT="] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT="] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT="] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT="] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]
γενέσθαι and εἰμί are simply different verbs. If the meaning intended was that Jesus came into existence like Abraham, but before him, the same verb would have been used.
The two verses are very similar:
σὺ εἶ: you are (You are God)
ἐγὼ εἰμί: I am
The same verb ειμι, present active indicative. (used in the absolute sense)
So by comparison, it means "I am God".
By the way, even the few translations (including the NWT) that render John 8:58 as "I was/I have been" render Ps 90:2 as "Thou art God/You are God", which further proves them wrong.
I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί
Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ
ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT="] used absolutely, where no predicate is expressed or implied, is the equivalent of the solemn [/FONT][FONT="]אֲנִי־הוּא[/FONT][FONT="], I (am) He, which is the self-designation of Yahweh in the prophets.
[/FONT] Note how "eimi" is used absolutely in Psalm 90:2 too:
σὺ εἶ (You are God)
[FONT="]The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT="][genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="][eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT="] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT="] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT="] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT="] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT="] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]
γενέσθαι and εἰμί are simply different verbs. If the meaning intended was that Jesus came into existence like Abraham, but before him, the same verb would have been used.
The two verses are very similar:
σὺ εἶ: you are (You are God)
ἐγὼ εἰμί: I am
The same verb ειμι, present active indicative. (used in the absolute sense)
So by comparison, it means "I am God".
By the way, even the few translations (including the NWT) that render John 8:58 as "I was/I have been" render Ps 90:2 as "Thou art God/You are God", which further proves them wrong.
outhouse
Atheistically
isnt trying to tie into context to phrases written hundreds of years a part by different authors from different times and cultures that changed bad exegesis???
Try to ask a correct question before talking about exegesis.
waitasec
Veteran Member
How cute!
I would think so since the older documents weren't even orignally written in the same language. I smell interpolated. I and others have already mentioned that inserting god at the end of that phrase makes it sound non-sensical.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
It really is...considering the scholars that side with this exegesis are trinitarian scholars. Non-trinitarian scholars who were or are Greek professors and linguist disagree.
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outhouse
Atheistically
this isnt burger king, its not always your way in a debate because you want it as such.
outhouse
Atheistically
this isnt burger king, its not always your way in a debate because you want it as such.
its bad exegesis
Further failure
not nom
Well-Known Member
even more fail
waitasec
Veteran Member
but there have been plenty....
not nom
Well-Known Member
maybe god is trying to tell you something.
The few that were given were replied to and refuted.
But attacking the authenticity of the Gospel of John really showed that there is no answer.
not nom
Well-Known Member
by "refuted" you mean saying "fail" all the time, lol?
no, it just shows you ignore everything else. like, when I asked you ages ago, what makes you think this makes ANY sense, seeing how the psalms was hardly written in greek originally... how do you even think this constitutes an argument to begin with that needs to be refuted?
waitasec
Veteran Member
in other words, you have nothing
other than your biased opinion to support your claims...
using words like attacking reveals ones desperation.