Did Jesus say he was God???

[Popeyesays]

Wrong Scott, Jesus never denies being God. Just because He refers to the Father does NOT mean that Jesus ever denied being God.

I refer to you, Lew. That does not mean I am you. In fact by referring to you as separate from me, I am saying I am NOT you.

Jesus said He was not God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Lew,

Jesus is the first and the last Messenger at the same time. So was Moses in His time. They are in one sense One and the Same, and in another sense They are separate beings.

The language of the Apocalypse was never meant to be literal truth, it is Spiritual Truth contained within metaphor, you have to work for it, dude.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

I refer to you, Lew. That does not mean I am you. In fact by referring to you as separate from me, I am saying I am NOT you.

Jesus said He was not God.

Regards,
Scott

Refer to the longer post I made made earlier today Scott.

 

[lew0049]

Lew,

Jesus is the first and the last Messenger at the same time. So was Moses in His time. They are in one sense One and the Same, and in another sense They are separate beings.

The language of the Apocalypse was never meant to be literal truth, it is Spiritual Truth contained within metaphor, you have to work for it, dude.

Regards,
Scott

I really can't respond to this Scott b/c I have no clue how you came to this conclusion. No offense man, but since you used to be a "Christian" and maybe know where I coming from when I say this, but don't you find some of the viewpoints of the Bahi faith so incredibly far fetched? Like, I can see how the religion can be attractive b/c of the unity aspect, but on some of the matters, I really don't even know where to begin or how to respond. I use the term religion loosely b/c it is man made. Thus, many parts of Christianity & its followers are flawed, but essentially, I would rather follow the words of the living over the dead.

Also, here is some more insight that I just found in my notes, again from C.S Lewis - try to read it with an open mind and tell me what you think.
-Chip

***MOD EDIT***

The following is from C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, page 50 and following.

That is the key to history. Terrific energy is expended-civilisations are built up--excellent institutions devised; but each time something goes wrong. Some fatal flaw always brings the selfish and cruel people to the top and it all slides back into misery and ruin. In fact, the machine conks. It seems to start up all right and runs a few yards, and then it breaks down. They are trying to run it on the wrong juice. That is what Satan has done to us humans.

And what did God do? First of all He left us conscience, the sense of right and wrong: and all through history there have been people trying (some of them very hard) to obey it. None of them ever quite succeeded. Secondly, He sent the human race what I call good dreams: I mean those queer stories scattered all through the heathen religions about a god who dies and comes to life again and by his death, has somehow given new life to men. Thirdly, He selected one particular people and spent several centuries hammering into their heads the sort of God He was--that there was only one of Him and that He cared about right conduct. Those people were the Jews, and the Old Testament gives an account of the hammering process.

Then comes the real shock. Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world, who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.

One part of the claim tends to slip past us unnoticed because we have heard it so often that we no longer see what it amounts to. I mean the claim to forgive sins: any sins. Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offences against himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men's toes and stealing other men's money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God, these words would imply what I can only regard as a silliness and conceit unrivalled by any other character in history.

Yet (and this is the strange, significant thing) even His enemies, when they read the Gospels, do not usually get the impression of silliness and conceit. Still less so unprejudiced readers. Christ says that He is 'humble and meek' and we believe Him; not noticing that, if He were merely a man, humility and meekness are the very last characteristics we could attribute to some of His sayings.

 

[Popeyesays]

Lew,

I agree quite a bit with Mr. Lewis. But this is not the first time I have read that--or Lewis for that matter.
I'm about 60.5 years of age. Lewis is quite well knownto me.

I'll be back in a little bit with a quote from the Baha`i writings that says much the same thing Mr. Lewis says.

Okay, back with the quote:
"Progress is of two kinds, material and spiritual. The former is attained through observation of the surrounding existence and constitutes the foundation of civilization. Spiritual progress is through the breaths of the Holy Spirit and is the awakening of the conscious soul of man to perceive the reality of divinity. Material progress insures the happiness of the human world. Spiritual progress insures the happiness and eternal continuance of the soul. The prophets of God have founded the laws of divine civilization. They have been the root and fundamental source of all knowledge. They have established the principles of human brotherhood or fraternity which is of various kinds, such as the fraternity of family, of race, of nation and of ethical motives. These forms of fraternity, these bonds of brotherhood are merely temporal and transient in association. They do not insure harmony and are usually productive of disagreement. They do not prevent warfare and strife; on the contrary they are selfish, restricted and fruitful causes of enmity and hatred among mankind. The spiritual brotherhood which is enkindled and established through the breaths of the Holy Spirit unites nations and removes the cause of warfare and strife. It transforms mankind into one great family and establishes the foundations of the oneness of humanity. It promulgates the spirit of international agreement and insures Universal Peace. Therefore we must investigate the foundation reality of this heavenly fraternity. We must forsake all imitations and promote the reality of the divine teachings. In accordance with these principles and actions and by the assistance of the Holy Spirit, both material and spiritual happiness shall become realized. Until all nations and peoples become united by the bonds of the Holy Spirit in this real fraternity, until national and international prejudices are effaced in the reality of this spiritual brotherhood, true progress, prosperity and lasting happiness will not be attained by man. This is the century of new and universal nationhood. Sciences have advanced, industries have progressed, politics have been reformed, liberty has been proclaimed, 228 justice is awakening. This is the century of motion, divine stimulus and accomplishment; the century of human solidarity and altruistic service; the century of Universal Peace and the reality of the divine kingdom."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 227)
------------

As to the Baha`i Faith being man-made? Nonsense.




Regards,
Scott



Regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

Although the quote you gave sounds inspirational here are the problems I have w/ it and the Baha faith in general:

1. I don't believe the world being united by the bonds of the Holy Spirit have anything to do with the message of Jesus and our his teachings. Although I will say that the concept of peace and unity in general, are great ideas.

2. Baha'l'llah claimed to be the return of Christ, yet he performed no miracles. Now, I'm sure you will either say that he did this or did that, but as far as I know he performed absolutely zero miracles, in the supernatural sense of course. The other argument that I have seen used is that Jesus really performed no miracles. Well, as far as this goes, from all of the evidence I have gathered, the gospel writters should be considered reliable. Also, Jesus states that when he returns he will return with even greater power and authority than before, but that definitely was not seen with Baha'l'llah - this is a fact.

2. The teachings of Jesus and Muhammad are vastly different Scott. You can say that they we only given information from the Holy Spirit to reveal at that particular times, but this information should not contradicate each other and it does. The Holy Spirit does not change even if societies do. The teachings of Jesus and Muhammad are clearly contradictory on the most basic of issues, Scott. And since they are, to be blunt, they cannot both be messengers from God in my eyes.

-Chip

 

[Popeyesays]

Although the quote you gave sounds inspirational here are the problems I have w/ it and the Baha faith in general:

1. I don't believe the world being united by the bonds of the Holy Spirit have anything to do with the message of Jesus and our his teachings. Although I will say that the concept of peace and unity in general, are great ideas.

2. Baha'l'llah claimed to be the return of Christ, yet he performed no miracles. Now, I'm sure you will either say that he did this or did that, but as far as I know he performed absolutely zero miracles, in the supernatural sense of course. The other argument that I have seen used is that Jesus really performed no miracles. Well, as far as this goes, from all of the evidence I have gathered, the gospel writters should be considered reliable. Also, Jesus states that when he returns he will return with even greater power and authority than before, but that definitely was not seen with Baha'l'llah - this is a fact.

2. The teachings of Jesus and Muhammad are vastly different Scott. You can say that they we only given information from the Holy Spirit to reveal at that particular times, but this information should not contradicate each other and it does. The Holy Spirit does not change even if societies do. The teachings of Jesus and Muhammad are clearly contradictory on the most basic of issues, Scott. And since they are, to be blunt, they cannot both be messengers from God in my eyes.

-Chip

As to statement 1:
"12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

"4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

I Thessalonians

"2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(King James Bible, Ephesians)

"51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

(King James Bible, Psalms)

"86 Such are those who buy the life of the world at the price of the Hereafter. Their punishment will not be lightened, neither will they have support.

87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay ?

88 And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe."

Quran (Pickthall tr), Surah 2 "The Cow"

TBC


Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Continued:
As to Point #2 aBOVE:

Miracles prove nothing other than to those who experience the miracle directly. Abdu'l Baha relates a well-known story about Baha`u'llah and those who demanded miracles of Him:

"It often happened that in Baghdad certain Muhammadan 'ulama, Jewish rabbis and Christians met together with some European scholars, in a blessed Reunion: each one had some question to propose, and although they were 29 possessed of varying degrees of culture, they each heard a sufficient and convincing reply, and retired satisfied. Even the Persian 'ulama who were at Karbila and Najaf chose a wise man whom they sent on a mission to Him; his name was Mulla Hasan 'Amu. He came into the Holy Presence, and proposed a number of questions on behalf of the 'ulama, to which Bahá'u'lláh replied. Then Hasan 'Amu said, "The 'ulama recognize without hesitation and confess the knowledge and virtue of Bahá'u'lláh, and they are unanimously convinced that in all learning he has no peer or equal; and it is also evident that he has never studied or acquired this learning; but still the 'ulama say, 'We are not contented with this; we do not acknowledge the reality of his mission by virtue of his wisdom and righteousness. Therefore, we ask him to show us a miracle in order to satisfy and tranquilize our hearts.'"

Bahá'u'lláh replied, "Although you have no right to ask this, for God should test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow and accept this request. But the Cause of God is not a theatrical display that is presented every hour, of which some new diversion may be asked for every day. If it were thus, the Cause of God would become mere child's play.

"The ulamas must, therefore, assemble, and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that, after the performance of this miracle they will no longer entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if not, We shall be convicted of imposture." The learned man, Hasan 'Amu, rose and replied, "There is no more to be said"; he then kissed the knee of the Blessed One although he was not a believer, and went. He gathered the 'ulama and gave them the sacred message. They consulted 30 together and said, "This man is an enchanter; perhaps he will perform an enchantment, and then we shall have nothing more to say." Acting on this belief, they did not dare to push the matter further.[1]
[1 The penetrating judgment of Bahá'u'lláh upon this occasion overcame the malignity of His enemies, who, it was certain, would never agree in choosing what miracle to ask for.]

This man, Hasan 'Amu, mentioned this fact at many meetings. After leaving Karbila he went to Kirmanshah and Tihran and spread a detailed account of it everywhere, laying emphasis on the fear and the withdrawal of the 'ulama.

Briefly, all His adversaries in the Orient acknowledged His greatness, grandeur, knowledge and virtue; and though they were His enemies, they always spoke of Him as "the renowned Bahá'u'lláh.""

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 28)

The teachings of Jesus and Muhammed are essentially the same.
"Therefore it is our duty to put forth our greatest efforts and summon all our energies in order that the bonds of unity and accord may be established among mankind. For thousands of years we have had bloodshed and strife. It is enough; it is sufficient. Now is the time to associate together in love and harmony. For thousands of years we have tried the sword and warfare; let mankind for a time at least live in peace. Review history and consider how much savagery, how much bloodshed and battle the world has witnessed. It has been either religious warfare, political warfare or some other 245 clash of human interests. The world of humanity has never enjoyed the blessing of Universal Peace. Year by year the implements of warfare have been increased and perfected. Consider the wars of past centuries; only ten, fifteen or twenty thousand at the most were killed but now it is possible to kill one hundred thousand in a single day. In ancient times warfare was carried on with the sword; today it is the smokeless gun. Formerly battleships were sailing vessels; today they are dreadnoughts. Consider the increase and improvement in the weapons of war. God has created us all human and all countries of the world are parts of the same globe. We are all his servants. He is kind and just to all. Why should we be unkind and unjust to each other? He provides for all. Why should we deprive one another? He protects and preserves all. Why should we kill our fellow-creatures? If this warfare and strife be for the sake of religion, it is evident that it violates the spirit and basis of all religion. All the divine Manifestations have proclaimed the oneness of God and the unity of mankind. They have taught that men should love and mutually help each other in order that they might progress. Now if this conception of religion be true, its essential principle is the oneness of humanity. The fundamental truth of the Manifestations is peace. This underlies all religion, all justice. The divine purpose is that men should live in unity, concord and agreement and should love one another. Consider the virtues of the human world and realize that the oneness of humanity is the primary foundation of them all. Read the Gospel and the other holy books. You will find their fundamentals are one and the same. Therefore unity is the essential truth of religion and when so understood embraces all the virtues of the human world. Praise be to God! this knowledge has been spread, eyes have been opened and ears have become attentive. Therefore we must endeavor to promulgate and practice the religion of God which has been founded by all the prophets. And the religion of God is absolute love and unity."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 244)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

As to statement 1:
"12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

"4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

I Thessalonians

"2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(King James Bible, Ephesians)

"51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

(King James Bible, Psalms)

"86 Such are those who buy the life of the world at the price of the Hereafter. Their punishment will not be lightened, neither will they have support.

87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay ?

88 And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe."

Quran (Pickthall tr), Surah 2 "The Cow"

TBC


Regards,
Scott

:clap....nice.........

 

[Muffled]

I refer to you, Lew. That does not mean I am you. In fact by referring to you as separate from me, I am saying I am NOT you.

Jesus said He was not God.

Regards,
Scott

Again you have the same problem. You think that God is like men that he is finite and there is only instance of God say in Heaven so He can't be here. However God is not finite; He is able to be Father in Heaven and Jesus here and still be one. And now He is able to be in all who receive Him throughout this world as well and still He is one.

 

[Popeyesays]

Again you have the same problem. You think that God is like men that he is finite and there is only instance of God say in Heaven so He can't be here. However God is not finite; He is able to be Father in Heaven and Jesus here and still be one. And now He is able to be in all who receive Him throughout this world as well and still He is one.

Please don't erect scarecrows.

You're putting words in my mouth, Muffled. I KNOW that GOd is beyond all description and without limitation. Man on the other hand is finite and limited.

"God is infinite; and as terms are finite, the nature of God cannot 301 be expressed in terms, but as man desires to express God in some way, he calls God "Love" and "Truth," because these are the highest things he knows. Life is eternal; so man, in order to express God's infinity, calls God "Life." But these things in themselves are not God. God is the Source of all, and all things that are, are mirrors reflecting His Glory."

(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 300)

Regards,
Scott

 

[namguy]

While I agree with you about the Divinity of Jesus.

To use Bible quotes to prove it, requires the reader to accept the Truth of the Bible.

This belief does not always exist.

I am very selective in my reading of the Bible and get more from the colour and the teachings of the Bible than the exactness of the translation or the actual words.

Jesus teachings were so new in the world, as compared to the Jewish norm, that their teaching and truth shine through.

Contrary wise some of Paul's teachings are so much like the teachings of a Jew of his time, that although moral issues are handled well, they often show little of the new reality that Jesus brought us.

Jesus speaks directly to our heart and soul.

Indeed, Jesus was Lord & Saviour in the Flesh:bow:

 

[namguy]

I agree with Terrywoodenpic and I will add that you say it is overwhelming evidence and then proceed to give the your evidence as hearsay. It would never hold up in court.

It doesn't matter what proof was shown to you, if that was possible, you wouldn't believe anyway:yes: so why even discuss it.

 

[Popeyesays]

Indeed, Jesus was Lord & Saviour in the Flesh:bow:

Actually, since you do not say Jesus was GOD, I can agree with your statement completely.:highfive:

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Again you have the same problem. You think that God is like men that he is finite and there is only instance of God say in Heaven so He can't be here. However God is not finite; He is able to be Father in Heaven and Jesus here and still be one. And now He is able to be in all who receive Him throughout this world as well and still He is one.

I'm sorry but that is not how the scriptures tell it.

God and Yeshua, In heaven are separate. Yeshua comfirms this in John 6:38. 8:28, 8:38, Matthew 28:18

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


John 8:28
.........I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John
8:38 I speak that which I have seen (with) my Father:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth

There is nothing in the four gospels that show Yeshua to be God or the God and Yesh

God and Yeshua are separate while on earth. Yeshua confirms this John 3:34, John 17:14, John 20:17, Mark 15:34

John
3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure.

John 17:14
I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.


John 20:17
........I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my god, and your god.

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, my god, my god, why have you left me?

There is nothing in the scriptures that show Yeshua to be God or that Yeshua are one in the same. Yeshua described it as a oneness in pupose just as the greek word being used is defined.

:sarcastic

 

[Francine]

There is nothing in the scriptures that show Yeshua to be God or that Yeshua are one in the same. Yeshua described it as a oneness in pupose just as the greek word being used is defined.

The Jews heard him correctly when he said he was YHWH, and they tried to kill him immediately.

John 8:[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Popeyesays]

The Jews heard him correctly when he said he was YHWH, and they tried to kill him immediately.

John 8:[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus was an expression of the Word of God, and as such He existed before Abraham PHYSICALLY existed. Abraham was also an expression of the Word of God, yet pre-existed His own physical life.

But an expression of the Word of God is not the EXPRESSOR of God's Word. The Expressor of His Own Word is God.

The Council of Nicaea was a COMPROMISE, not an absolute truth.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

DreGod: refer to post 857, 858, 858

 

[lew0049]

YouTube - Ravi Zacharias at Penn State University Q & A 1 of 6 - good insight 8 minutes

 

[lew0049]

As to statement 1:
"12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

"4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

I Thessalonians

"2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(King James Bible, Ephesians)

"51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

(King James Bible, Psalms)

"86 Such are those who buy the life of the world at the price of the Hereafter. Their punishment will not be lightened, neither will they have support.

87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay ?

88 And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe."

Quran (Pickthall tr), Surah 2 "The Cow"

TBC


Regards,
Scott

Blah, sorry I worded my comment incorrectly, I agree with the Biblicial statements above, but that is not, at all, what I feel the Baha faith is doing. Of course this is my personal opinion, but I believe the Baha faith is trying to find a way to unify the diverse faiths systems throughout the world by attempting to pick apart bits and pieces of each that are similiar. Yet when I truly look at many these religions/faiths, sure there are many forms of love and peace is each, but that is pretty much where it ends from my perspective.

And as far as the other two points I made about the Baha faith, could you give me your personal opinion if you will?
I say this because I believe that ANYONE who is looking for the truth on these issues and the trinity concept has to use our God given sense of logic and reason to properly analyze.
-Chip