Did Jesus say he was God???

[Katzpur]

Answer ; It A Habit Sorry . But I Bet If I Were To Write What You Wanted To Read It Really Wouldn't Matter At All

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but it would make finding the end of one sentence and the beginning of another one a lot easier.

 

[OverStandIng]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but it would make finding the end of one sentence and the beginning of another one a lot easier.

So What You Saying Your Looking For Mistake When The Thread / Post Doesn't Agree With You Belief's ? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL , No Matter How You Try To Dance Away From The Question Their Were More Then One Holy Ghost , And You Said There Was Only One True ?

 

[Katzpur]

So What You Saying Your Looking For Mistake When The Thread / Post Doesn't Agree With You Belief's ?

OverStanding, I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be rude, but it's very difficult for me to understand you. I'm not sure if it's the grammer, the spelling, the misplaced capital letters or what. Perhaps English is not your first language or perhaps you are very young. If either of these is the case, then I commend you for your efforts. That said, there are many people on this forum with whom I disagree on a number of points of doctrine. I am able to have a meaningful conversation with most of them, however, regardless of our differences of opinion. But a meaningful conversation requires that both people be able to understand what the other is saying. I don't think we have been able to do that so far.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ,

I'm glad you're so easily entertained.

No Matter How You Try To Dance Away From The Question Their Were More Then One Holy Ghost , And You Said There Was Only One True ?

It was not my attempt to dance away from the question. Yes, I did say that there is only one Holy Ghost. That's my belief. Apparently it's different from yours. Have a nice day.

 

[Francine]

You Do Know The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity , Yes ?

Thank you Overstanding. By saying the Catholic Church "inserted the Trinity" you affirm that the Catholic Church already existed less than a hundred years after the death of St. John. Because Theophilus of Antioch wrote to Autolycus, in the year 181 AD, "It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place..The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom".

 

[OverStandIng]

God The Father , Then You Have Humanity As His Children , And The Holy Ghost Are The AngelicBeings , You Are Useing 1John 5 ; 7 As If It Is Authentic When In Fact It Has Been Proven To Be A Distorted Scripture Nor Does It Exist In Any Of The Original Manuscripts I Don't Try To Discredit AnyThing

Or AnyOne I Just State The Facts , And I Am Only Interested In The Facts . To Answer Your Question . When The Bible Was In Its Original Language Of Aramaic ( Hebrew ) Arabic And Galilean Arabic , The Verse 1John 5 ; 7 , That Has Become The Foundation For The 3 Beings In 1 Concept Called

The Trinity DID NOT EXIST , It Also DID NOT EXIST IN GREEK , The Distortion With The Onset Of The Roman Catholic Church The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity Verse When They Translated The Bible From Greek To Latin I Purposely

Said '' Inserted '' And Not '' Translated '' Because , As I've Already Said The Original Greek Did Not Have This Verse . HowEver , You Will Find Some Greek Translation Have Either The Whole Trinity Verse Or Only A Portion Of It , 1John 5; 7 Is Surround In Controversy Because There Are Two Versions

Of This Verse Your Bibilical Scholars Say 1John 5; 7 . That Is Used In Most Bibles Today . Is Either Not The Origian Verse . Or They Say That Its Only Partially Genuine . There Have Been Many Arguments Between Scholars On This Subject When In Fact There Shouldn't Be Any Arguments Because The Original Aramaic And The Greek Manuscripts Don't Have This

1John 5 ; 7 , In It . The Problem Is They Really Don't Want To Admit That The Trinity Really Has No Basis In The Teaching Of Yashua , Making The Trinitarian Churches And Any Other Sect That Believe In This 3 In 1 Concept Obsolete , FurtherMore , In The Ancient Eastern Manusripts By George M Lamsa Which Is A Bible That Is Translated From The Original Aramaic And Syriac Language On Page 1222 , In 1John 5 ; 7 , You Will See That The Orginal Verse Says This ;...


Original Verse And The Spirit Testifies That That Very Spirit Is The Truth
Mistraslation This is he who came by water and blood , even Jesus Christ , not by water only , but water and blood , And theSpirit testifies that that very Spirt is the truth . And there are three to bear witness the Spirit and , the water and the blood ; and these three are one ,
Now , When You Read 1 John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible , You Will Read This ,

 

[OverStandIng]

1John 5 ; 7 For there are three that bear , Record in heaven , the father , the Word , and the holy ghost ; And these three are one . Do You See How The Verse Were Distorted ? They Are Both 1John 5 ; 7 , But They Don't Say The Same Thing ! That's Because In Your Standard Or Revised Edittion Bible , You Will Find The Original , Verse 5; 7 Has Been Actually Pushed Up To Merge With Verse 5; 6 . Now LQQk At 1John 5 ; 6 Below


'' This is he that came by water and , Blood , even Jesus Christ ; not by Water only , but by water and Blood And It Is The Spirit That Beareth Witness Because The Spirit Is Truth '' ;...The Underlined Segment Is Really The Original 1John 5 ; 7 By Combining The Original Verse 5 ;6 And 5 ; 7 Together , This Left Verse 5 ; 7 Made It Conviently Free To

Insert The False '' Trinity '' Verse . Just In Case You Think I Made This Up . Clarke's Commentary Also States That In The Very Early Bibles , This Verse Didn't Exist Clarke's Commentary Says This About 1John 5 ; 7 ;... '' But It Is Likely This Verse Is Not Genuine . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Every M .S . ( Manuscript ) Og This Epistle Written Before The Invention Of

Printing . One Expecyed . The Condex Montfortii , In '' Trinity College , Dublin ; The Others Which Omit , This Verse Amount To One Hundred And Twelve . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Both The Syriac . All The Arabic , Ethiopic , The Coptic , Sahidic .Armenian , Slavonian , In A Word , In All The Ancient Versions . But The Vulgate And Even Of This Version Many Of The Most Ancient And Correct , MSS . Have It Not .. It Is

Wanting ( Missing ) Also In All Ancient Greek Father , And In Most Even Of The Latin So What About Those Who Say A Portion Of The Quote Is True , Then There Are Those Scholars Who That Only Part Of This Quote Is Genuine Once Again , Let's Go Back To 1John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible . , The Father , The Word , And The Holy Ghost , And These Three

Are One > The Underlined Part Of This Quote Is The Part That Your So - Called Scholars Say Is Genuine . Some Bibles Are Equipped With Notes And Small Commentaries To Help You OverStand The Verses You Are Reading . If You Have Such A Bible . It Will Most Likely Say The Same Thing . For Instance , On Page 1776 In The Ryrie Study Bible It Says ;

Verse7 For there are three that bear record in heaven , The father the word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .
Commentary 5 ; 7 - 8 Should end with the word record The remander of Verse 7 And part of Verse 8 , Are Not In Any Ancient Greek Manuscript . Only In Later Latin Manuscripts .
Now , They Say Verse 7 And Verse 8 Is Only Partially

Genuine . There Are Even Some Greek Translation That Also Supports This Version , But That's Because They Were Translated From English Back Into Greek 1John 5 ; 7 Was Just Another Way To Confuse And Add Another False Sect And Belief . It Is One Of Those Things That Are Kept Quiet Because That Would Be The End Of Some People's Faith And That Is Something That People Who Promote Religion For A Profit Can't Afford To Do .

 

[OverStandIng]

OverStanding, I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be rude, but it's very difficult for me to understand you. I'm not sure if it's the grammer, the spelling, the misplaced capital letters or what. Perhaps English is not your first language or perhaps you are very young. If either of these is the case, then I commend you for your efforts. That said, there are many people on this forum with whom I disagree on a number of points of doctrine. I am able to have a meaningful conversation with most of them, however, regardless of our differences of opinion. But a meaningful conversation requires that both people be able to understand what the other is saying. I don't think we have been able to do that so far.

I'm glad you're so easily entertained.

It was not my attempt to dance away from the question. Yes, I did say that there is only one Holy Ghost. That's my belief. Apparently it's different from yours. Have a nice day.

I Don't Accept Any Testimony Of Any Kind .

 

[Francine]

I Don't Accept Any Testimony Of Any Kind .

Mark 6:11 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

 

[OverStandIng]

Mark 6:11 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

1 O God, whom I praise,
do not remain silent,

2 for wicked and deceitful men
have opened their mouths against me;
they have spoken against me with lying tongues.
3 With words of hatred they surround me;
they attack me without cause.
4 In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.
6 Appoint [a] an evil man [b] to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.
9 May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow.
10 May his children be wandering beggars;
may they be driven from their ruined homes.
11 May a creditor seize all he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor.
12 May no one extend kindness to him
or take pity on his fatherless children.
13 May his descendants be cut off,
their names blotted out from the next generation.
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD;
may the sin of his mother never be blotted out.
15 May their sins always remain before the LORD,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 For he never thought of doing a kindness,
but hounded to death the poor
and the needy and the brokenhearted.
17 He loved to pronounce a curse—
may it [e] come on him;
he found no pleasure in blessing—
may it be [f] far from him.
18 He wore cursing as his garment;
it entered into his body like water,
into his bones like oil.
19 May it be like a cloak wrapped about him,
like a belt tied forever around him.
20 May this be the LORD's payment to my accusers,
to those who speak evil of me.
21 But you, O Sovereign LORD,
deal well with me for your name's sake;
out of the goodness of your love, deliver me.
22 For I am poor and needy,
and my heart is wounded within me.
23 I fade away like an evening shadow;
I am shaken off like a locust.
24 My knees give way from fasting;
my body is thin and gaunt.
25 I am an object of scorn to my accusers;
when they see me, they shake their heads.
26 Help me, O LORD my God;
save me in accordance with your love.
27 Let them know that it is your hand,
that you, O LORD, have done it.
28 They may curse, but you will bless;
when they attack they will be put to shame,
but your servant will rejoice.
29 My accusers will be clothed with disgrace
and wrapped in shame as in a cloak.
30 With my mouth I will greatly extol the LORD;
in the great throng I will praise him. 31 For he stands at the right hand of the needy one,
to save his life from those who condemn him.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

To: OverStanting

Try not to be on the attack or on the defensive. Katz does not submit to trinitarian views. There are a lot of religions here and the first rule we are taught is to respect the way of life of others. Not everyone here will agree with your view either. For the most part, starting from your first post.....I agree....I suspect to a large degree Katz does as well.

I like your name "OverStanding" and your use of words like "tricknoledge"...Would you happen to be from the Nuwabian Nation?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

1John 5 ; 7 For there are three that bear , Record in heaven , the father , the Word , and the holy ghost ; And these three are one . Do You See How The Verse Were Distorted ? They Are Both 1John 5 ; 7 , But They Don't Say The Same Thing ! That's Because In Your Standard Or Revised Edittion Bible , You Will Find The Original , Verse 5; 7 Has Been Actually Pushed Up To Merge With Verse 5; 6 . Now LQQk At 1John 5 ; 6 Below


'' This is he that came by water and , Blood , even Jesus Christ ; not by Water only , but by water and Blood And It Is The Spirit That Beareth Witness Because The Spirit Is Truth '' ;...The Underlined Segment Is Really The Original 1John 5 ; 7 By Combining The Original Verse 5 ;6 And 5 ; 7 Together , This Left Verse 5 ; 7 Made It Conviently Free To

Insert The False '' Trinity '' Verse . Just In Case You Think I Made This Up . Clarke's Commentary Also States That In The Very Early Bibles , This Verse Didn't Exist Clarke's Commentary Says This About 1John 5 ; 7 ;... '' But It Is Likely This Verse Is Not Genuine . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Every M .S . ( Manuscript ) Og This Epistle Written Before The Invention Of

Printing . One Expecyed . The Condex Montfortii , In '' Trinity College , Dublin ; The Others Which Omit , This Verse Amount To One Hundred And Twelve . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Both The Syriac . All The Arabic , Ethiopic , The Coptic , Sahidic .Armenian , Slavonian , In A Word , In All The Ancient Versions . But The Vulgate And Even Of This Version Many Of The Most Ancient And Correct , MSS . Have It Not .. It Is

Wanting ( Missing ) Also In All Ancient Greek Father , And In Most Even Of The Latin So What About Those Who Say A Portion Of The Quote Is True , Then There Are Those Scholars Who That Only Part Of This Quote Is Genuine Once Again , Let's Go Back To 1John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible . , The Father , The Word , And The Holy Ghost , And These Three

Are One > The Underlined Part Of This Quote Is The Part That Your So - Called Scholars Say Is Genuine . Some Bibles Are Equipped With Notes And Small Commentaries To Help You OverStand The Verses You Are Reading . If You Have Such A Bible . It Will Most Likely Say The Same Thing . For Instance , On Page 1776 In The Ryrie Study Bible It Says ;

Verse7 For there are three that bear record in heaven , The father the word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .
Commentary 5 ; 7 - 8 Should end with the word record The remander of Verse 7 And part of Verse 8 , Are Not In Any Ancient Greek Manuscript . Only In Later Latin Manuscripts .
Now , They Say Verse 7 And Verse 8 Is Only Partially

Genuine . There Are Even Some Greek Translation That Also Supports This Version , But That's Because They Were Translated From English Back Into Greek 1John 5 ; 7 Was Just Another Way To Confuse And Add Another False Sect And Belief . It Is One Of Those Things That Are Kept Quiet Because That Would Be The End Of Some People's Faith And That Is Something That People Who Promote Religion For A Profit Can't Afford To Do .

I see what you mean. One of the bibles I like to use is the RSV. Even some of the later ones these verses crept back in. But the earlier versions made people mad because they threw out verses that were not in the earliest manuscripts. This RSV was translated by 32 scholars of the highest emmenance and backed by 50 cooperating denominations....Did I happen to mention they were all christians? I love it when they can get together and come to the realization that changes (corrections) needs to be made.

To see if Yeshua and God are the same one only has to look at John 6:38

John
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

We simply can't do away with this simple and straight forward verse. What does this verse mean? It means exactly what it says. This being, before being sent, tells us he had his own will and his god was the sender. If God is "one" as the bible says then surely God does not have two wills. This is where the trinity is void and is unsubstantiated by the bible. Forget all about the other verses. This one has not been dealt with. But this verse in conjunction with my post http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1028941-post783.html reveals this being before coming to earth is not God but rather a student and servant.......

 

[OverStandIng]

I see what you mean. One of the bibles I like to use is the RSV. Even some of the later ones these verses crept back in. But the earlier versions made people mad because they threw out verses that were not in the earliest manuscripts. This RSV was translated by 32 scholars of the highest emmenance and backed by 50 cooperating denominations....Did I happen to mention they were all christians? I love it when they can get together and come to the realization that changes (corrections) needs to be made.

To see if Yeshua and God are the same one only has to look at John 6:38

John
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

We simply can't do away with this simple and straight forward verse. What does this verse mean? It means exactly what it says. This being, before being sent, tells us he had his own will and his god was the sender. If God is "one" as the bible says then surely God does not have two wills. This is where the trinity is void and is unsubstantiated by the bible. Forget all about the other verses. This one has not been dealt with. But this verse in conjunction with my post http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1028941-post783.html reveals this being before coming to earth is not God but rather a student and servant.......

dregod < says > John
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Also here another on John 3 ; 16 .

Overstanding ; say If jesus sent my god then how can he be god .
One thing god can not do and that is to become less then himself a still be god .
Funny how people like playing on word s meaning adding their own words to the scriptures ( This Nothing More Then TricKnowledge Taught By The Minister LOLOLOL

 

[OverStandIng]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

None Of The Above Verses , States Jesus Being The Creator , Stop Adding Your Own Words To Verses That Are Not There , Jesus Said My God My God Why Have Thou Forsaken Me < Who Was Jesus Talking To In This Verse Himself , And If He Was God Has You Claim Why Would He Have A Need To Pray ?

 

[wednesday]

None Of The Above Verses , States Jesus Being The Creator , Stop Adding Your Own Words To Verses That Are Not There , Jesus Said My God My God Why Have Thou Forsaken Me < Who Was Jesus Talking To In This Verse Himself , And If He Was God Has You Claim Why Would He Have A Need To Pray ?

Jesus is not a God, his divinity cannot be proven and scripture is suspect at best. For all we know he was a talented carpenter and a famous man who did good things for his society and ticked off the Romans.

Unrelated: It would be magical if he really did turn water into wine, free alcohol

 

[Dirty Penguin]

None Of The Above Verses , States Jesus Being The Creator , Stop Adding Your Own Words To Verses That Are Not There , Jesus Said My God My God Why Have Thou Forsaken Me < Who Was Jesus Talking To In This Verse Himself , And If He Was God Has You Claim Why Would He Have A Need To Pray ?

You're going down the same slope I did in the beginning. It's not that they are adding to the scripture with these vesers it's that they are interpreting the information to mean something that is not there. Surely trinitarians will have an answer to your question. One of them is Yeshua was bound the same physical laws we mere humans are bound to so one would expect him to pray. this is incorrect due to the fact the scriptures say Yeshua was able to walk on water, turn water into wine, calm the storm and feed the multitude. This person surely was not bound by physical laws like us.

In that list of verses presented the Poster says "Words of Jesus" and if you noticed he cites Isaiah. This is incorrect. This is not Yeshua speaking. So he is misquoting here. John 10:33 is not Yeshua. The people accused him of making himself a God but as we read furthure Yeshua says;

10:34
Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, YOU blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Here we see Yeshua had to correct them. He was not trying to say he was God or equal himself with God. He merely said he was blessed by his god. The god that sent him into the world and that he was the son of God. There's nothing here to suggest he is God. This was a misinterpretation on the behalf of the Poster.


The poster goes on to list the "Attributes of God" and list omniscience. He proceeds to list quotes Yeshua made on earth to show that Yeshua was God. This again is a mis-reprensentation of Yeshua. If he is God in the flesh and the verses he posted were to show he is omniscient then can he explain this verse for us....?


Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Matthew
21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

What I'm saying here is if we are to consider, from what the Poster submits as evidence of omniscience, Yeshua to be God then these passages will need clarification because if he is God then he is ignorant of the day and hour and if we are to consider him God in the flesh then surely God would have known the seasons and knew it was not time for that tree to bare fruit. and if he did he wouldn't have cursed the tree.

The Poster tries to use the fact that Yeshua performed (miracles). This isn't a convincing argument. There were others in the scriptures that performed miracles including raising the dead. So Yeshua was not the only one. So this argument too fails. He presented it and said it was "OVERWHELMING EDVIDECE"........But we can clearly see that it's all wishful thinking and misintepretation.

The other claim they make is that he is God the son. First, this is not backed by scripture. They can't find amongst the 4 gospels Yeshua claiming to be God nor can information be found that the followers considered him God. Second, John 6:38 renders the theory of him being God void. In order to be sent there must be a sender. This would mean Yeshua is not God nor equal to God. Additionally, God does not have two wills.

 

[Muffled]

If God just called Himself the Son so that we might understand, I think it backfired. Because if the Father = the Son = the Holy Ghost = the Father, I'm more confused than ever. When Jesus asked that the bitter cup be removed, who was He praying to? Himself? Why didn't He just make the decision to remove it Himself if He was the Father going by a different name? When He hung dying on the cross, why did He ask His Father to forgive His murderers? Was it really the Father speaking, pretending to be Jesus? Why did He ask His Father why He'd forsaken Him? It would have been impossible for the Father to have forsaken Himself.

I am not sure what is causing your confusion. Most people get confused because they try to relate to God as though He were human. He is not and the analogies won't work.

I don't know why you ask this question again. The answer was "yes" before and still is. Why do you find it strange that God prays? Is not God the originator of the concept of prayer? Is not the object of prayer to seek that which is not to become what is desired. Jesus already knows that He has to go to the cross. Our will is not predetermined. There was always a chance that the Sanhedrin would have relented at the last minute but that chance was extremely slim.

As above God would have to revert our will and He has never been willing to do that. As for escaping, that does not settle the issue and the purpose of God was to settle the issue.

As is often the case Jesus is working with perceptions. The "them" that Jesus is asking for forgiveness believe in the Father but they do not believe in Jesus. If Jesus offered them forgiveness they would not have perceived it as coming from God.

This is just a quote of the first verse of a psalm which prophetically speaks of the events of the crucifixion. Jesus is pointing out the fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[OverStandIng]

You're going down the same slope I did in the beginning. It's not that they are adding to the scripture with these vesers it's that they are interpreting the information to mean something that is not there. Surely trinitarians will have an answer to your question. One of them is Yeshua was bound the same physical laws we mere humans are bound to so one would expect him to pray. this is incorrect due to the fact the scriptures say Yeshua was able to walk on water, turn water into wine, calm the storm and feed the multitude. This person surely was not bound by physical laws like us.

In that list of verses presented the Poster says "Words of Jesus" and if you noticed he cites Isaiah. This is incorrect. This is not Yeshua speaking. So he is misquoting here. John 10:33 is not Yeshua. The people accused him of making himself a God but as we read furthure Yeshua says;

10:34
Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, YOU blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Here we see Yeshua had to correct them. He was not trying to say he was God or equal himself with God. He merely said he was blessed by his god. The god that sent him into the world and that he was the son of God. There's nothing here to suggest he is God. This was a misinterpretation on the behalf of the Poster.


The poster goes on to list the "Attributes of God" and list omniscience. He proceeds to list quotes Yeshua made on earth to show that Yeshua was God. This again is a mis-reprensentation of Yeshua. If he is God in the flesh and the verses he posted were to show he is omniscient then can he explain this verse for us....?


Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Matthew
21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

What I'm saying here is if we are to consider, from what the Poster submits as evidence of omniscience, Yeshua to be God then these passages will need clarification because if he is God then he is ignorant of the day and hour and if we are to consider him God in the flesh then surely God would have known the seasons and knew it was not time for that tree to bare fruit. and if he did he wouldn't have cursed the tree.

The Poster tries to use the fact that Yeshua performed (miracles). This isn't a convincing argument. There were others in the scriptures that performed miracles including raising the dead. So Yeshua was not the only one. So this argument too fails. He presented it and said it was "OVERWHELMING EDVIDECE"........But we can clearly see that it's all wishful thinking and misintepretation.

The other claim they make is that he is God the son. First, this is not backed by scripture. They can't find amongst the 4 gospels Yeshua claiming to be God nor can information be found that the followers considered him God. Second, John 6:38 renders the theory of him being God void. In order to be sent there must be a sender. This would mean Yeshua is not God nor equal to God. Additionally, God does not have two wills.

Let Me Make Easy For You .


There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Let Me Make Easy For You .


There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .

I agree......

I think we are both in agreement here. For me John 6:38 seals the deal and refutes trinity......

 

[OverStandIng]

I agree......

I think we are both in agreement here. For me John 6:38 seals the deal and refutes trinity......

I Can Deal With That

 

[athanasius]

Is Jesus God in the flesh?

Answer: Of coarse he is! Especially if you beleive the Gospel of John and the Apostolic oral tradition given by the Apostles and passed down by the Fathers and ratified at the Holy councils!