Did Jesus say he was God???

[Katzpur]

I am not sure what is causing your confusion. Most people get confused because they try to relate to God as though He were human. He is not and the analogies won't work.

I relate to God -- or at least try to relate to Him -- as my Father in Heaven, as the Divine Being in whose image I was created. I am one of His offspring, and as far as I've always known, offspring resemble their parents.

I don't know why you ask this question again. The answer was "yes" before and still is. Why do you find it strange that God prays? Is not God the originator of the concept of prayer? Is not the object of prayer to seek that which is not to become what is desired. Jesus already knows that He has to go to the cross. Our will is not predetermined. There was always a chance that the Sanhedrin would have relented at the last minute but that chance was extremely slim.

I don't find it strange that God prays. I find it strange that He would pray to Himself. I believe that for a brief time, Jesus' will and His Father's will were not the same. That's why He said, "Not my will, but thine be done." I'm not arguing against the divinity of Jesus Christ. I'm arguing against the concept that He and His Father are both part of a single substance.

As above God would have to revert our will and He has never been willing to do that. As for escaping, that does not settle the issue and the purpose of God was to settle the issue.

You kind of lost me here, Muffled. I believe that Jesus was asking His Father if there was any other way by which the salvation of mankind might be accomplished. I believe He could have chosen not to go through with His atoning sacrifice, but had He done so, the will of His Father would have been thwarted. Because He always did the will of His Father, He accepted the bitter cup, even though He would have preferred there to be another way. Again I'm seeing two wills, which is something I believe would have been impossible had Jesus been the same individual as His Father.

As is often the case Jesus is working with perceptions. The "them" that Jesus is asking for forgiveness believe in the Father but they do not believe in Jesus. If Jesus offered them forgiveness they would not have perceived it as coming from God.

I see that, but this was a prayer, not merely something Jesus did to convince His murderers of something. If He and His Father were the same Divine Being, a prayer would have been unnecessary. As it was, Jesus was appealing to His God for something.

This is just a quote of the first verse of a psalm which prophetically speaks of the events of the crucifixion. Jesus is pointing out the fulfillment of prophecy.

The fact that it was a fulfillment of prophesy is beside the point. If Jesus believed His Father had forsaken Him, as I believe He did, they would have had to be two distinct beings. A single substance that cannot be divided cannot forsake itself.

 

[OverStandIng]

I relate to God -- or at least try to relate to Him -- as my Father in Heaven, as the Divine Being in whose image I was created. I am one of His offspring, and as far as I've always known, offspring resemble their parents.

I don't find it strange that God prays. I find it strange that He would pray to Himself. I believe that for a brief time, Jesus' will and His Father's will were not the same. That's why He said, "Not my will, but thine be done." I'm not arguing against the divinity of Jesus Christ. I'm arguing against the concept that He and His Father are both part of a single substance.


You kind of lost me here, Muffled. I believe that Jesus was asking His Father if there was any other way by which the salvation of mankind might be accomplished. I believe He could have chosen not to go through with His atoning sacrifice, but had He done so, the will of His Father would have been thwarted. Because He always did the will of His Father, He accepted the bitter cup, even though He would have preferred there to be another way. Again I'm seeing two wills, which is something I believe would have been impossible had Jesus been the same individual as His Father.


I see that, but this was a prayer, not merely something Jesus did to convince His murderers of something. If He and His Father were the same Divine Being, a prayer would have been unnecessary. As it was, Jesus was appealing to His God for something.


The fact that it was a fulfillment of prophesy is beside the point. If Jesus believed His Father had forsaken Him, as I believe He did, they would have had to be two distinct beings. A single substance that cannot be divided cannot forsake itself.

Exactly Which One Persons Is In The Image Of God ?

 

[Katzpur]

Exactly Which One Persons Is In The Image Of God ?

I am and Jesus Christ is.

 

[OverStandIng]

I am and Jesus Christ is.

Wrong Answer

 

[credance]

Jesus is not a God, his divinity cannot be proven and scripture is suspect at best. oFor all we know he was a talented carpenter and a famous man who did good things fr his society and ticked off the Romans.

Unrelated: It would be magical if he really did turn water into wine, free alcohol

I am sure that he was a very talented carpenter and you have to admit turning all that water into to wine was a pretty good party trick. However when He started healing life long infirmities and raising people from the dead it had to get peoples attention.
I can visualize the mob mentality when they rejected Him even as witnesses of His testimony. Death was His most human event. It should not be sugar coated and said that Judas took His place. Judas had his own cross to bear.

 

[Katzpur]

Wrong Answer

Thank you for correcting me. You know how highly I value your opinion.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I relate to God -- or at least try to relate to Him -- as my Father in Heaven, as the Divine Being in whose image I was created. I am one of His offspring, and as far as I've always known, offspring resemble their parents.

Wrong Answer

For the most part "WE" are in agreement. All of Muffled's quotes have been addressed. He may not like the answers that were given but they have been addressed. There are a few verses that can't be explained by trinitarian dogma. I posed a few questions back in post 783 (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1028941-post783.html) If he cared to answer them he would have. These quotes express Yeshua's nature in heaven and none of them have anything to do with him being God. Kat you are correct.....Two will does not make one God. Yeshua clearly expresses this in John 6:38. Additionally Matthew 28:18 reveals he had to be given power (in heaven and in earth). I have spoken with a few people who believe Yeshua to be God and they quote something that is supposed to be straight forward and in black and white but when I give them a simple quote like John 6:38.....oh now it needs to be interpreted. Yeshua did not teach his followers he was God nor did they believe he was.

John 11:22
But I know, that even now, whatever you will ask of God, God will give you.


Matthew
16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16:16 And Simon Kepha answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

16:17 And Yeshua answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[OverStandIng]

Thank you for correcting me. You know how highly I value your opinion.

Why shouldn't I God John 10 ; 34-35 lololololol

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Is Jesus God in the flesh?

Answer: Of coarse he is! Especially if you beleive the Gospel of John and the Apostolic oral tradition given by the Apostles and passed down by the Fathers and ratified at the Holy councils!

Did the gospel of John express Yeshua to be God?

Nope...


Where there oral traditions given by men claiming Yeshua to be God?

Yep...It wasn't until after the death of Yeshua men began to teach this.


Were they correct?

Nope...Especially if you read the gospel of John.

 

[Muffled]

I am sure that he was a very talented carpenter and you have to admit turning all that water into to wine was a pretty good party trick. However when He started healing life long infirmities and raising people from the dead it had to get peoples attention.
I can visualize the mob mentality when they rejected Him even as witnesses of His testimony. Death was His most human event. It should not be sugar coated and said that Judas took His place. Judas had his own cross to bear.

I have another verse that shows Jesus equated Himself with God:

Joh 5:39Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;

The scriptures mentioned have to be the Tenach since the New Testament hadn't been written yet. The one person who is talked about throughout scripture is God. Therefore Jesus is saying that He is God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I have another verse that shows Jesus equated Himself with God:

Joh 5:39Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;

The scriptures mentioned have to be the Tenach since the New Testament hadn't been written yet. The one person who is talked about throughout scripture is God. Therefore Jesus is saying that He is God.

This, again, is INCORRECT..... God has always talked about raising up and sending messengers and prophets.....

You seem to work soley on your interpretations as to what the scriptures are implying but time and time again we see they are explicitly saying the opposite.

John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish,the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Who was the sender? God...Who was sent?.... Yeshua....What was he sent to do?....God's will

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Who did the giving?...God.....Who received?...Yeshua.....Who's greater.....God is greater than ALL....Surely he can't be greater than Yeshua because Yeshua is, as you assert, is God?????.....Observe John 14:28

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Who's the servant?...Yeshua....Who's his master?.....his god.....and since we know he was sent he is not greater than his god that sent him.


John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Who is the father?....God.....who's greater than Yeshua?.....his god.....

Are they equal?...NOPE....Why not?

John6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

So no......Yeshua has never said or suggested he was equal to his god. If you observe before and after John 5:39 he gives all the glory to his god that sent him. To be sent one must have a sender.

 

[athanasius]

Did the gospel of John express Yeshua to be God?

Nope...


Where there oral traditions given by men claiming Yeshua to be God?

Yep...It wasn't until after the death of Yeshua men began to teach this.


Were they correct?

Nope...Especially if you read the gospel of John.

Thats funny. Most biblical scholars(Catholic and protestant) will cite example after example in John's Gospel showing Jesus to be equated with God. But there is much more in other biblical books too. Peter who was Jesus' hand picked prime minister and leader of the infant church also declares Christ to be God in his letters in the bible. However John is the most blatant, specially Chapters 1 and 8. The oral apostolic traditions of the apostles handed down to the fathers express that Jesus was God. St Ignatius of Antioch a handpicked apostle of St John himself proclaimed Jesus to be God. So history is against you as well as scripture. Even pagan and Jewish sources pick up on this. But you may beleive as you will.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Thats funny.

I knew you would chucke at it....

Most biblical scholars(Catholic and protestant) will cite example after example in John's Gospel showing Jesus to be equated with God.

For a minute there I thought you were going to say ALL. Whew....there's still hope. There are still scholars who refute the scriptures ever showing Yeshua claiming to be God.

But there is much more in other biblical books too.

Are you referring to the books of the NT beyond the 4 gospels? I recently downloaded a video where the commentator (who is a christian) examines a book that the church, (Library of the Greek Patriarch) called (The Teaching), has in their posession wherein the book they (Yeshua's family members and followers) did not view Yeshua to be God and referred to Yeshua as God's Servant.

Peter who was Jesus' hand picked prime minister and leader of the infant church also declares Christ to be God in his letters in the bible.

Can you list book chapter and verse so that I can study it? I've read them and I don't see that quote. I have an idea which one you're going to give me but I'm not sure.

Additionally, if Peter is so important, as you seem to be suggesting here, then why isn't the church quoting from the "Apocalypse of Peter"......??

It's kind of weird that church leaders deemed it as scripture but no one quotes from it. Clement of Alexandria regards the Apocalypse of Peter as Holy Scriptures (cf. Euseb. HE VI 14.1)


The Apocalypse of Peter

"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

To each his own I guess....

However John is the most blatant, specially Chapters 1 and 8.

Well I beleive Yeshua to be the word of his god (God's amabassasdor and mouthpiece who was taught and commanded to bring the word of God to the people) Luke 24:19 ....."Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people". John 8, from what I can tell says nothing of Yeshua being God or claiming to be God. We can post quotes from John til we are blue in the face and it still won't get us anywhere. For kicks and giggles we can start with John 3:34 and John 6:38 if you prefer.

The oral apostolic traditions of the apostles handed down to the fathers express that Jesus was God.

And we have other oral traditions that expressed Yeshua was not God. Are we going to start quoting all those that came after Yeshua rendering their opinion as to the nature of Yeshua (some or most who never met him) becaue I'm sure we can go on and on as to who believed what back then?

 

[Popeyesays]

Thats funny. Most biblical scholars(Catholic and protestant) will cite example after example in John's Gospel showing Jesus to be equated with God.

And they are all wrong--proven through the actual words of Jesus, who denies any such equation.

They are trying to weigh the scripture with their own faulty unde3rstanding.

"Unto every discerning observer it is evident and manifest that had these people in the days of each of the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth sanctified their eyes, their ears, and their hearts from whatever they
had seen, heard, and felt, they surely would not have been deprived of beholding the beauty of God, nor strayed far from the habitations of glory. But having weighed the testimony of God by the standard of their own knowledge , gleaned from the teachings of the leaders of their faith, and found it at variance with their limited understanding, they arose to perpetrate such unseemly acts. Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people." Baha`u'llah, Kitabi Iqan (Book of Certitude), pp 10-11

Regards,

Scott

 

[Muffled]

And they are all wrong--proven through the actual words of Jesus, who denies any such equation.

They are trying to weigh the scripture with their own faulty unde3rstanding.

"Unto every discerning observer it is evident and manifest that had these people in the days of each of the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth sanctified their eyes, their ears, and their hearts from whatever they
had seen, heard, and felt, they surely would not have been deprived of beholding the beauty of God, nor strayed far from the habitations of glory. But having weighed the testimony of God by the standard of their own knowledge , gleaned from the teachings of the leaders of their faith, and found it at variance with their limited understanding, they arose to perpetrate such unseemly acts. Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people." Baha`u'llah, Kitabi Iqan (Book of Certitude), pp 10-11

Regards,

Scott

This is only true from the standpoint of you finding fault in my understanding. You have not once been able to prove that my reasoning is falacious.

 

[Muffled]

God never wanted Israel to have a king other than Himself. Jesus is sent to be King of Israel not to be another human king but to be the God King.

Jesus talked about the Kingdom of God and said that it was His (Jesus's) kingdom which by name is also God's kingdom. THerefore Jesus is God.

 

[lew0049]

This is going to be my last post about this topic as I will try to explain all of the reasons why I believe Jesus to be God in the flesh. If you do not agree with me or my views on the matter then I’m sorry, for this post will just include reasons why I think Jesus = God. I will say this though, I am very confident that many of you are like me in a sense (although I try not to be): instead of actually absorbing what other people say, our immediate inclination is to think of ways to discount what is being said. After stating this, I will say that what I say is not meant to “win” a debate because winning a debate would mean that I won people over to my side, something that is nearly impossible b/c words cannot change one’s mentality or thought process. Also, instead of trying to explain things in my words, I probably will directly quote authors that I find insightful. To simplify things, I’m just going to make a list:

• I’ll admit when you read the Bible, many times Jesus proclaims “My Father” and numerous other things that seem to indicate, not someone, but something that is in a position of more authority than Him. I am sorry, but I cannot think of God as being ‘someone’ like we think of humans.
• In many instances, various passages identify God as being a hidden God. One that you must seek out. This does not mean that anyone will ever fully find Him or for that matter are supposed too b/c then wouldn’t we be nearly like God?
• Now, before I read the Bible and analyze what was written, I feel that if the Bible is accurately describing God, then there will be things that I cannot understand – I am not capable of it. Obviously, God is not of this world hence we do not share the same dimensions or perspective as Him. Therefore, if there is something describing who he is to us, how can I (in our 3D world) understand something that is being explained regarding something from another world or dimension. Logically, I don’t believe I can – if you think you can then great.
• I know some might not want to read the following but I hope you do. Even if you do not like C.S Lewis, try to read the following because I think he addresses an important issue regarding God and He not being in Time like us. Why is an issue like this important? Because if we are to correctly analyze something – it helps if you approach the subject from the right perspective. If we are to use quotes from the Bible about God, like many of us have done, our approach should be correct:

If you picture Time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the whole page on which the line is drawn. We come to the parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A behind before we get to B, and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all round, contains the whole line, and sees it all.
The idea is worth trying to grasp because it removes some apparent difficulties in Christianity. Before I became a Christian one of my objections was as follows. The Christians said that the eternal God who is everywhere and keeps the whole universe going, once became a human being. Well then, said 1, how did the whole universe keep going while He was a baby, or while He was asleep? How could He at the same time be God who knows everything and also a man asking his disciples "who touched me?" You will notice that the sting lay in the time words: "While He was a baby" --"How could He at the same time?" In other words I was assuming that Christ's life as God was in time, and that His life as the man Jesus in Palestine was a shorter period taken out of that time--just as my service in the army was a shorter period taken out of my total life. And that is how most of us perhaps tend to think about it. We picture God living through a period when His human life was still in the future: then coming to a period when it was present: then going on to a period when He could look back on it as something in the past. But probably these ideas correspond to nothing in the actual facts. You cannot fit Christ's earthly life in Palestine into any time-relations with His life as God beyond all space and time. It is really, I suggest, a timeless truth about God that human nature, and the human experience of weakness and sleep and ignorance, are somehow included in His whole divine life. This human life in God is from our point of view a particular period in the history of our world (from the year A.D. one till the Crucifixion). We therefore imagine it is also a period in the history of God's own existence. But God has no history. He is too completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing part of your reality (because it had already slipped away into the past) and not yet having another part (because it is still in the future): in fact having nothing but the tiny little present, which has gone before you can speak about it. God forbid we should think God was like that. Even we may hope not to be always rationed in that way.
Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday, He simply sees you doing them: because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow, He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way--because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action tin you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.
This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it alone. It is a "Christian idea" in the sense that great and wise Christians have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity. But it is not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian without accepting it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all.Regardless if you like or believe what C.S Lewis has written, the guy is unbelievable at articulating his thoughts.
5. Okay, I am going to quote C.S Lewis one more time and this directly relates to the issue of Jesus being God. Part of me wants explain the following in my own words b/c I’m afraid anyone reading might skip it over but he explains my thoughts more clearly.
But as soon as you look at any real Christian writings, you find that they are talking about something quite different from this popular religion. They say that Christ is the Son of God (whatever that means). They say that those who give Him their confidence can also become Sons of God (whatever that means). They say that His death saved us from our sins (whatever that means).
There is no good complaining that these statements are difficult. Christianity claims to be telling us about another world, about something behind the world we can touch and hear and see. You may think the claim false; but if it were true, what it tells us would be bound to be difficult-at least as difficult as modern Physics, and for the same reason.
Now the point in Christianity which gives us the greatest shock is the statement that by attaching ourselves to Christ, we can `become Sons of God'. One asks `Aren't we Sons of God already?

 

[lew0049]

Surely the fatherhood of God is one of the main Christian ideas?' Well, in a certain sense, no doubt we are sons of God already. I mean, God has brought us into existence and loves us and looks after us, and in that way is like a father. But when the Bible talks of our `becoming' Sons of God, obviously it must mean something different. And that brings us up against the very centre of Theology.

One of the creeds says that Christ is the Son of God 'begotten, not created'; and it adds `begotten by his Father before all worlds'. Will you please get it quite clear that this has .nothing to do with the fact that when Christ was born on earth as a man, that man was the son of a virgin? We are not now thinking about the Virgin Birth. We are thinking about something that happened before Nature was created at all, before time began. `Before all worlds' Christ is begotten, not created. What does it mean?

We don't use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set-or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set : say, a statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one. It cannot breathe or think. It is not alive.
Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God.

A statue has the shape of a man but is not alive. In the same way, man has (in a sense I am going to explain) the `shape' or likeness of God, but he has not got the kind of life God has. Let us take the first point (man's resemblance to God) first. Everything God has made has some likeness to Himself. Space is like Him in its hugeness: not that the greatness of space is the same kind of greatness as God's, but it is a sort of symbol of it, or a translation of it into non-spiritual terms. Matter is like God in having energy: though, again, of course, physical energy is a different kind of thing from the power of God. The vegetable world is like Him because it is alive, and He is the 'living God'. But life, in this biological sense, is not the same as the life there is in God: it is only a kind of symbol or shadow of it. When we come on to the animals, we find other kinds of resemblance in addition to biological life. The intense activity and fertility of the insects, for example, is a first dim resemblance to the unceasing activity and the creativeness of God. In the higher mammals we get the beginnings of instinctive affection. That is not the same thing as the love that exists in God: but it is like it - rather in the way that a picture drawn on a flat piece of paper can nevertheless be `like' a landscape. When we come to man, the highest of the animals, we get the completest resemblance to God which we know of. (There may be creatures in other worlds who are more like God than man is, but we do not know about them.) Man not only lives, but loves and reasons: biological life reaches its highest known level in him.


6. Last C.S Lewis quote:

Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all—to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.

But supposing God became a man—suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person—then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not. I have heard some people complain that if Jesus was God as well as man, then His sufferings and death lose all value in their eyes, "because it must have been so easy for him." Others may (very rightly) rebuke the ingratitude and ungraciousness of this objection; what staggers me is the misunderstanding it betrays. In one sense, of course, those who make it are right. They have even understated their own case. The perfect submission, the perfect suffering, the perfect death were not only easier to Jesus because He was God, but were possible only because He was God. But surely that is a very odd reason for not accepting them? The teacher is able to for the letters for the child because the teacher is grown-up and knows how to write. That, of course, makes it easier for the teacher; and only because it is easier for him can he help the child. If it rejected him because "it's easy for grown-ups" and waited to learn writing from another child who could not write itself (and so had no "unfair" advantage), it would not get on very quickly. If I am drowning in a rapid river, a man who still has one foot on the bank may give me a hand which saves my life. Ought I to shout back (between my gasps) "No, its not fair!" You have an advantage! You're keeping one foot on the bank"? That advantage--call it "unfair" if you like--is the only reason why he can be of any use to me. To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself?

1. Much of what I have either quoted or stated in the above is a very important factor when analyzing the Bible, specifically the relationship between the Father and the Son. Obviously, this relationship does not mean the father and son that we are accustomed to in our society. I am sorry but I can logically only invision ONE creator, ONE being that has always been, ONE being. Think about this reasoning, why would God have to or want to send his Son (who is not God) to pay the ultimate sacrifice of death for the sins of mankind? Of course he would not send someone or something else, b/c He is the being that is chiefly concerned. And he is capable of doing it because he is outside of Time and He is the creator of all things. Anyone of claims that God is incapable of becoming a man is claiming to know the capabilities and/or characteristics of God. I have heard some, I believe Popeyesays, say that it is impossible because of the capabilities of man and not God. But since God created man, this argument completely falls apart (sorry Scott, not singling you out.).
2. Basically, what I am saying is that if we are to know the true relationship between The Father and the Son, we must look at what characteristics each possess. Just because many times in the Bible we see that Jesus is praying to the Father does not indicate that the Father is another Being – it is simply a title. A title that is given from something outside of our world, so obviously it has a different meaning. If you don’t see the logic I am using here then I’m sorry. I mean look at it, if God is outside of Time, then Jesus could perfectly well pray to God (not in human form). From God’s perspective there is no time, but from man’s view we are controlled by a time function - Jesus states that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

 

[lew0049]

Revelation 1:8 [KJV] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:17 [KJV] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Joshua 10:12-14 [KJV] Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.
Exodus 10:21 - 23 [KJV] And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
2 Kings 20:11 [KJV] And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

I did not go into Biblical scripture as many verses have already been posted, and seem less important to the issue of Jesus equaling God. If you add the above information together with the fact that never in the Bible do you see Jesus saying he is not God, it becomes even more so apparent to me that Jesus is God. I fully understand why many think he is not, but the sole purpose of this post is to show reasons why I believe Jesus to be God. Anyways, have a good day. J

 

[lew0049]

And they are all wrong--proven through the actual words of Jesus, who denies any such equation.

They are trying to weigh the scripture with their own faulty unde3rstanding.

"Unto every discerning observer it is evident and manifest that had these people in the days of each of the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth sanctified their eyes, their ears, and their hearts from whatever they
had seen, heard, and felt, they surely would not have been deprived of beholding the beauty of God, nor strayed far from the habitations of glory. But having weighed the testimony of God by the standard of their own knowledge , gleaned from the teachings of the leaders of their faith, and found it at variance with their limited understanding, they arose to perpetrate such unseemly acts. Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people." Baha`u'llah, Kitabi Iqan (Book of Certitude), pp 10-11

Regards,

Scott

Wrong Scott, Jesus never denies being God. Just because He refers to the Father does NOT mean that Jesus ever denied being God.