Francine
Well-Known Member
Save the Whales, club a Seal instead!
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Save the Whales, club a Seal instead!
lunamoth
Will to love
lunamoth
Will to love
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Protector,
She's draggin red herrings across our scent trail. Next she'll try sprinkling black pepper to misdirect us.
She probably does own a bald cat and lurk under a volcano.
Regards,
Scott
She's draggin red herrings across our scent trail. Next she'll try sprinkling black pepper to misdirect us.
She probably does own a bald cat and lurk under a volcano.
Regards,
Scott
Ummm...okay...
Well anyways yes he is the last prophet.
lunamoth
Will to love
Divide and conquer I always say.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Now I am supposed to get misdirected arguing that with you. I am not a Muslim. I am a Baha`i. And we believe that Seal means a guarantor or warrantor for the truth of the Prophets, not the END of the succession of Prophets.
If you want to argue that, start a new thread.
Regards,
Scott
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
SO you have exposed THEM charging him with making himself to be God. It isn't Yeshua here saying he is God or in some way confirming what they assumed. Yeshua, right after that verse, goes through great lenghts to clarify who he is and at no time did he lend any sort of credibility to their claims. He actually reveals to them he is merely the son OF his god.
John 10:34-39
Jesus replied, "It is written in your own law that God said to certain leaders of the people, `I say, you are gods!
And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people, who received God's message, were called `gods,'
why do you call it blasphemy when the holy one who was sent into the world by the
Father says, `I am the Son of God'?
Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work.
But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
The only thing there is a clarification of who he is and it had nothing to do with him being God. He does reveal to them that it was his god that blessed him and sent him into the world which makes him the son OF God.
Francine
Well-Known Member
Since I wasn't there, I need to go by the eyewitnesses who were there and heard Jesus spoke. They seemed to hear him say he was equal to God, and Jesus didn't do much to disabuse them of that notion if he perceived that he was misunderstood.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
NOW...NOW.... You know trinitarians will never be able to find an "explicit" statement......but what they will try to feed you is is an "Implicit" statement...and this is in striking contrast as to how God reveals himself in the OT.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
doppelgänger;1050030 said:
Thank you....I have said this before....and I totally agree.
I keep seeing people post John 1 etc... over and over....well The authors interpretation of who he thought the messiah was is of no importance. We can clearly see that in may of the verses he mirrors the other gospels whe he is reporting what Yeshua says and at no time does Yeshua reveal in any of the verses from the 4 books he is God or equal to God.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Then you have to go back before that chapter. As you read forward you will discover at no point does he make himself to be God. This conversation goes back to the previous chapter where he made a blind man see. That's why if you're reading this chpater you don't get this reference of John 10:21 Others said, "This doesn't sound like a man possessed by a demon! Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"
This event happened back in chapter nine. There was no claim made by him of being God. And as I have posted earlier he tried to clear up their misunderstandings by quoting the law and informing them that he was doing the work of his god that sent him.
He thought he was simply doing the will of God and thought that's why they wanted to stone and him. This is why he asked the question John 10:36 why do you call it blasphemy when the holy one who was sent into the world by the Father says, `I am the Son of God'?
His defense and declaration was that his god blessed him and sent him into the world. And right there he declares himself son OF God. That is where he tries to clarify his position. He doesn't just stop there he continues and tells them don't take my word for it. Believe me if I am doing God's work.
10:37
Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work.
Then he says to them If I do God's work then believe what I have done even if you don't believe in me. You will know God is in me and I am in him.
10:38
But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
They still didn't understand what he was saying and that is why they wanted to arrest him. They still thought he was trying to say he was God even though he kept telling them he was doing the will of God. We get clarification to John 10:38 later in John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
He simply meant he was doing the will of God. He was doing what he was commanded by his god to do and since his power came from his god they were one in purposeas he prayed we would be one in purpose with *them".....
Please show me verses that implicitly speak about trinity.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
This is a very important passage to my understanding of John (including John 1:1). Those who have the Spirit are "God." This is why Jesus says "I and the Father are one." This is almost always taken as meaning that only Jesus is "one with the Father," but the text of John 10 has Jesus clearly explaining that what he means is that anyone who has the Spirit of God (or "to whom the Word of God came") is "God." So those who grasp the power of creation of their divine Logos are God in the flesh. The story that follows is an metaphor of what it means to be the Word in the flesh for those who enter into this mystery.
So by being a son (or daughter) of "God," I become one with the Father in the same way Jesus claimed to be one with the Father - when the word of God comes to me.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
It's of no importance to me because I agree with you. John 8:58 is one of them even though that is a misunderstanding of the greek words being used "ego eimi" (I existed). Muffled listed plenty of what he believes is Yeshua claiming to be God at the beginning of this thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/61330-did-jesus-say-he-god.html
I have dealt with all of those quotes and at a glance you're left wondering why he posted them when clearly most of those quotes Yeshua gives praise to his god. You are coming in late so you may not be aware that originally the thread was Call "Is Jesus God in the flesh"....as you can see the title has changed but the answer to either question remains to be NO!...Yeshua was not God in the flesh nor did he say he was God.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
doppelgänger;1050486 said:
I totally agree. Yeshua says it this way....;
John 3:34
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.
The first part of it is key. He, Yeshua, speaks for God, the words of God that God gave him to speak to the people
doppelgänger;1050486 said:
I agree.....
Praise be to the One God! By the way brother, what religion are you?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Don't really belong to any religion. I grew up in a multi-religious family. Mother and father side were christian and uncle's side was muslim.
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
It becomes clear when one considers that the term "God" is not a name that is singularly held but a title given to those who hold the highest office of the Holy Priesthood.
Your question is a good one because there are three that are generally accepted as Gods - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. It is this confusion that gave rise to the very unfathomable idea of the Trinity - you know - three are actually one but they are not but, wait a minute, yes they are and so on :areyoucra
OK, OK, OK, I know some of you will say that I am both a father and a son and an uncle and that I have lots of titles but I am not my own son and I don't go around talking to myself with confusing rhetoric nor do I go about performing little tricks like throwing my voice into the heavens while pulling doves out of nowhere, all the while standing in a pool of water with someone holding on to me to make sure I am not pulling a fast one.