Did Jesus say he was God???

[SaintAugustine]

it's "i will be"

as in i will be god ... jesus couldn't be god...he was a human and died..oddly enough

and rose again, oddly enough.


No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay ... I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again...John 10:18

 

[waitasec]

and rose again, oddly enough.


No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay ... I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again...John 10:18

a baseless claim...

 

[Pegg]

14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Hebrew:Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh

Exodus 3:14...as part of ancient egyptian ritual if you could say the Gods/Goddesses name you could control them. God doesn't play that....and simply answers...I AM. And yes...Jesus famous 7 I am's give one pause. Finally....John 8:58. Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”, which means that Jesus existed before His human life on earth.

The king James version may translate the verse as "I Am'... but its not the way all bible translators have rendered it.

4th/5th century Syriac—Edition:
“before Abraham was, I have been”
A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest,
by Agnes Smith Lewis, London, 1894.

Fifth Century Curetonian Syriac—Edition:
“before ever Abraham came to be, I was”
The Curetonian Version of
the Four Gospels, by F.Crawford Burkitt, Vol. 1, Cambridge, England, 1904.

Fifth Century Syriac Pe****ta—Edition:
“before Abraham existed, I was”
The Syriac New Testament Translated into English from the Pe****to Version,
by James Murdock, seventh ed., Boston and London, 1896.

Fifth Century Georgian—Edition:
“before Abraham came to be, I was”
“The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John,” byRobert P. Blake and Maurice Brière, published in Patrologia Orientalis, Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950.

Sixth Century Ethiopic—Edition:
“before Abraham was born, I was”
Novum Testamentum . . . Æthiopice (The New Testament . . . in Ethiopic), by Thomas Pell Platt, revised by F. Praetorius, Leipzig, 1899.


Ex 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint reads: ᾿Εγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (E·go′ ei·mi ho on), which means “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One.”
Trinitarians are wrong to claim that the king James versions rendering of 'I Am' in John is the equivalent to the expression found in Exodus. They do not mean the same thing...they are quite different.

 

[SaintAugustine]

a baseless claim...

not baseless if true.

Let see women first see him, then the diciples, then the two on the road to Emmaus; then Paul a former anti christian tracker and terriost.

Christianity survives the entire Roman Empire..no mean feat for the first 300 years of its existence.

Numerous religions are born, grow strong. Empires rise and fall. Fortunes gained and lost. Great books written. Philosophies proclaimed and debated. Science makes great strides.....and after 2,000 years......Christianity is still the largest religion on the planet...you were saying something about baseless claim?

 

[SaintAugustine]

Ex 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint reads: ᾿Εγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (E·go′ ei·mi ho on), which means “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One.”
Trinitarians are wrong to claim that the king James versions rendering of 'I Am' in John is the equivalent to the expression found in Exodus. They do not mean the same thing...they are quite different.

A) I am the Being...I am the Existing One...

B) I Am

are these not the same thing.

 

[Shermana]

I and my Father are one - The word translated "one" is not in the masculine, but in the neuter gender. It expresses union. John 10:30 also “He who has seen me has seen the Father..John 14:9.

oh I don't know..going around saying your God in any time or era..no one will listen. But say your the son of man, the Messiah, the Son of God...in that time, and place...and many were waiting on the Messiah....another perfect timing moment by God.

As has been argued numerous times on this thread (Along with pretty much all other Trinitarian arguments), Jesus says "Let them be one as we are one", so unless you're willing to say that the Disciples are all equally God too, you'd be best to accept that Jesus was saying that the "one" thing was metaphorical, like "me and the team are one".

 

[Shermana]

14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Hebrew:Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh

Exodus 3:14...as part of ancient egyptian ritual if you could say the Gods/Goddesses name you could control them. God doesn't play that....and simply answers...I AM. And yes...Jesus famous 7 I am's give one pause. Finally....John 8:58. Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”, which means that Jesus existed before His human life on earth.

Again, that's one particular translation, of which appears to be a total distortion of the grammar, even if its the mainstream and common interpretation, the name itself is "I shall be", and the "Absolute" of "Eyheh", as Philo translated it was "Ho on", or "The one who is". It is a totally different translation in the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus than it is in the ancient translations.

You will see many times that "Eyheh" is used as "WIll be" and "have been", but it is never really used as "am", and when the translators do use it as "am" it is fairly dubious and better translated as "have been".

 

[SaintAugustine]

I assume your referring to John 17:31...I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

I dont' interperet that at all like you did. I see it as a prayer that God and man be be one again. United. Not literal gods. Sorry.

 

[Pegg]

A) I am the Being...I am the Existing One...

B) I Am

are these not the same thing.

No they are not the same thing. The subject of the verse in exodus is not 'i am'
the subject matter is 'the existing one' or 'the being'

And the hebrew phrase ʼEh·yeh′ ʼAsher′ ʼEh·yeh′ literally means “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”

some other translations render Exodus as follows:
Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”
Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.”

ʼEh·yeh′ comes from the Hebrew verb ha·yah′ meaning “become; prove to be.”
Its written in the imperfect state, first person singular., meaning “I shall become”

In John, Jesus is affirming his own existence, but in Exodus it is different. Its not a phrase which affirms Gods existence, but rather it affirms what he has in mind to become toward others.

 

[Shermana]

I assume your referring to John 17:31...I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

I dont' interperet that at all like you did. I see it as a prayer that God and man be be one again. United. Not literal gods. Sorry.

I don't think you understood what I meant. It's more John 17:21. If you use John 10:30 to get that "Jesus and god are one", then you'd have to apply the same meaning of "being one" for the Disciples. Obviously then, John 10:30 is anything but a proof text for the Trinity or that "being one" means they are parts/persons of the same being.

 

[waitasec]

not baseless if true.

"if" what an inconvenient little word for you...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Exodus 3:14...as part of ancient egyptian ritual if you could say the Gods/Goddesses name you could control them. God doesn't play that....and simply answers...I AM. And yes...Jesus famous 7 I am's give one pause. Finally....John 8:58. Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”, which means that Jesus existed before His human life on earth.

Yes, Jesus existed before his human life on earth. [Proverbs 8vs22-31]
Jesus had to have a pre-human heavenly existence in order for God to send Jesus to earth. A pre-human existence as the heavenly 'beginning creation by God' according to Rev. 3v14.

Although the Greek grammar root does say 'am' in the present tense,
at John [8v58] where the expression of past time appears in the sentence,
the present-tense verb can be translated as to what began in the past time and continues up to the present time which makes 'I am' as 'I have been'.

So, John [8v58] has more to do with grammar rules than doctrine.

 

[SaintAugustine]

sorry, 21 and I do see what your saying. I just don't agree.


And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Mark 1:11

 

[URAVIP2ME]

and rose again, oddly enough.
No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay ... I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again...John 10:18

'Rose again' by being resurrected 'by God' according to Luke at Acts [2v32]
and Paul agrees at Colossians [2v12 B].

John [10v18] is in reference to John [2vs18-22] Jesus was 'risen' or meaning resurrected from the dead 'by God'.

By dying faithful Jesus knew he would have his heavenly life back again.
Who gave Jesus the 'AUTHORITY' [go ahead] at John 10v18 ?
Didn't all 'authority' or 'permission' come to Jesus from his God?
Jesus was certain he would do nothing of his own initiative [John 5v30]
Jesus knew the dead are in a helpless unconscious sleep-like state .
[John 11vs11-14; Ecc. 9v5; Psalm 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4]
So, his everlasting God [who can not die.- Psalm 90v2]
would resurrect Jesus out of the biblical hell [sheol].
- Acts 2 vs27,31,32; Psalm 16v10

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't think you understood what I meant. It's more John 17:21. If you use John 10:30 to get that "Jesus and god are one", then you'd have to apply the same meaning of "being one" for the Disciples. Obviously then, John 10:30 is anything but a proof text for the Trinity or that "being one" means they are parts/persons of the same being.

....and if one continues reading down to verse 36 [John 10:36]
there we read that the Jews thought Jesus was Not saying he was God,
but the Jews did Not like that Jesus was saying that he [Jesus] said:
he is the Son of God. The Jews still believed that at John 19v7.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

John 4:25-26..claim of Messiahship

60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?”

61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

Mark 14:60-64

7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.” John 19:7

Sanhedrin accuses him of blasphemy punishable by death. Can't execute him, themselves..takes him to Pilate, who crucifies for treason against the state, as King of the Jews.


16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 1
Matthew 15-17, confesses who he is to diciples.

Mark 3:11
Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”
demons confirm who he is the Son of God.

So where did he say he was "God"..?

 

[SaintAugustine]

So where did he say he was "God"..?

I and the father are one.
He who has seen me has seen the father
by claiming to be the Messiah, or the Son of God, plus the cumulative effect of his miracles, his sayngs, the resurrection all make him more than just a man, or even a man just touched by God. In theological terms he is the Incarnation of God on Earth, the Logos (Reason) made flesh...but you can't run around saying, Hey I am God...no one is gonna believe ya....

 

[LioneDea]

The biblical Yeshua doesn't given any additional information as to his existence other than he existed before Abraham existed (John 8:58) and that he existed (WITH) his god before the Earth was made.

Lione D' ea: How if I testify that statement when heavens and earth are not yet created the Son was there beside him and exist in (OT)..?

John 17:5 (Etheridge Pe****ta)
And now glorify thou me, my Father, with thyself, in that glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Without realizing it you're confirming what I've been saying all along but what you're not getting is that Yeshua, whether you call him the son or not, he displays in John 6:38 that he existed in heaven having a separate will before even being sent to Earth by his god. Throughout John the same theme is echoed..(you sent me, you instructed me, you gave me)...so we should not be left with some impression he's "God" because it is contrary to what he taught his followers.

QUOTE=Dirty Penguin;2843072]Yes. Which is to say his god (see. John 20:17) is greater than him and his god (see. Rev. 3:12) is greater than all. The "Father" is exactly what he told the Jews and that the "Father" is god.

John 8:54 (Etheridge Pe****ta)
Jeshu said to them, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father who glorifieth me; he, of whom you say that he is your God.[/QUOTE]



Actually I answered the question already.


Lione D' ea: Actually in my previous answer...the Son is separate being in Father, I'm not believer in oneness, and the cited didn't say Jesus Christ is not God there...



QUOTE=Dirty Penguin;2843072]Yes you can. The only way for you to make such a comment is to be totally oblivious to the text of the OT and many the definitions this word has associated with it. "almah" doesn't simply mean virgin. See the following....[/QUOTE]


Lione D' ea: I never say the meaning of young-woman is ONLY Virgin, because the the word young there is (Adj.)...


QUOTE=Dirty Penguin;2843072]Gen. 24:43 (Genesis - Chapter 24 (Parshah Chayei Sarah) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible)
Behold, I am standing by the water fountain. When a maiden comes out to draw [water], I will say to her, 'Please, give me a little water to drink from your pitcher.'

Exodus 2:8 (Exodus - Chapter 2 (Parshah Shemot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible)
Pharaoh's daughter said to her, "Go!" So the girl went and called the child's mother.

Psalms 68:25 (Tehillim - Chapter 68 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible)
Singers went first, minstrels afterwards, in the midst of maidens playing timbrels.

Proverbs 30:19 (Mishlei - Chapter 30 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible)
The way of the eagle in the heavens, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the heart of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman.

Songs 1:3 (Shir Hashirim - Chapter 1 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible)
Because of the fragrance of your goodly oils, your name is 'oil poured forth.' Therefore, the maidens loved you.

Songs 6:8 (Shir Hashirim - Chapter 6 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible)
There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and innumerable maidens.

Isaiah 7:14 (Yeshayahu - Chapter 7 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible)
Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

It's no surprise that the KJV renders both "alma" and "bethula" both to mean virgin. The KJV is a little more inconsistent with it at times. All Jewish scriptures I've come across render "alma" to not simply mean (virgin) but instead have used the word "bethula". This is why I don't rely solely on the KJV for a translation of your scripture. I go to the people (The Jewish - sources) in an effort to see and understand how they render their scriptures.[/QUOTE]


Lione D' ea: You can't identify the context and text what it express if your translation you have is only one...because there is comparison which is the best to translate and you can acquainted what is the error there, there are errors in the context and text in Bible that we have now that is fact, now if there is doubt about the translation, first you must read the original Bible...



QUOTE=Dirty Penguin;2843072]Yes but it would take a while to cover.[/QUOTE]




Lione D' ea: There is no problem in that cover, I am tested, can you show your bases...because I waiting...




(end.)

 

[idav]

I and the father are one.
He who has seen me has seen the father
by claiming to be the Messiah, or the Son of God, plus the cumulative effect of his miracles, his sayngs, the resurrection all make him more than just a man, or even a man just touched by God. In theological terms he is the Incarnation of God on Earth, the Logos (Reason) made flesh...but you can't run around saying, Hey I am God...no one is gonna believe ya....

Being an incarnation doesn't equal to being god. God simply isn't a human, God would just be taking the form without actually being human. I even think it would be possible for god to incarnate into several avatars at once.

God actually becoming a man is a trinity dogma having nothing to do with the sayings of the bible.

 

[waitasec]

I and the father are one.
He who has seen me has seen the father
by claiming to be the Messiah, or the Son of God, plus the cumulative effect of his miracles, his sayngs, the resurrection all make him more than just a man, or even a man just touched by God. In theological terms he is the Incarnation of God on Earth, the Logos (Reason) made flesh...but you can't run around saying, Hey I am God...no one is gonna believe ya....

hmmm i think you are wrong. here is why

john 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

[d] John 10:34 Psalm 82:6

John 10 NIV - The Good Shepherd and His Sheep - Bible Gateway

psalms 82
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

thats why...