So you've got nothing other than repeating such useless words, or just attacking people for their beliefs.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
So you've got nothing other than repeating such useless words, or just attacking people for their beliefs.
outhouse
Atheistically
You taught me this
And thats your problem
You were not there when they wrote these words and have no idea on the context of said statements. Everything you do is at face value.
Plus you lack the historical knowledge regarding the scholarly work done on said passages in said books.
Jesus never stated he was a god but did imply he was a close follower of theistic values in the culture at that time.
You place way to much credibility on people who are creating theology that never knew or met jesus, the unknown gospel authors.
John has multiple authors or groups of authors and was written very late. You dont have a leg to stand on :sleep:
just keep repeating the same thing over and over and pray it sticks
outhouse
Atheistically
bigbadgirl
Active Member
Since Jesus never wrote anything, we can assume he never claimed to be God.
starlite
Texasgirl
And on what authority do you base your beliefs?
waitasec
Veteran Member
outhouse
Atheistically
Nope, we just dont know for sure what he actually claimed as we know the theology grew after his death.
I mean, no one wrote about him while he was a live because he was not widespread and popular at that point.
His story grew after death.
outhouse
Atheistically
its not belief per say
take John, it was written almost 60-70 ish years after yeshuas death. We know there were atleast 3 authors or groups of authors.
John himself was said to be illiterate by some accounts.
here look at this
Gospel of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Gospel's authorship is anonymous. Its Chapter 21 states it derives from the testimony of the 'disciple whom Jesus loved.'
Raymond E. Brown did pioneering work to trace the development of the tradition from which the gospel arose.[4] The discourses seem to be concerned with the actual issues of the church-and-synagogue debate at the time when the Gospel was written[5] c. AD 90. It is notable that, in the gospel, the community still appears to define itself primarily against Judaism, rather than as part of a wider Christian church
The Church Fathers Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, and Justin Martyr did not mention this gospel, either because they did not know it or did not approve of it
HERE is a important phrase
According to the majority viewpoint for most of the 20th century, Jesus' teaching in John is largely irreconcilable with that found in the Synoptics, and scholars have chosen the version found in the Synoptics as representing the teaching of the historical Jesus
starlite
Texasgirl
My research gives evidence that John was the writer:
(1) The writer of the book was evidently a Jew, as is indicated by his familiarity with Jewish opinions.Joh 1:21; 6:14; 7:40; 12:34.
(2) He was a native dweller in the land of Palestine, as is indicated by his thorough acquaintance with the country. The details mentioned concerning places named indicate personal knowledge of them. He referred to Bethany across the Jordan (Joh 1:28) and Bethany near Jerusalem. He wrote that there was a garden at the place where Christ was impaled and a new memorial tomb in it, that Jesus spoke in the treasury as he was teaching in the temple, and that it was wintertime, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the colonnade of Solomon.
(3) The writers own testimony and the factual evidence show that he was an eyewitness. He names individuals who said or did certain things (Joh 1:40; 6:5, 7; 12:21; 14:5, 8, 22; 18:10); he is detailed about the times of events (4:6, 52; 6:16; 13:30; 18:28; 19:14; 20:1; 21:4); he factually designates numbers in his descriptions, doing so unostentatiously.1:35; 2:6; 4:18; 5:5; 6:9, 19; 19:23; 21:8, 11.
(4) The writer was an apostle. No one but an apostle could have been eyewitness to so many events associated with Jesus ministry; also his intimate knowledge of Jesus mind, feelings, and reasons for certain actions reveals that he was one of the party of 12 who accompanied Jesus throughout his ministry. For example, he tells us that Jesus asked Philip a question to test him, for he himself knew what he was about to do. Jesus knew in himself that his disciples were murmuring. He knew all the things coming upon him. He groaned in the spirit and became troubled. The writer was also familiar with the apostles thoughts and impressions, some of which were wrong and were corrected later.
(5) Additionally, the writer is spoken of as the disciple whom Jesus used to love. He was evidently one of the three most intimate apostles that Jesus kept nearest to him on several occasions, such as the transfiguration and the time of his anguish in the garden of Gethsemane. Of these three apostles, James is eliminated as the writer because of his being put to death about 44 C.E. by Herod Agrippa I. There is no evidence whatsoever for such an early date for the writing of this Gospel. Peter is ruled out by having his name mentioned alongside the disciple whom Jesus used to love.
Authenticity:
The Gospel of John was accepted as canonical by the early Christian congregation. It appears in nearly all the ancient catalogs, being there accepted without question as authentic. The epistles of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 C.E.) contain clear traces of his use of Johns Gospel, as do also the writings of Justin Martyr a generation later. It is found in all the most important codices of the Christian Greek Scriptures the Sinaitic, Vatican, Alexandrine, Ephraemi, Bezae, Washington I, and Koridethi codicesas well as in all the early versions. A fragment of this Gospel containing part of John chapter 18 is contained in the John Rylands Papyrus 457 (P52), of the first half of the second century. Also parts of chapters 10 and 11 are found in the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 1 (P45), and a large part of the whole book is found in the Bodmer Papyrus No. 2 (P66) of the early third century.
outhouse
Atheistically
not relevant as at that time there were no christians yet
with that said j gospel shows much more christian tendancies then the synoptic gospels.
but this was knowledge to many and not only john
this is simply false, john has a minimum of 3 authors or groups of authors
we dont know that, not even close to knowing that
there are so many contradictions in this gospel theres no way he was a eyewitness ever to yeshua
yes he spoke of this and its exactly why they named the gospel john what 100-200 years after it was written.
that doesnt give it any historicity at all.
heres the facts of the matter
Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it,[12][13][14][15][16][17] and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three "layers", reaching its final form about 90-100 AD
now you just cannot discount scholars because you dont like what they tell you
You also cant follow biased sources, if you did any work at all on this you would see many scholars are christian and agree exactly with what I posted
There is clear bias in the way that was written in greek. How our they comparing an NT source not originally in greek with an OT source not originally in greek. Was the same hebrew word used, Jesus using some Aramaic version? Sounds like just personal preference you have and it really sounds far fetched. In the context Jesus used it makes more sense to be using a general existence as he was comparing his existence to that of Abraham not god.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Exactly. That is why I listed what I listed in regards to George Lamsa. He was born and raised in the area and spoke the language. He renders John 8:58 the same as many do in Aramaic. Even at pe****ta.org you'll find it rendered in the proper fashion. The thing is George Lamsa was a Christian from the Assyrian Church of the East. The other thing to note is peshiita.org's site and forum members are trinitarian or heavily trinitarian influenced and yet the actual translation is rendered just as I posted as well as in line with other accredited scholars/Linguist on the subject.
Seems he had a moment of doubt there but maybe he got over it somehow. "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." Although those are different versions of what he said not sure of the order. Either way not the words of a god. They are words of a follower of god."why have you forsaken me?"
this just doesn't add up to me. if jesus, as god, knew before he became a mortal what he had to do...why ask himself 'why have i forsaken myself?'
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
"why have you forsaken me?"
this just doesn't add up to me. if jesus, as god, knew before he became a mortal what he had to do...why ask himself 'why have i forsaken myself?'
Right...Just like Luke 23:46
"And when Yeshua had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit...."
:no:
waitasec
Veteran Member
well we have 2 very different narratives.
in mark he's scared and quiet...there is no mention of 'into your hands I commend my spirit'
in luke he's accepting and even promises eternal life to the criminal hanging next to him where is he also portrayed as one who is making fun of him in mark... but i digress
waitasec
Veteran Member
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Exactly....
I did a search through an online bible that is of the trinitarian persuasion and what I noticed is the instances of the Hebrew word, ehyeh, in the bible always meant (shall be, will be) until you get to Exodus 3:14 where they intentionally render it as (I AM THAT I AM). This is pure theological bias. If one reads the Hebrew and as they render it, it reads (I will be)...as I have posted. It takes some stones to tell the Jews they're reading their scriptures incorrectly....And the Pe****ta or even the Coptic that I've seen don't render John 8:58 as ("I am"), they all say (I was or I have been)...
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waitasec
Veteran Member
the NIV says this
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.[c] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
c Exodus 3:14 Or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE
the NKJ
says:
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
reading this you get the sense that god isn't "I AM" rather HE WILL get his way...
does that make sense?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Not at all which is why I always go to a Jewish source to see how they understand and render their scriptures. Let me just say this categorically....The Septuagint is WORTHLESS and I'm not sure why we're trying to use Greek renderings of the Hebrew scripture.......There are some things in the KJV they got right and others where they clearly missed the mark. Exodus 3:14 is a prime example.....
http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.a...=14&portion=13
3:14 'I Will Be Who I Will Be,' replied God to Moses. [God then] explained, 'This is what you must say to the Israelites: 'I Will Be sent me to you.' '
3:15God then said to Moses, 'You must [then] say to the Israelites, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.' This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.
The above is how it should be. Notice in 3:15 "God" actually tells Moses his name?
"YHVH...is my eternal name"......and this is how I'm to be recalled for all generations...