Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

My question is this...
Why would a supposedly lying historian "Josephus" ever want to support such a heretical story?

What's your point?

At best, Josephus was reporting what he had heard from others. It's not like he ever met the biblical Yeshua. The only writings of any supposed contemporary of the biblical Yeshua is Saul/Paul. Although he was a contemporary he never ever met the biblical Yeshua....

And as far as "lying".....check the record. There were a couple back in the day who seemed to write accounts that weren't true and there were people who took the works of others and doctored them. Your own bible has/had information that had to be taken out because it was deemed to be an interpolation.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

DP
Wow! I thought that was an easy one.


1) It was dangerous
2) It was dangerous
3) Sing it for me Meatloaf!

And as far as "lying".....check the record. There were a couple back in the day who seemed to write accounts that weren't true and there were people who took the works of others and doctored them. Your own bible has/had information that had to be taken out because it was deemed to be an interpolation.

Ok, Gilgamesh? I read your post.

Your right.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Again, you consistently fail to even attempt to read this in the whole of John's theology

Then we have very distinct theologies (interpretations) amongst the writers. Mark, supposedly being the earliest of the gospels, does not paint the biblical Yeshua as a god/man or God. The writer of the book of John, whoever he was, puts his own esoteric view into the writings. Even so, what he claims the biblical Yeshua said does not show the biblical Yeshua was god, taught his followers he was god or even he himself thought he was god.

- the Word, which is incarnate and is Christ, was in the beginning both God and the only begotten of Father (re: the Prologue), the one who dwells at the Father's heart and the effective agent of making the Father known- His very life being the Father's word and act of self-communication to human kind. To know the Son is to know the Father, the Father is in the Son- this suggests more intimate associations than what you tend to reduce it to. Jesus is quite evidently not any prophet of the Old Testament, he does not merely bring the will of God to humanity, but is Himself the very Word which God intends to bring to humanity.

One in purpose does not mean one in the same. This same Yeshua outright says he existed (with) his god. He expresses he has his own will before coming to earth, he expresses that his god taught him and instructed him what he should say. Even after his supposed crucifixion and ascension we find Yeshua (The Lamb) completely separate from his god in heaven and being deemed the only one out of all the hosts eligible to open the seals.

Reading Christ's stament "before Abraham was, I am!", in light of the eternity of the Word as taught in the prologue, and the doctrine of the Word as the creative agent over the world (again, refer to Genesis- it is God who creates through speech, and the author of John knows this), an alternative reading is not at all improbable. The author of John is ascribing characteristics to Jesus which he very well knows are the perogatives of the divine being.

Reading that writer's interpretaion gives us a sense as to what he might have believed. We can not say for a certainty he thought Yeshua was God. The prologue is ambiguous and can be interpreted multiple ways which may be plausable. As we move on from there we don't see Yeshua as God...we see him as a servant before he came to earth, while he was here and after he left. He explicitly, in the four gospels, informs us he's not even on the same level with his god and is at often times knowledgeable of that which he supposedly created.

 

[logician]

Anoether question might be "Did God say he was Jesus".

 

[dogsgod]

.



Lol

 

[Muffled]

Anoether question might be "Did God say he was Jesus".

God said "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."

 

[Greatest I am]

Then the Father said to the son. This will be great, instead of forgiving man outright for doing what we created him to do, I will send you down to suffer and die.
Then Jesus said to his father, are you ******* nuts. Just forgive them outright fool.

Regards
DL

 

[sojourner]

Then the Father said to the son. This will be great, instead of forgiving man outright for doing what we created him to do, I will send you down to suffer and die.
Then Jesus said to his father, are you ******* nuts. Just forgive them outright fool.

Regards
DL

Straw man.

 

[krazykoreankid1]

jesus was one in the same and yet he was not the father as well. jesus has numerous displays of divine aid but so did elijah and elisha and samuel and moses, and they were not god incarnate. one could say that he has power because god is said to live in all of us, he just chose one man to be the conduit in which he could wield his power. and before the betrayel of judas, jesus himself questioned why god didn't stop the events that were to unfold. clearly one of ture divinity wouldn't have such human questions. and yet, he knew that he had to for the good of all and for how much he loved the people of the world

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Then we have very distinct theologies (interpretations) amongst the writers. Mark, supposedly being the earliest of the gospels, does not paint the biblical Yeshua as a god/man or God.

Let's read Mark (NIV)
BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Mark;


Mark 1:21-22 (NIV)

21They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. 22The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law.

]

Mark 1:27-22

27The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, "What is this? A new teaching—and with authority!

Some people disagree with you.

The writer of the book of John, whoever he was, puts his own esoteric view into the writings. Even so, what he claims the biblical Yeshua said does not show the biblical Yeshua was god, taught his followers he was god or even he himself thought he was god.

John 1:1-2 (NIV)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

Again, some people would disagree with you.

One in purpose does not mean one in the same.

YouTube - Cyndi Lauper "True Colors"

All colors have a relationship. *think abstractly*

Even after his supposed crucifixion and ascension we find Yeshua (The Lamb) completely separate from his god in heaven and being deemed the only one out of all the hosts eligible to open the seals.

Yes Yeshua says he existed (with) his God the Father.

This same Yeshua outright says he existed (with) his god. He expresses he has his own will before coming to earth, he expresses that his god taught him and instructed him what he should say.

I agree.

Reading that writer's interpretaion gives us a sense as to what he might have believed.

You think?

We can not say for a certainty he thought Yeshua was God.

Speak for yourself.

The prologue is ambiguous and can be interpreted multiple ways which may be plausable

.

Your a shining example of that....plausable(sp?)

QUOTE]

As we move on from there we don't see Yeshua as God...

That's your problem, you've moved on and don't see Yeshua is God, from my POV.

we see him as a servant before he came to earth, while he was here and after he left.

:yes:

He explicitly, in the four gospels, informs us he's not even on the same level with his god and is at often times knowledgeable of that which he supposedly created.

As I have said before, Yeshua is a subordinate of the Father. Yeshua speaks of the Father as His God and the Father speaks of his Son as God.

Matthew 28: 16-18 (NIV)

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Revelation 1:8 (NIV)

8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Note: In the NIV the word Lord and LORD mean Yeshua and Yahweh, respectively.

 

[Kurt31416]

Some about Jesus was probably deleted from Josephus, some was probably added, and Josephus by reading him against himself, is clearly hostile to Jesus and trouble makers like him.

The oldest physical scrap of Josephus is about 1100CE and passed through the hands of the Christian Church. We have all 5 Gospels and Paul by 250CE, so which one is history?

 

[Greatest I am]

Straw man.

That just means that it makes sense and you do not want to deal with truth.
The notion is not straw but steel.
Thanks for acknowledging it.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

jesus was one in the same and yet he was not the father as well. jesus has numerous displays of divine aid but so did elijah and elisha and samuel and moses, and they were not god incarnate. one could say that he has power because god is said to live in all of us, he just chose one man to be the conduit in which he could wield his power. and before the betrayel of judas, jesus himself questioned why god didn't stop the events that were to unfold. clearly one of ture divinity wouldn't have such human questions. and yet, he knew that he had to for the good of all and for how much he loved the people of the world

Yep. Loved them enough to use genocide on them.
No thanks to that love.

Strange kind of love. Perhaps that is why His plan included killing Himself. Penance for genocide.

Regards
DL

 

[Kurt31416]

Yep. Loved them enough to use genocide on them.
No thanks to that love.

Strange kind of love. Perhaps that is why His plan included killing Himself. Penance for genocide.

Regards
DL

No, killing him was Paul's Idea. And of course, Mark was carrying Paul's water. The agenda of Mark is that the disciples are clueless and of low character, and the sayings and miracles are worthless. That the only thing that matters is killing Jesus and what good people are going to get that killin' done.

 

[Muffled]

Then the Father said to the son. This will be great, instead of forgiving man outright for doing what we created him to do, I will send you down to suffer and die.
Then Jesus said to his father, are you ******* nuts. Just forgive them outright fool.

Regards
DL

This presupposes that Jesus is a separate person but the evidence is that He is not.

Obviously this is your concept which you would like to authenticate by putting words in the mouth of God that aren't there.

God already tried that as seen in Psalm 103. Anyone can say they are forgiving you but unless they back it up with actions it is just words.

If God selected someone else to do the forgiving then the forgiveness doesn't really come from God. That is one of the evidences that Jesus is God because He and only He has the authority to forgive sins.

 

[ayani]

Jesus did not say He is God.

however, in John 14:6-9 Jesus tells us plainly that whoever has seen and known Him, has seen and known God.

Jesus has abilities and authority unique to God, and we see Him throughout the Gospels simply doing things in the power of God, as opposed to specifically asking God to work a miracle through Him, as we see with earlier prophets like Moses and Elijah.

between Father and Son there is a distinction, and hierarchy. yet we can see and know the Father through the Son, and through the Son also have forgiveness of sins, a relationship with God, and new life.

Jesus is certainly God's person, power, grace, and will come down to us as a Man, through whom we can be personally reconciled to God, and saved. He has all authroity on heaven and earth, and no one comes to the Father but througth Him.

it is not wrong or un-Biblical to say that Jesus is God made Man, God with us. the Father come down through the Son as per Zachariah 2:10-11. the LORD sending the Lord to dwell with us, and rescue us.

 

[Greatest I am]

This presupposes that Jesus is a separate person but the evidence is that He is not.

Obviously this is your concept which you would like to authenticate by putting words in the mouth of God that aren't there.

God already tried that as seen in Psalm 103. Anyone can say they are forgiving you but unless they back it up with actions it is just words.

If God selected someone else to do the forgiving then the forgiveness doesn't really come from God. That is one of the evidences that Jesus is God because He and only He has the authority to forgive sins.

So then God the father becomes redundant.
Jesus sends Him on an extended holiday.

Nothing like a son forcing dad into retirement.
That is worth a little three days pretending to be dead.
Strange that God would create sin and evil just to forgive it's use.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Jesus did not say He is God.

however, in John 14:6-9 Jesus tells us plainly that whoever has seen and known Him, has seen and known God.

Jesus has abilities and authority unique to God, and we see Him throughout the Gospels simply doing things in the power of God, as opposed to specifically asking God to work a miracle through Him, as we see with earlier prophets like Moses and Elijah.

between Father and Son there is a distinction, and hierarchy. yet we can see and know the Father through the Son, and through the Son also have forgiveness of sins, a relationship with God, and new life.

Jesus is certainly God's person, power, grace, and will come down to us as a Man, through whom we can be personally reconciled to God, and saved. He has all authroity on heaven and earth, and no one comes to the Father but througth Him.

it is not wrong or un-Biblical to say that Jesus is God made Man, God with us. the Father come down through the Son as per Zachariah 2:10-11. the LORD sending the Lord to dwell with us, and rescue us.

To say that Jesus is the son of God is to say that God practices bestiality. Yuk.
Do you really believe that God would use another mans wife?

I find it strange that instead of answering to the father, we must now answer to his half human half god chimera.
As to the holy ghost---your outa there.

Regards
DL

 

[sojourner]

That just means that it makes sense and you do not want to deal with truth.
The notion is not straw but steel.
Thanks for acknowledging it.

Regards
DL

Here is what you said:

Then the Father said to the son. This will be great, instead of forgiving man outright for doing what we created him to do, I will send you down to suffer and die.
Then Jesus said to his father, are you ******* nuts. Just forgive them outright fool.

To which I replied, "Straw man."

It is a straw man, since substitutionary Atonement is not the only (IMO, the least) valid way to look at the crucifixion. You make it look like the only way.

It's a straw man. You set up a false scenario, call it real, then knock it down. It proves nothing but your ineptitude at arguing the point.

 

[sojourner]

Yep. Loved them enough to use genocide on them.
No thanks to that love.

Strange kind of love. Perhaps that is why His plan included killing Himself. Penance for genocide.

Regards
DL

You love the straw man tactic, don't you?