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Did Jesus say he was God???

Volgin

Volgin

Member
What i believe is that Jesus Christ (May Allah be blessed with him) never said that He was God. He was blessed with some powers like heaing people and making dead alive. But this does not mean he was God. God is the one who blessed him these Powers.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
Mark2020 said:
It's all about comparing verses and words from the bible.
Should be simple really.
Click to expand...

the trees are green in norway

the trees are green in the north pole...


lets compare these lines and words and deduce the facts shall we?

should be simple really...
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Mark2020 said:
It's all about comparing verses and words from the bible.
Should be simple really.
Click to expand...


And thats your problem


You were not there when they wrote these words and have no idea on the context of said statements. Everything you do is at face value.

Plus you lack the historical knowledge regarding the scholarly work done on said passages in said books.




Jesus never stated he was a god but did imply he was a close follower of theistic values in the culture at that time.



You place way to much credibility on people who are creating theology that never knew or met jesus, the unknown gospel authors.

John has multiple authors or groups of authors and was written very late. You dont have a leg to stand on :sleep:
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
URAVIP2ME said:
At John [8v58 KJV] the 'I am' has the Greek root in the present tense as: 'am'.
Grammar books do acknowledge that where an expression of past time appears in the sentence, [Before Abraham was I am.]
the present tense verb can sometime be translated as if it has begun in the past time and continues up to the present time.
That would mean translating in Greek can be meaning instead of 'I am' present tense to be 'I have been'. [Before Abraham was I have been.]
Before God, who had No beginning, who sent Jesus to earth, Jesus would have been existing in heaven [before Abraham] in his pre-human existence as in the heavenly beginning, but Not before the beginning.
[Rev 3v14 B]
Anarthrous Theo [no article] ....be a god. Acts 12v22.
John 1v1 one predicate noun is nominative, other noun is accusative.
Scott is THE man. Scott is A man.
Jesus is THE Word. Jesus is A god.
Click to expand...

Mark2020

'I am' is not I AM but the tense of the sentence structure as mentioned above.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
waitasec said:
are your sources trinitarians?
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James Moffatt and Edgar Goodspeed, who translated it as "I have been" were both Trinitarians. They also translated John 1:1c as "And the word was Divine". I believe they were aware that the renditions of 8:58 and 1:1c so prominent in the Mainstream "Trinitarian" spectrum were actually Modalistic/Sabbellian renditions.

It's also important to note that many (Especially Hebrew-speaking Jews) consider the Divine name of Ehyeh Asher Ahyeh to not be "I am" but "I will be", this is how Theodotion and Aquila rendered it in their Septuagints.
 
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Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony

http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=2&chapter=3&verse=14&portion=13
3:14 'I Will Be Who I Will Be,' replied God to Moses. [God then] explained, 'This is what you must say to the Israelites: 'I Will Be sent me to you.' '
Vayomer Elohim el-Moshe eheyeh asher eheyeh vayomer koh tomar livney Yisra'el eheyeh shlachani aleychem.

3:15God then said to Moses, 'You must [then] say to the Israelites, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.' This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.
Vayomer od Elohim el-Moshe koh tomar el-beney Yisra'el Adonay Elohey avoteychem Elohey Avraham Elohey Yitschak ve'Elohey Ya'akov shlachani aleychem zeh-shemi le'olam vezeh zichri ledor dor.

I get the sense Jews don't share the say view of their scriptures as they have been rendered by the Septuagint.

Dr. George M. Lamsa
Dr. George M. Lamsa
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Dr. George M. Lamsa (August 5, 1892 – September 22, 1975) was an Assyrian scholar and author. He was born in Mar Bishu in what is now the extreme east of Turkey. A native Aramaic speaker, he translated the Aramaic Pe****ta. Dr. Lamsa was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East. He was a strong advocate of one of that Church's beliefs: Pe****ta primacy (a form of Aramaic primacy). His hypothesis was that for the New Testament, the Aramaic Pe****ta was the original text, and the Greek version was translated from it. In support of this, he noted that Aramaic was the language of Jesus, His Disciples and the earliest Christians, including the authors of the Bible.
Click to expand...


He renders John 8:58 as...
"Before Abraham existed, I was.

He's not the only one that renders that verse that way. Many render it as (I was, I have been, I exist, I existed). John 8:58 has nothing to do with Exodus 3:14.
[FONT=arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
 
M

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Mark2020

'I am' is not I AM but the tense of the sentence structure as mentioned above.
Click to expand...

Why do you keep jumping from a point to another.
You said it is "I have been", and I proved it is "I am".

Looks like you read nothing of this:
Mark2020 said:
What has this got to do with anything?

John 8:58
"before Abraham was born, I am!"
πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

The same contrast is very clear here:

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ

Even the NWT renders this "you are God", not "you have been God"
Obviously it is a deliberate mistranslation by the NWT in John 8:58, like many others.

σὺ εἶ: you are (You are God)
ἐγὼ εἰμί: I am
The same verb ειμι, used absolutely, Present active indicative.

So by comparison, not only does it mean "I am", it means "I am God"


[FONT=&quot]The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT=&quot][genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot][eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT=&quot] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT=&quot] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT=&quot] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT=&quot] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]

They are simply different verbs. If the meaning intended was that Jesus came into existence like Abraham, but before him, the same verb would have been used.

I already asked you to read the topic before posting such meaningless comments.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/121296-john-1-1-anarthrous-theos-big.html

But if this is too hard, check this:

[FONT=&quot](Isaiah 41:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]b[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [NIV]) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I, the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]LORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot]--with the first of them and with the last--I am he."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Isaiah 41:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]b[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [LXX]) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]εγω [/FONT][FONT=&quot]θεος [/FONT][FONT=&quot]πρωτος και εις τα επερχομενα εγω ειμι[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(Isaiah 41:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]b[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [HiSB]) [/FONT]אֲנִ֤י יְהוָה֙ רִאשׁ֔וֹן וְאֶת־ אַחֲרֹנִ֖ים אֲנִי־ הֽוּא׃
[FONT=&quot](Isaiah 41:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]b[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [NWT]) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"I, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jehovah[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the First One; and with the last ones I am the same."[/FONT]

Notice how Jehovah/the LORD correspond to theos (without definite article or anarthrous)
If you want to apply your rule (which isn't even a rule in the Greek language), you should replace Jehovah with "a god".

You are being deceived my friend.

I ignored the verse from Revelation, since I replied to you many times about it already:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/18474-jesus-god-88.html
Click to expand...
 
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M

Mark2020

Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin said:
Dr. George M. Lamsa
He renders John 8:58 as...
Click to expand...

I already explained the translation of the Pe****ta of John 8:58.

Younan's Interlinear has this note on John 8:58:
See note on verse 13 (24 in English translations). The idiom is present here in the English as well.

The note on verse 13: In Semitic thought, the phrase ‘Ena-na’ (I am) conveys a thought of eternal existence reserved only for God. This naturally leads to the following question in verse 14 (25).

They only used past tense to fit "before Abraham was", which I proved wrong using Psalms 90:2.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Mark2020 said:
That's useless unless you are able to prove your words.
Click to expand...

And thats your problem


You were not there when they wrote these words and have no idea on the context of said statements. Everything you do is at face value.

Plus you lack the historical knowledge regarding the scholarly work done on said passages in said books.




Jesus never stated he was a god but did imply he was a close follower of theistic values in the culture at that time.



You place way to much credibility on people who are creating theology that never knew or met jesus, the unknown gospel authors.

John has multiple authors or groups of authors and was written very late. You dont have a leg to stand on :sleep:
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Mark2020 said:
I already explained the translation of the Pe****ta of John 8:58.

Younan's Interlinear has this note on John 8:58:
See note on verse 13 (24 in English translations). The idiom is present here in the English as well.

The note on verse 13: In Semitic thought, the phrase ‘Ena-na’ (I am) conveys a thought of eternal existence reserved only for God. This naturally leads to the following question in verse 14 (25).

They only used past tense to fit "before Abraham was", which I proved wrong using Psalms 90:2.
Click to expand...



Look Pa! he/she is a postin more of them thar trinitareeeesheans agin
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Mark2020 said:
useless repetition that didn't answer the question.



Attacking people for their beliefs without addressing what they say is poor.
Click to expand...


And thats your problem


You were not there when they wrote these words and have no idea on the context of said statements. Everything you do is at face value.

Plus you lack the historical knowledge regarding the scholarly work done on said passages in said books.




Jesus never stated he was a god but did imply he was a close follower of theistic values in the culture at that time.



You place way to much credibility on people who are creating theology that never knew or met jesus, the unknown gospel authors.

John has multiple authors or groups of authors and was written very late. You dont have a leg to stand on :sleep:
 
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