Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

The Jews heard him correctly when he said he was YHWH, and they tried to kill him immediately.

John 8:[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I have dealt with that scripture time and time again. That scripture does not show Yeshua to be God nor was he claiming to be qual with God.

They were ticked off with him because they thought he was trying to say he was greater than their "father" Abraham. The question was asked;

John
8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

This is the clincher to understanding why they were ticked at him. After their question Yeshua answers them and gives all his glory to his god. (note: all in blue are mine)

8:54 Yeshua answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father (God) that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he (God) is your god:

He had not claimed to be God nor equal to God and lets them know that his god is the same as their god. He immediately gives credit (glory) to his god here.

8:55 Yet ye have not known him (MY god); but I (Yeshua) know him: (MY god) and if I (Yeshua) should say, I (Yeshua) know him (MY god) not, I (Yeshua) shall be a liar like unto you: but I (Yeshua) know him, (MY god) and keep his (MY god's) saying (word - commandment - logos).

No claims of God here either. He gives all glory to his god here.

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

8:58 Yeshua said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And all that verse means is he knew Abraham because he existed before the world was. Refer to: (John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.)

8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Yeshua hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

He was not invoking YHWH here at all nor did they think he was doing that. They wanted to stone him because their understanding was that he was greater than Abraham. They could not understand how this young man could even part from his lips he existed before their beloved Abraham or that he appeared, to them, to be claiming he was greater than Abraham. So that he would not get stoned and die Yeshua (ran away)............

 

[Dirty Penguin]

DreGod: refer to post 857, 858, 858

It's been dealt with already. Yeshua NEVER....Let me repeat....NEVER invoked YHWH there at all......

 

[Dirty Penguin]

YouTube - Ravi Zacharias at Penn State University Q & A 1 of 6 - good insight 8 minutes

Not so much good insight.... He has said NOTHING that has not been heard before from trinitarians or on this forum....or even in this thread.....

YouTube - Trinity In The Christian Belief - Shaykh Ahmad Deedat

Luke 2:22: And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord.


Even Mary had to be "purified" after giving birth to Yeshua. Was she defiled by giving birth to the God man...... and what "LORD" were they going to present Yeshua to if God was already here born of Mary?

 

[lew0049]

It's been dealt with already. Yeshua NEVER....Let me repeat....NEVER invoked YHWH there at all......

Umm, the only thing you have provided time and time again are verses that address Jesus speaking and praying to the Father. I'm not sure how that has been "dealt" with exactly. If you noticed in my post, I was breaking down the reasons why I believe Jesus is God, logically, and scripture was not really involved.

 

[lew0049]

Not so much good insight.... He has said NOTHING that has not been heard before from trinitarians or on this forum....or even in this thread.....

YouTube - Trinity In The Christian Belief - Shaykh Ahmad Deedat

Luke 2:22: And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord.


Even Mary had to be "purified" after giving birth to Yeshua. Was she defiled by giving birth to the God man...... and what "LORD" were they going to present Yeshua to if God was already here born of Mary?

Did you really read my earlier posts? Because this verse can be directly related to what Lewis states.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Umm, the only thing you have provided time and time again are verses that address Jesus speaking and praying to the Father. I'm not sure how that has been "dealt" with exactly. If you noticed in my post, I was breaking down the reasons why I believe Jesus is God, logically, and scripture was not really involved.

I can't remember how far back but I did deal with that verse. I actually dealt with it a little while ago when responding to Francine. I als listed quotes from thos who followed him. The words of his followers do not suggest they thought him to be God. If you only give your opinion then it is exactly that.....YOUR orpinion......When we are asked if Yeshua is God in the flesh the first place to look is the scripture. We can discern from his words and those of his followers he was not God nor did he claim to be nor did they take him to be.....The one time "The jews" claimed he was being a man but making himself to be God he immediately cleared it up and called himself the son of God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Did you really read my earlier posts? Because this verse can be directly related to what Lewis states.

I read what he said. It still fails to answer the question I asked. I chose not to comment because you said it was your last post on the subject. No need to branch off discussing his opinions if your weren't here to respond to them. Lewis, again, has said nothing new that most trinitarians haven't already said here. This is the only thing I'm going to say about his opinion........His hypothesis starts out weak...

CS Lewis
"But supposing God became a man......................... He could surrender His will"

How can God surrender his will? If God surrendered his will wouldn't that still be his will?????

That is just one of the reasons I looked passed what he had to say and remained silent. The others reasons are as I stated above....his opinion is nothing new and I saw no reason to go into lenghts discussing what he thought...

 

[Popeyesays]

I agree that Lewis is not always the best arguer. And his argument about the ability of God to give up His will is weak beyond bearing. The argument is at least better than Pascal's argument, by a notch or two, but it does not hold up to reason.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I agree that Lewis is not always the best arguer. And his argument about the ability of God to give up His will is weak beyond bearing. The argument is at least better than Pascal's argument, by a notch or two, but it does not hold up to reason.

Regards,
Scott

I totally agree......

 

[Muffled]

Umm, the only thing you have provided time and time again are verses that address Jesus speaking and praying to the Father. I'm not sure how that has been "dealt" with exactly. If you noticed in my post, I was breaking down the reasons why I believe Jesus is God, logically, and scripture was not really involved.

What Dre means is that he has convinced himself. His arguments do not convince me and He has not been able to refute my arguments.

He argues that the Jews were angry because Jesus claimed to be greater than the Father. Since Jesus is the Father, He can't be greater than the Father and could never claim to be. How then can the Jews be angry with Jesus for disclaiming to be greater than the Father? The answer is that they can't be angry about that but with the fact that He equated Himself with JHVH.

PS: Congratulations Scott for having message 888.

 

[Popeyesays]

What Dre means is that he has convinced himself. His arguments do not convince me and He has not been able to refute my arguments.

He argues that the Jews were angry because Jesus claimed to be greater than the Father. Since Jesus is the Father, He can't be greater than the Father and could never claim to be. How then can the Jews be angry with Jesus for disclaiming to be greater than the Father? The answer is that they can't be angry about that but with the fact that He equated Himself with JHVH.

PS: Congratulations Scott for having message 888.

My favorite Lewis book is The Screwtape Letters.

Of course Jesus argued to those Pharisees at the time that God was greater than He.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What Dre means is that he has convinced himself. His arguments do not convince me and He has not been able to refute my arguments.

He argues that the Jews were angry because Jesus claimed to be greater than the Father. Since Jesus is the Father, He can't be greater than the Father and could never claim to be. How then can the Jews be angry with Jesus for disclaiming to be greater than the Father? The answer is that they can't be angry about that but with the fact that He equated Himself with JHVH.

It is all right there in black and white. You have convinced yourself Yeshua is God by posting random quotes that were taken out of their context. Additionally your "arguments" have been refuted. You said it was "overwhelming evidence"....and as we have clearly seen throughout this demostration you have not presented ANY evidence. I've dealt with most of your rhetoric from the beginning and covered a lot of your descriptions of Yeshua in post 835.

But one of the biggest things I can't stand is when people misquote me. I tend to have to go in and correct them as I will do here. What I said was:

DreGod07
"They wanted to stone him because their understanding was that he was greater than Abraham."

The jews did not charge Yeshua with being greater than the father (God). They did not take him to be God as evident in John 8:41.They charged him with saying he was greater than their father (Abraham) (John 8:53).

They wanted to kill him way before he said what he said in John 8:58 as evident in John 8:37 "You are descendants of Abraham, I know; but you want to kill me, because my teaching gains no ground within you".

They did not want to hear what he had to say. They were further ticked off when Yeshua said he existed before Abraham (John 8:58). No where in chapter eight do they claim he was trying to equal himself with God or that he was claiming to be God. Their frustration with him was centered around Abraham. We can clearly see that he gave glory to his god in almost every statement made.

This situation is focused on Yeshua when he was in the temple. So what I believe is you have your stories mixed up. In chapter 8 there was no charge of Yeshua claiming to be God nor equal to God. This charge came two chapters later and even in that chpater where they accused him of making himself to be God because of the things he did...he went through great lenghts to clarify their misconceptions to show them he was not God but one blessed and sent by God. NOWHERE in chapter 10 will you find Yeshua making a statement equating himself to his god nor any statement saying he is God.

 

[Muffled]

It is all right there in black and white. You have convinced yourself Yeshua is God by posting random quotes that were taken out of their context. Additionally your "arguments" have been refuted. You said it was "overwhelming evidence"....and as we have clearly seen throughout this demostration you have not presented ANY evidence. I've dealt with most of your rhetoric from the beginning and covered a lot of your descriptions of Yeshua in post 835.

But one of the biggest things I can't stand is when people misquote me. I tend to have to go in and correct them as I will do here. What I said was:

DreGod07
"They wanted to stone him because their understanding was that he was greater than Abraham."

The jews did not charge Yeshua with being greater than the father (God). They did not take him to be God as evident in John 8:41.They charged him with saying he was greater than their father (Abraham) (John 8:53).

They wanted to kill him way before he said what he said in John 8:58 as evident in John 8:37 "You are descendants of Abraham, I know; but you want to kill me, because my teaching gains no ground within you".

They did not want to hear what he had to say. They were further ticked off when Yeshua said he existed before Abraham (John 8:58). No where in chapter eight do they claim he was trying to equal himself with God or that he was claiming to be God. Their frustration with him was centered around Abraham. We can clearly see that he gave glory to his god in almost every statement made.

This situation is focused on Yeshua when he was in the temple. So what I believe is you have your stories mixed up. In chapter 8 there was no charge of Yeshua claiming to be God nor equal to God. This charge came two chapters later and even in that chpater where they accused him of making himself to be God because of the things he did...he went through great lenghts to clarify their misconceptions to show them he was not God but one blessed and sent by God. NOWHERE in chapter 10 will you find Yeshua making a statement equating himself to his god nor any statement saying he is God.

If the pharisees are asking Jesus if He is greater than the prophets, who can there be?
The answer that Jesus gave was that He is Yahweh. If he had answered the question with "I was" which would have been the appropriate answer for a human with a previous existence, you would have a case but He answered with the short name for Yaweh in a context that could only be construes that way.

 

[Popeyesays]

If the pharisees are asking Jesus if He is greater than the prophets, who can there be?
The answer that Jesus gave was that He is Yahweh. If he had answered the question with "I was" which would have been the appropriate answer for a human with a previous existence, you would have a case but He answered with the short name for Yaweh in a context that could only be construes that way.

.

Suppose Jesus was exhausted and said, "I am tired." Does His use of the words "I am" constitute a claim to be God?

Of course it does not.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

It is all right there in black and white. You have convinced yourself Yeshua is God by posting random quotes that were taken out of their context. Additionally your "arguments" have been refuted. You said it was "overwhelming evidence"....and as we have clearly seen throughout this demostration you have not presented ANY evidence. I've dealt with most of your rhetoric from the beginning and covered a lot of your descriptions of Yeshua in post 835.

But one of the biggest things I can't stand is when people misquote me. I tend to have to go in and correct them as I will do here. What I said was:

DreGod07
"They wanted to stone him because their understanding was that he was greater than Abraham."

The jews did not charge Yeshua with being greater than the father (God). They did not take him to be God as evident in John 8:41.They charged him with saying he was greater than their father (Abraham) (John 8:53).

They wanted to kill him way before he said what he said in John 8:58 as evident in John 8:37 "You are descendants of Abraham, I know; but you want to kill me, because my teaching gains no ground within you".

They did not want to hear what he had to say. They were further ticked off when Yeshua said he existed before Abraham (John 8:58). No where in chapter eight do they claim he was trying to equal himself with God or that he was claiming to be God. Their frustration with him was centered around Abraham. We can clearly see that he gave glory to his god in almost every statement made.

This situation is focused on Yeshua when he was in the temple. So what I believe is you have your stories mixed up. In chapter 8 there was no charge of Yeshua claiming to be God nor equal to God. This charge came two chapters later and even in that chpater where they accused him of making himself to be God because of the things he did...he went through great lenghts to clarify their misconceptions to show them he was not God but one blessed and sent by God. NOWHERE in chapter 10 will you find Yeshua making a statement equating himself to his god nor any statement saying he is God.

I'm sorry Dregod but if we are talking about and analyzing the characteristics of God, who obviously is outside of our world and our time then saying it is there in "black and white" would be incorrect. To fully understand something such as this (with depth), it takes one trying to step outside of our world to fully grasp the true meaning. God is a hidden God. Seek and ye shall find. The concept of Jesus being God was not simply made up by Paul - and it is absolutely illogical to believe that 10 out of the 11 remaining disciples were killed, looked down upon, stoned to death, etc. b/c they wanted to make up a story that was 0% beneficial to them. They tried to restore an historic event that they witnessed, and this is FAR different than men who die because of faith (the 9/11 attackers for example). Unless we are to think of the disciples as brainwashed lunatics, then you do not die for a myth. Also, have you ever considered why the eyewitnesses to Jesus testimony or the disciple's pupils did not simply state - Paul states Jesus was God in the Flesh, but we are here to tell you that he was not? Or do you believe that when they heard about Paul's claims, they were like "Okay, that sounds even better."

And I have been writing a long post for this topic and will eventually finish it but doesn't it make perfect sense for Jesus to pray and to give all of the glory to God. God in the flesh would not have the same as God (outside of world, time, and having human temptations, qualities, etc...). Instead of Jesus giving all of the glory to himself, of course he gives it to the Father because would die one day, on the cross.

 

[lew0049]

.

Suppose Jesus was exhausted and said, "I am tired." Does His use of the words "I am" constitute a claim to be God?

Of course it does not.

Regards,
Scott

Suppose Jesus was hungry and He said, "Is there anything to eat?" (which he did after the resurrection), would a spirit want food to eat? Or was he simply asking for conversation. Of course not Scott.

 

[Popeyesays]

Lew,

Dre isn't saying Jesus is not Divine, He is saying Jesus is not GOD. Nothing Dre or I have said has challenged the divine nature of Jesus. I accept that divine nature unequivocally.

I believe God is the Most Hidden of the Hidden and the Most Manifest of the Manifest. We stare into the face of God all the time whereever we may look, but we lack the ability to discern Him in His Essence. That Essence cannot be contained within a human vessel, or even within the bounds of the entire universe. Jesus cannot BE God.

On the other hand, since we never can see GOD, and we can see Jesus; that makes Jesus the closest thing to God we might ever perceive.

Isn't that really enough?

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Scott,

What did John mean then when he recorded this early Christian hymn at the outset of his Gospel?

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b] 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known. (John 1)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If the pharisees are asking Jesus if He is greater than the prophets, who can there be?

I'm not sure I fully understand the question. Many have over analyzed that chapter. Yeshua is not saying he is God. He is saying he existed "before" Abraham. Remember, they wanted to kill him way before he said he existed before Abraham.

John 8:37-40
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Yes, I realize that you are descendants of Abraham. And yet some of you are trying to kill me because my message does not find a place in your hearts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]I am telling you what I saw when I was with my Father. But you are following the advice of your father."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]"Our father is Abraham," they declared. "No," Jesus replied, "for if you were children of Abraham, you would follow his good example.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]I told you the truth I heard from God, but you are trying to kill me. Abraham wouldn't do a thing like that.[/FONT]

Now observe the conversation. It is still focused around Abraham. You will see that in 8:58 he makes no claim of being God.

John 8:51-59
I assure you, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!"
The people said, "Now we know you are possessed by a demon. Even Abraham and the prophets died, but you say that those who obey your teaching will never die!

Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Are you greater than the prophets, who died? Who do you think you are?"

Jesus answered, "If I am merely boasting about myself, it doesn't count. But it is my Father who says these glorious things about me. You say, `He is our God,'

but you do not even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But it is true--I know him and obey him.

Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."

The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?


Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

At that point they picked up stones to kill him. But Jesus hid himself from

them and left the Temple.

The context of the conversation has nothing to do with him making a claim to be God.

If he had answered the question with "I was" which would have been the appropriate answer for a human with a previous existence, you would have a case but He answered with the short name for Yaweh in a context that could only be construes that way.

I've avoided doing this to you but you seem to only want to read from the KJV or other bibles that list "I am" and you make the assumption that Yeshua was invoking the name of God. This, however, is a great misunderstanding of the greek words being used and their definition. Please observe and hopefully we can do away with this verse forever because Yeshua is NOT claiming to be God in that verse and you will clearly see by the definition of the greek words that Yeshua said he existed before Abraham and that is why they wanted to kill him.

Strongs Greek Lexicon
ego
1473. ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--I, me.

eimi
1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

Now can we move beyond YOUR misunderstanding of that verse because regardless of what you think or any theologian who professes Yeshua to be God by this verse ARE WRONG.......!.......because as you can see the verse above adheres to lexicographical rules.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'm sorry Dregod but if we are talking about and analyzing the characteristics of God, who obviously is outside of our world and our time then saying it is there in "black and white" would be incorrect. To fully understand something such as this (with depth), it takes one trying to step outside of our world to fully grasp the true meaning.

I'm merely saying that John 8:58 has absolutely NOTHING with Yeshua claiming to be God or invoking the name of God. The greek words "ego eimi" simply mean ("I existed"). Now put that in to the the verse and see what you get.

Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

God in the flesh would not have the same as God (outside of world, time, and having human temptations, qualities, etc...)

How would you know? You first said "To fully understand something such as this (with depth), it takes one trying to step outside of our world to fully grasp the true meaning." So for you to make such a claim you must have stepped outside of our world. Is this your position? You first reveal that we can't clearly understand God then you present your opinion as if you actually do understand God. This is double talk. You rationalize all you like. How can you take away or add to God? God can not become less than God. Yeshua does not reveal to us he is God. He does, however, reveal to us that his god sent him from heaven, not of his own will, but of God's will. He does reveal to us that God gave him a doctrine and commanded him what to say. He does reveal that his god sent him into the world with a task to complete. He does reveal to use that he wanted his god to restore glory upon him which he had WITH his god before the world was created. He does reveal to us that power was GIVEN to him IN HEAVEN (beyond our world) AND In Earth.......And he does reveal to us that he has a god..So he has revealed to us that he IS NOT God......