Did Jesus say he was God???

[outhouse]

Only Jesus WALKED THE WALK by proving it with miracles..

says who?


all the NT authors never knew or even witnessed jesus once


Any Tom Dick Harry can claim they knew him

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..all the NT authors never knew or even witnessed jesus once..

Gospel writers Matthew and John were two of his disciples, and Paul spoke with the risen Jesus!
And Jesus didn't hole up in some hideout, he travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the 5 million population of Israel and the occupying Roman garrison, that's a lot of eyewitnesses -

“I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And- "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two appearances alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13)
Later the gospels were written with help from "eyewitnesses and ministers of the word" (Luke 1:2)
Heck, he was almost as big as Elvis, right Elv?

"Uh-huh"..

 

[outhouse]

Gospel writers Matthew and John were two of his disciples

Unsubstantiated.

Why would his disciple have to copy Mark who was writing to the Romans, which would amount to their enemies. As jesus fought against the Roman corruption in the temple.


Thanks for playing, but you need a history lesson.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..Why would his disciple have to copy Mark who was writing to the Romans,.

Who says Mark was writing to the Romans?

 

[outhouse]

Who says Mark was writing to the Romans?

What language did Jesus speak? Aramaic

Where did jesus teach and heal for the most part? Poor Aramaic villages






What language was Mark written in? Koine Greek in big cities.

Who was marks primary audience? Romans and Gentiles away from Israel

Who was Mark making look like the bad guys? Jews, Jesus own people.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Who was marks primary audience? Romans and Gentiles away from Israel.

So what? The gospel was already well known in Israel which is why Jesus said- "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" (Mark 16:15)

 

[Syed Ahmad]

JM2C

Hello

Can you provide the verse that you are referring to? Thanks

Sorry, I didn't have any verse in particular, I was replying to another forumer.



disciple

Thanks for the explanation, however, I don't fully agree that if you read the bible, he is clearly a deity.. When I read Matthew, Mark and Luke, I didn't get that impression at all. The only impression I got that he was a miracle working man/Prophet. Did you get the image that he was a divine being from just these three gospels?


Thanks

Syed

 

[Desert Snake]

disciple

Thanks for the explanation, however, I don't fully agree that if you read the bible, he is clearly a deity.. When I read Matthew, Mark and Luke, I didn't get that impression at all. The only impression I got that he was a miracle working man/Prophet. Did you get the image that he was a divine being from just these three gospels?


Thanks

Syed

No, it's Christian tradition, though. There seems to be evidence for this even with the first Christians, the more I read the more it seems as if the NT is writing about established beliefs, and part of that aspect is 'humanizing' Jesus as well. For sure it isn't 'deification', even though at first glance one would assume so.
One such established early Christian belief is the pre-existence in Deity form of Jesus, that is certainly not 'deifying' a human/Rabbi, and in fact it also establishes a persona /Jesus/Yeshu prior to birth through Mary (Jesus the man).

 

[Syed Ahmad]

Hi disciple

I agree that if you read much of the NT, e.g. John's gospel and Paul's epistles that you may come to the conclusion that Jesus was a divine being. However, what about the first three gospels? If Jesus was a pre-existent Deity, surely Matt and Luke's birth narratives would have hinted at it, yet they do not. This is my question.

Thanks

Syed
MuslimCommentaryOfBible.com

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi disciple

I agree that if you read much of the NT, e.g. John's gospel and Paul's epistles that you may come to the conclusion that Jesus was a divine being. However, what about the first three gospels? If Jesus was a pre-existent Deity, surely Matt and Luke's birth narratives would have hinted at it, yet they do not. This is my question.

Thanks

Syed
MuslimCommentaryOfBible.com

I need to research that.

 

[Muffled]

Let me first ask that if Christ did not bear our eternal damnation then on what hope do we think we will escape it. The bible says that every man will die and THEN the judgment. What is the outcomes of that judgment since my body is already dead if not separation from God spiritually?

I like the colors but they are hard to quote, regardless keep using them.

If it occurred what evidence would you expect to have that you do not. Many doctrines like this are not empirical but philosophical and theological.

I arrive at that from many points. One about heel being thrown into the pit to be destroyed forever. Another for the insanity of believing God will sit around in Hell omnipresent forever. Another from it's injustice. Another from the symbology used in fire and brimstone versus. Another from verse about fearing the one who can destroy the soul. etc..... but none are certain proof.

I believe the above touché don this.

We are born spiritually separated from God and dead. That is the price of Adams sin enacted by God's saying if you eat on that day you will die. Die how they did not physically die? They spiritual died. WE are all born this way and are given an undisclosed amount of time to resolve it. If we do not it becomes eternal.

He does things better than I do but it is not his morality that saves but his death. Are you familiar with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement? He had to take my place because the standard is perfection and I can't achieve it no mater how many role models I have. I have nothing to offer to bridge this infinite gap between my moral record and God's perfect standard. If Christ did not bridge that gap through substitution then no matter what else he did it will not save me. You seem to not only disagree with mainstream Christianity but to not really get it here. What do you substitute for it? Do you think practicing Jesus' lessons will make you perfect? Do you think anything you have merits heaven? I gained more faith in my doctrinal conclusions by seeing the impossibility of any alternative, than anything else.[/quote]

I beleive the term is "judged out of the book of life". Since I have received Jesus as Lord and Savior I have life and therefore my name will be found there as having life.

I believe that God will select an appropriate judgement based upon how the person lived and the person's spiritaul well being. For instance when I returned to life from Heaven God gave me very good parents and a body with a super immune system. It would be nice if I deserved that but I believe it was recompense for what I suffered in my previous life. The rich will become poor and the poor become rich. The last shall be first and the first last.

I believe doctrines are usually based on scriptue.

I believe this stems from the idea that Hell is torment. For God it is not. God can't deny Himself. He is omnipresent and changing that would be a self denial.

I believe we are neveer separated from God but we are less cognizant of Him while in the body. Adam did not live etrnally and that is what is meant by death not a spiritual death. However having a knowledge of good and evil gives the person a modicum of spiritual death.

I beleive that I am. Attonement is about the forgiveness of sin not about salvation.

I believe this statement is not true. Attonement is about the past and salvation about the pesent. What God does with my past does not altar what God can do about my present.

I believe appearances are deceiving. Main stream Christianity appears to be an illusion since there are so many fallacies present in the different denominations.

I believe in the long run Islam (practicing the goodness of God in our own sense of the goodness of God) is what He is working towards. I believe in the short run we have too much baggage to be able to do it on our own.

I don't believe on merits Heaven. I believe Heaven is provided by grace. I believe it is voluntary: Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Muffled]

Can you explain to me what you mean, by "it makes it makes no difference to the gospel of Paul"? 1 Corinthians 15 is not dealing with a gospel of Paul, it is the Gospel or Good News of Christ (Rom. 1:16)! How can the meaning of 1 Cor. 15 not be affected by what you are saying and vice-versa? It says that "Christ died for our sins". If he did not die for our sins on the cross, how did he die for our sins?

I beleive Jesus taught a Gospel of the Kingdom. Pauls Gospel is different. Pau;'s Gospel is about Jesus but it isn't the Gospel that Jesus preached. It is just that Paul preaches the Gospel of the Kingdom but not as Paul's gospel.

I can say it because Jesus ended up dead so it makes sense to say He died even though He didn't.

The text says that He died for our sins according to the scriptures. The scriptures contain eyewitness accounts that go by appearances. It appeared that Jesus died on the cross so the scriptures say so. Now I will ask you a question: What does it mean when it says He died for our sins?

 

[Muffled]

Hi

Interesting topic.

once question though, if Jesus claimed to be God, then the question remains is why do the Synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) not mention this? There are no explicit verses saying so, you may have ambiguous statements that 'he knew their thoughts' etc. However, this is simply the interpretation and view of the author and it is pretty obvious that the Pharasees were trying to trap him etc.

Why do the first three gospels not mention anything explicit? Did they think Jesus was God?

Thanks

Syed

Matthew calls Him Emanuel meaning God with us which is the equivalent of Calling Him God. Luke is interviewing people so it is possible he misssed it. Mark who is ghost writing for Peter doesn't have it because Peter is not theologically minded and tends to be brief anyway. John reports that Peter and the other disciples were present when Thomas calls Jesus, God but only John reports the event.

 

[JM2C]

I agree that if you read much of the NT, e.g. John's gospel and Paul's epistles that you may come to the conclusion that Jesus was a divine being.

However, what about the first three gospels? If Jesus was a pre-existent Deity, surely Matt and Luke's birth narratives would have hinted at it, yet they do not. This is my question.

Thanks

Syed
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.

I think what you have in your mind is a preconceived notions, that no matter how one explain it to you, the “Matt and Luke's birth narratives” or Christ genealogy, you will not believe base on one of the most famous passages in the Koran.
4:157
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain

Let me ask you, is Ishmael a direct ancestor of Muhammad, or can you trace Muhammad’s genealogy to Ishmael?

If you read the Lord Jesus Christ genealogy, His human –Jn 1:14- genealogy, in Luke 3:23-38 and in Matthew 1:1-17 we can read that He is related, in the flesh, to Isaac, the half- brother of Ishmael.

In John 1:1-3 we can read Christ as God and became flesh in verse 14.

 

[Muffled]

Topic title: Did Jesus say he was God???

He made it clear many times that he WASN'T God, so I can't understand why this topic has run to over 800 pages, or am I missing something?


Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
Jesus said - "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)
Jesus said to God the day before his execution- “Father, the hour has come....I am coming to you now" (John 17:13)
Jesus said - "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)
Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)
High Priest asks - "Are you the Son of God?" Jesus replies - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
And of course Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?

I believe when a person says something is clear it means he can't prove his assertion. If it were clear I wouldn' have spent 800 pages refuting it.
I believe you would find all of those verses refuted as to meaning a lack of divinity over the 800 pages but if you can find one I will refute that one also.

 

[idav]

I believe when a person says something is clear it means he can't prove his assertion. If it were clear I wouldn' have spent 800 pages refuting it.
I believe you would find all of those verses refuted as to meaning a lack of divinity over the 800 pages but if you can find one I will refute that one also.

What Jesus did make clear is that he is not the father but admitted a very close relationship.

 

[Kielbasa]

What Jesus did make clear is that he is not the father but admitted a very close relationship.

Sounds kinky. It's really moot isn't it, since people worship Jesus AS a god?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

I said- Jesus made it clear many times that he WASN'T God, so I can't understand why this topic has run to over 800 pages, or am I missing something?
Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
Jesus said - "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)
Jesus said to God the day before his execution- “Father, the hour has come....I am coming to you now" (John 17:13)
Jesus said - "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)
Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)
High Priest asks - "Are you the Son of God?" Jesus replies - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
And of course Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?

I believe when a person says something is clear it means he can't prove his assertion. If it were clear I wouldn' have spent 800 pages refuting it.
I believe you would find all of those verses refuted as to meaning a lack of divinity over the 800 pages but if you can find one I will refute that one also.

I'm not sure what you're getting at mate, those Jesus quotes seem clear enough to me, or am I missing something?..

 

[`mud]

hey Shuttle,
That was a simple list of quotes of what some people said that Jesus supposedly said. Nothing there that says that Jesus really said them.
We get back to the simple assumed fact that Jesus never wrote anything.
Well, excusing some scratches in the sand while observing the stoning of a prostitute. But the wind blew those scribbles away.
No direct quotes, only second hand hearsay.
~
'mud

 

[JM2C]

What Jesus did make clear is that he is not the father but admitted a very close relationship.

You are right Idav, a very close relationship as in the one in John 1:18

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The Lord said, “my Father” twice and “my God” once and He said to Mary, “your Father” and “your God”

Nowhere in the four Gospel did the Lord address God as our Father or our God.

The distinction between the Lord’s “my Father” twice and “my God” once, and to Mary’s, “your Father” and “your God” was not that there were two gods, but that Mary’s relationship with God was different from the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus is the eternal Son of the Father or the Son of God –John 1:1-3, V18, Romans 1:4; while Mary, as well as all the disciples, had become a member of the family by receiving him –John 1:12, or through adoption -Eph 1:5. Both relationships concerned only one God, but that doesn’t mean the Lord Jesus Christ is not God. He is God because He is the Son of God –Hebrews 1:8 “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God”.

Compare verse John 20:17 here,

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The same thing here in Ephesians, we read “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” as in John 20:17. Paul did not say, “our God, and our Father” but the Lord Jesus Christ’s “God and Father” as “the only begotten Son’ or the only Son of God.”

If we compare that to this verse “To our God and Father –Phil 4:20” Paul use of “our God and Father” as NOT the “the only begotten Son’ or the only Son of God.” but as the adopted children of God.

These writers, Paul, and the gospel writers, all have the same thoughts when they were writing their letters, that Christ relationship to God the Father is as the “the only begotten Son’ or the only Son of God from eternity, and Christians’ relationship to the God the Father is through Christ by means of adoption –John 1:12, Eph 1:5.

Through this relationship, by adoption through the Lord Jesus Christ, Christians became partaker of this eternal blessing, from eternity, where Christ is, I.E., in heavenly places –Eph 1:3.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: