Did Jesus say he was God???

[Jamal_a_Man]

I think all so-called Christians believe that Jesus is God when in fact (according to Jesus and his Apostles), he was a man made by God.

I too Believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a man made by God. so i am glad that our perception is similar with regards to this.

however, i do not blame the other 'so-called' Christians entirely for why they believe this. it is partyl the fault of the church. this is because when Christians hear their priests and holy men speak they do not hear the truth of what is being said. this is because, most priests and evangelists and also missionaires will use only the parts of the bible to relay to the Christians that bolsters their faith.

For example; i have heard many a time Christains say that Jesus is God because he said; 'I and my Father are one'. However, they have only looked at that sentence on its own, and not the enitre verse which gives it its context. Thus, christians are not being given the correct message by their own appointed leaders, how then can they learn what is true?
On the other hand, any mis-conception is also the fault of the believer as he /she has not looked into their own faith which in essence is beneficial for them alone.

I must say that your criticial thinkin lynx has given me much hope that their are still individuals out their who prefer to read things the way they are instead of the way they want to believe they are.


I think what is lacking somewhat in most religions is that people believe that faith means using the heart alone and feeling. This is true to some extent! but to be rightly guided in my opinion one needs to use his intellect also as both the heart and mind must beable to come to some agreement.

I am rambling again, but i would like to thankyou for reading my post and replyiing!

Jamal

 

[Muffled]

Dear friend,

The quotes you have used are out of context. to be able to fully understand something whether it is in the bible, the quran or clinical medicine kumar and clark, one must have read the passage or verse in its context. with regards to religious literature this is even more important, and complicated.

it is more complicated because not only do you need to read the verse in tis context but also with the thought or mind of those who wrote it at the time and their way and use of their language.

back in those days, if one was called the 'son' of god, it did not mean that he was the literal son of god, but instead he was a godly person, a person who was one with god in action and obediance. 'god has son's by the tons in the old testement' quote Sheik Ahmed Deedat, he said this in one of his lectures titled 'is jesus the son of god?' you can find these lectures and debates with deedat in them who is running rings around the christian missionaries and evangelists as he has knowledge of the origins of the bible and how it is read and understood.

now, when jesus says ' i and my father are one' he doesnt mean he, the holy spirit and the father are one literally, like a sausage.... he means and if you read it in the context, that they are one in 'Purpose'. Jesus was one of the mightiest messengers of God and he was an excellent example for all human kind. thus he was one like god in purpose, because he too was trying to help people into a pure, straight path of success.

when jesus says he is the light he doesnt mean he is god, hwat he means is that he can give us light by showing us what is good and what is bad. in actual fact he is the light given to us BY god, a gift from him to us so that we may change our ways and find the right path.

now i can go onto more of these, and can answer all of them, but i would liek to give u references for the answers, but for now i can say is for you to do a favour for yourself, and look at the debates and lectures by Ahmed Deedat with christians on youtube. these videos are very friendly, they are not hate debates, instead they are friendly talks between deedat and variuous christian speekers who come together to find common ground. After all, the Qur'an asks that we (muslims) should invite and talk with people of the book (bible) and come to common terms, and i am sure the bible calls for this too.

Jamal.

i hop we can be frends

That works for me.

I agree that context is important. The verse that you mentioned has a context that does not agree with your interpretation. Jesus says this in the same passage: " I am in the Father and the Father is in Me." Of course there are some who would argue that the Father is in all of us since He is everywhere but the reverse, being in the Father, can only be true of God although the Hindus take a different viewpoint saying that our spirits can become one with the universal spirit. I have never found that to be so. My spirit has always been finite and fixed in one place at a time.

 

[Spiritone]

If that's rambling, it's the best rambling I've heard in a while. I agree and I was born into a Christian family. I've "searched" in every way I could and wonder why practicing Christians (a lot) have never even read the NT. Also, a lot of those who can quote chapter and verse from all through the Bible don't seem to question any of it after they decide what they have interpreted to be right.
Eventually all people will realize that all were right and wrong and it comes to the same thing--and wonder what all the slaughter and arguing causing pain and suffering was all about. Just my opinion.

 

[Muffled]

G-D doesn't make mistakes, and He doesn't need a second chance a.k.a the second coming.

the church killed Jews because they considered them the devil, according to you they are Antichrist, but yet you claim the same, so you are the Antichrist.

stop acting as a child and don't play with the devil, he might bight your finger off lol. Judaism doesn't believe in devil so you can't bring this idea in argument with me. Or you just trying to insult me because you have nothing else to say.

Your argument is weak just like your idea, I will prove it to you according the this thread.

gen 18:1

Jehovah is the name you use witch is written in there, Lord is the English translation of Jehovah, so you are using this to show me what? don't tell me Jehovah is Jesus and lord is the father, because that would be stupid.

Deuteronomy: ch 18

20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die

21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"

22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Now prove me wrong!!!.

Jesus came during the beginning of the exile, if he was the savior as he promised we should have been saved, but we were exiled, so Jesus did not fulfill his promiss so he is not G-D and he is not Moshiach.

The proof is in the pudding. The difference between me and the medeival church is that they killed or persecuted Jews for being children of the devil but I do what Jesus requires and that is to love the Jews as He does. The medeival church was acting as an anti-christ because it was doing the exact opposite of what Jesus required.

It is amazing how often Judaism does not square up with the Word of God. Do you think the serpent in the garden of Eden was tempting Eve to sin out of the goodness of his heart or was he "of evil" which is what d'evil means. Since Jesus never sinned He is God because only God is good.

You didn't read the fine print He saves His people from sin not death or exile.

 

[Jamal_a_Man]

That works for me.

I agree that context is important. The verse that you mentioned has a context that does not agree with your interpretation. Jesus says this in the same passage: " I am in the Father and the Father is in Me." Of course there are some who would argue that the Father is in all of us since He is everywhere but the reverse, being in the Father, can only be true of God although the Hindus take a different viewpoint saying that our spirits can become one with the universal spirit. I have never found that to be so. My spirit has always been finite and fixed in one place at a time.

Dear Muffled,

Thank you for your reply!

Please, lets have a look at the following verse, where jesus (peace be upon him) says:
- John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I do not really need to go into this verse as it is self explanatory. However, when Jesus (peace be upon him) calls upon his followers (sheep) and he knows them, and they follow him.
This action is much like the messengers of God before Jesus such as Moses, and Ibrahim and also much like Muhammad (peace be upon them all) who came after.

Next: -John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Still speaking regarding his followers, Jesus (peace be upon him) says that he gives them 'eternal life' - [This eternal life is not the life that you normally think about but it refer to spiritual life! if one is spiritually alive then he is on a righteous path and only by following the truth can one be spiritually alive. Conversely, if one is on an evil road and on a path of destruction then he is referred to (back in those days) as one who is Spiritually DEAD!] thus, from the opening part of the sentence we can understand that Jesus ( peace be upon him) give his followers the gift of being spiritually alive by guiding them to the stright path like a shephard guides his sheep.
thus as a result his sheep shall 'not perish' - why not? his sheep will not perish as he (the good shephard) has guided the sheep safely onto the safe/straight/path of righteousness. Once a person is on this good path no one can snatch his sheep away! i.e. they will continue to be rightly guided.

Next: -John 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Firstly when Jesus says father he does not mean his biological Father. Many Christians refer to god as 'Father' also hyms use this word with referece to God such as ' oh Father who art in heaven, hallow be thy name....' Also, people at the time of Jesus used this word with reference to their creator, as it was a way to relat to our creator, and our sustainor.

Jesus (pbuh) says that God has given his followers to him. he doesnt say that 'WE have provided our selves with them', he doesnt say that 'I have given them to myself'. he specifically says that his lord, Father, God has given him his followers, or his good sheep.

V importnat: MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL! Do you know what All means? all means everything! every living thing in creation. however, in this sentence it has one exception amnd that is the lord, god, father of jesus! i.e. God is greater than all humans all living creatures including jesus. If jesus is God or the Son fo God how can he be inferior to God? very easily, as he is also part of creation, and no creation is greater than the creator himself.

Non can snatch them out of my fathers hand: does god have a hand? no. this is a metaphore. this line means that once a person is in the guidance given by Jesus (pbuh) and is on the righteous path and illuminated by the light of God, no one can take them away from God or the righteous path.

Next: - John 10:30 - I and my Father are one

So far the verses have been relating to the purpose of God being the greatest, and Jesus (pbuh) and God both guiding the follwers to the path of righteousness.
so, what does this fianl line mean? does it mean that God and Jesus (pbuh) as one in the same? are they one person? like a sausage? mixed together? no. This line in its context means that God and Jesus are one in the same in Purpose. Both are guiding people to the right path. Both are guiding people to success. Both are one in PURPOSE.

So, how does jesus have such a beautiful title and role such as he illustrated above? i mean, how does he become one in purpose with God? Very simple:

John 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This is because he does not seek his own will but instead the will of God. Once a man stops seeking his own will and does only that which God wills, he is one with god in purpose.




Response @ Muffled: God is in Jesus and Jesus is in God then they must be equal right? so why does Jesus say that my Father is greater than all?

further more, why cannot one be in God and God be in us. I am not talking literally, but in terms of purpose?

Thankyou. Please forgive me if i have offended any one, my aim is not to offend but to discuss and hopefully find common ground and some enlightenment.

Discussion is a Gift, Disputation is not

Jamal

 

[lynx3007]

If that's rambling, it's the best rambling I've heard in a while. I agree and I was born into a Christian family. I've "searched" in every way I could and wonder why practicing Christians (a lot) have never even read the NT. Also, a lot of those who can quote chapter and verse from all through the Bible don't seem to question any of it after they decide what they have interpreted to be right.
Eventually all people will realize that all were right and wrong and it comes to the same thing--and wonder what all the slaughter and arguing causing pain and suffering was all about. Just my opinion.

Only those chosen by God can preach the bible to us. Everyone can read read the bible and interpret it the way they like but... God who is the author of the bible is the one who truly knows all of its meaning. And in our self understanding we cannot achieve the path to the truth. We cannot use our earthly knowledge in understanding the words of God. But by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit we can understand everything for it is the purpose of the Holy Spirit to let us understand everything. I would say that whatever translation the bible is as long as it says truth (and by truth i mean that there should be no contradicting words written in it and that all prophecies were fulfilled) we should believe in everything that it says. Never adding or omitting a single word from it. For it is the only purpose that God wrote the bible for us to attain salvation. And by no other means can we get the knowledge of salvation but by the bible only in this modern times of ours. For many believe in traditions, tales and stories passed through generations which are subjected to errors as it was passed down. If you want understanding, just ask and pray to God to give it to you. I pray the Holy Spirit will guide us.

 

[Jamal_a_Man]

Only those chosen by God can preach the bible to us. Everyone can read read the bible and interpret it the way they like but... God who is the author of the bible is the one who truly knows all of its meaning. And in our self understanding we cannot achieve the path to the truth. We cannot use our earthly knowledge in understanding the words of God. But by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit we can understand everything for it is the purpose of the Holy Spirit to let us understand everything. I would say that whatever translation the bible is as long as it says truth (and by truth i mean that there should be no contradicting words written in it and that all prophecies were fulfilled) we should believe in everything that it says. Never adding or omitting a single word from it. For it is the only purpose that God wrote the bible for us to attain salvation. And by no other means can we get the knowledge of salvation but by the bible only in this modern times of ours. For many believe in traditions, tales and stories passed through generations which are subjected to errors as it was passed down. If you want understanding, just ask and pray to God to give it to you. I pray the Holy Spirit will guide us.

You seem like a very humble person Lynx, and i love that quality in a person. the thing is, if you do not believe in jesus being the son of god, then how can u believe in Christianity? the christianity of today is based on one pillar.

That pillar is that Jesus died for the sins of man. He must have died as a god in order to die for the sins of man. this is because one man cannot carry the sinns of all mena and women who have lived on earth. however, i have shown you in my posts earlier that jesus could not have been god or the son of god, and i think that you too believe this.

So let me ask you. Knowing that Jesus did not die for the sins of man, nor was he god, how can u be a christian? I have many christian friends and each one believes a different thing. You are my new christian friend and you have a completely unique form of thought.

If you believe the bible to be the WORD of GOD, then do you not think that god would tell us in the bible the Name of his book? As the word Bible is no where in the Bible itself. Infact the bible is a nameless book and the word 'Bible' itself just means Book.
Bo you not think god would tell us himself in this bible that this is from him? that his book is the inspired word of god? Nowhere in the bible does the bible say this is the WORD of god, as far as i know.

I am not trying to convert you, i just want you to hear the truth. The truth is that Muhammad was the natural successor after Jesus. Jesus paved the way for Muhammad and as such Muhammad paved the way for Jesus's return.

Here is a quote from the prophet Muhammad (pbuh): 'righteousness is good morality and wrong doing is that which wavers in your soul and dislike people finding out about'

he goes on to say:

'righteousness is that about which the heart feels tranquile and the soul feels tranquile and wrong doing is that which wavers in the soul and moves to and fro in the breath, even though people have given you their legal opinion in its favour'.

Consult your heart.

Jamal

 

[gradysilver]

Grady here, I believe Jesus is the name of the Father,the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Acts, 2,38
and much,much more.

 

[lynx3007]

If that's rambling, it's the best rambling I've heard in a while. I agree and I was born into a Christian family. I've "searched" in every way I could and wonder why practicing Christians (a lot) have never even read the NT. Also, a lot of those who can quote chapter and verse from all through the Bible don't seem to question any of it after they decide what they have interpreted to be right.
Eventually all people will realize that all were right and wrong and it comes to the same thing--and wonder what all the slaughter and arguing causing pain and suffering was all about. Just my opinion.

Only those chosen by God can preach the bible to us. Everyone can read read the bible and interpret it the way they like but... God who is the author of the bible is the one who truly knows all of its meaning. And in our self understanding we cannot achieve the path to the truth. We cannot use our earthly knowledge in understanding the words of God. But by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit we can understand everything for it is the purpose of the Holy Spirit to let us understand everything. I would say that whatever translation the bible is as long as it says truth (and by truth i mean that there should be no contradicting words written in it and that all prophecies were fulfilled) we should believe in everything that it says. Never adding or omitting a single word from it. For it is the only purpose that God wrote the bible for us to attain salvation. And by no other means can we get the knowledge of salvation but by the bible only in this modern times of ours. For many believe in traditions, tales and stories passed through generations which are subjected to errors as it was passed down. If you want understanding, just ask and pray to God to give it to you. I pray the Holy Spirit will guide us.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

That works for me.

I agree that context is important. The verse that you mentioned has a context that does not agree with your interpretation. Jesus says this in the same passage: " I am in the Father and the Father is in Me." Of course there are some who would argue that the Father is in all of us since He is everywhere but the reverse, being in the Father, can only be true of God although the Hindus take a different viewpoint saying that our spirits can become one with the universal spirit. I have never found that to be so. My spirit has always been finite and fixed in one place at a time.

Oh...fooie...!.... What are you rambling about man..!!

What you are paraphrasing above means nothing more than "one in purpose".....

John 17:22-23
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 "I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are--

23 I in them and you in me, all being perfected into one. Then the world will know that you sent me and will understand that you love them as much as you love me.
[/FONT]
One in purpose...tis all....

 

[lynx3007]

Grady here, I believe Jesus is the name of the Father,the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Acts, 2,38
and much,much more.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say that Jesus is the name of God and Holy Spirit. Although yes it is the name of the Son of God. What Acts 2:38 said is that be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Be careful when reading the bible as not to add or omit any word from it. And in the passage alone, it is already clear already without thinking any deeper meaning than it says. It says that for us to be remissioned of our sin, we must be baptized in the name of Jesus and also we shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit as what we can read in Acts 8:16 also. If you read the bible, there are many gifts the Holy Spirit give us. And the baptizing by the name of Jesus means that we should be baptized under the name of Jesus given by God (Phi 2:9). What is this name? It is the name Christ (Acts 2:36). But how could we be baptized under the name of Christ? Christ himself taught us (Mar 16:15). First the gospel must be preached, second we must believe and then we are baptized. . .

 

[Spiritone]

Only those chosen by God can preach the bible to us. Everyone can read read the bible and interpret it the way they like but... God who is the author of the bible is the one who truly knows all of its meaning. And in our self understanding we cannot achieve the path to the truth. We cannot use our earthly knowledge in understanding the words of God. But by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit we can understand everything for it is the purpose of the Holy Spirit to let us understand everything. I would say that whatever translation the bible is as long as it says truth (and by truth i mean that there should be no contradicting words written in it and that all prophecies were fulfilled) we should believe in everything that it says. Never adding or omitting a single word from it. For it is the only purpose that God wrote the bible for us to attain salvation. And by no other means can we get the knowledge of salvation but by the bible only in this modern times of ours. For many believe in traditions, tales and stories passed through generations which are subjected to errors as it was passed down. If you want understanding, just ask and pray to God to give it to you. I pray the Holy Spirit will guide us.

It is well believed by researchers of Biblical events that the Bible was added on to and parts erased. Who knows. We all would do well to study everything about it if we really want to decide for ourselves. But, in the long run it probably does not matter all that much. The important things have been given by Jesus and other religious leaders. I listen to what the original gifted leaders/prophets etc had to say and not influenced any more by what organized religions have to say. For me Jesus said greater things than anyone I have ever read about. He was misunderstood then and now. Now mostly because most people do not study what He said without the conditioning of others. IMO.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

why have you reposted?

It's all good...He's still new. He'll get the hang of it. He should be able to easily find out that he can simply edit or delete his re-post....but it's no bother

 

[Jamal_a_Man]

i feel that i have gone out of my way to look into some of the verses of the bible and then interpret them. however, i would like some of your thoughts on how i have understood them. it seems as tho every one is jus ignoring those posts, why is this so?

i would be very grateful for some feedback.

Jamal

 

[lynx3007]

Many are mislead when reading the chapter 17 of John. Like when Jesus said I and the Father are one. He didn't said that I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE GOD! as what jamal said, we should read it by context. If you read it carefully without subjecting your own interpretation, it is already clear enough. We should not be mislead by our intelligence as we acquired it from earth. The knowledge of knowing the truth about God, truth about Jesus, can only come from above to be given through the Holy Spirit. I know this is too much rumbling on my behalf. But again the bible in itself is clear. Even Apostle Peter said it to us (2Pet 1:20-21). Unless something is not clear to us, then we should not go beyond what is written.

 

[blackout]

Jesus said "may they be one with you father, as you and I are one",
indicating clearly that he did not consider his oneness with the father
to be anything different than the oneness with the father we all have the potential of "being".

 

[lynx3007]

It is well believed by researchers of Biblical events that the Bible was added on to and parts erased. Who knows. We all would do well to study everything about it if we really want to decide for ourselves. But, in the long run it probably does not matter all that much. The important things have been given by Jesus and other religious leaders. I listen to what the original gifted leaders/prophets etc had to say and not influenced any more by what organized religions have to say. For me Jesus said greater things than anyone I have ever read about. He was misunderstood then and now. Now mostly because most people do not study what He said without the conditioning of others. IMO.

We have all undergone the dilemma of asking the purpose of our existence. As why we have this ability to think what is right or wrong or what is the end of our every actions. And in the end there could be no reason for all these that by ourselves we couldn't justify our very own existence. We see the religious leaders of the past and today as mere givers of moral teachings and nothing more. That we justify our existence by seeking a fitting end to our actions. I say this for it is not that we do not understand but the opposite. We understand through enlightenment not born of earthly desires, but of things not in this world. We understand that all things here in earth passes away. We understand that the earth will meet its end. And when that happens, we would be certain that we are justified in our existence... DID WE LIVE OUR LIFE ACCORDING TO OUR PURPOSE? Or are we still living not knowing where to go or what to do... searching for the purpose.

Again too much ramblings... but for me, my end stands with what Jesus left us. What he promised us. I believed him not by my own understanding only, but by faith also.

 

[Jamal_a_Man]

We have all undergone the dilemma of asking the purpose of our existence. As why we have this ability to think what is right or wrong or what is the end of our every actions. And in the end there could be no reason for all these that by ourselves we couldn't justify our very own existence. We see the religious leaders of the past and today as mere givers of moral teachings and nothing more. That we justify our existence by seeking a fitting end to our actions. I say this for it is not that we do not understand but the opposite. We understand through enlightenment not born of earthly desires, but of things not in this world. We understand that all things here in earth passes away. We understand that the earth will meet its end. And when that happens, we would be certain that we are justified in our existence... DID WE LIVE OUR LIFE ACCORDING TO OUR PURPOSE? Or are we still living not knowing where to go or what to do... searching for the purpose.

Again too much ramblings... but for me, my end stands with what Jesus left us. What he promised us. I believed him not by my own understanding only, but by faith also.

so would you say that you would do the same as jesus?

jesus used to fast.... do you fast?
jesus used to pray..... do you pray?
jesus believed in a final messnger by the name of Ahmad, who was going to come after him .... do you believe in this?

i respect your views, and you seem like one who is a critical thinker, but you seem to contradict yourself in saying that you believe in jesus, and him being a man, how then can you be a christian. you are a muslim if you believe in one god, and you are a muslim if you believe jesus was a man sent by god with a mesage.

With regards to the holy ghost. who is the holy ghost. if you believe jesus is a man and not the son of god, then you do not believe in a triune god (a god who is three persons in one) as jesus, according to Catholic christians, is the sonn of god and part of god in a triune theroy.

You seem to be so close, but i can already sense that you, although you may be unawre of it, have a muslim belief. all you need to do now, it to think where the holy ghost fits in, because i can assure you the holy ghost fits nowhere. it would make no sense at all to have God and the holy ghost and then jesus as a man.

the following situation is more plausible:
- God and only GOD,
- Jesus (pbuh) a man and a messenger sent by god.
- Muhammad (pbuh) a messenger also sent by god to perfect his religion.
- no holy ghost. only the will of GOD

there is only one god, and non can be associated with him.

 

[Greatest I am]

You act as if we are supposed to understand everything about God and his motives by using common sense, but how is it possible to understand a creator completely when we are the creation? Mankind can be in God's image but that doesn't imply that he sees things anything like we do, I mean can you even fathom how God, if you will, created the world?

You cannot disprove miracles by using Natural Laws because the implicit conditions are - all other things being equal. They do not contradict science yet they are not governed by natural science. I will say that I think the term miracle is thrown around way too much.

It is and I see you like to use it as well for your creator God.

"Do not contradict science yet are not governed by natural law."
This is a contradiction.

Why do you think, other than hear say or Bible say, that God created you?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The proof is in the pudding. The difference between me and the medeival church is that they killed or persecuted Jews for being children of the devil but I do what Jesus requires and that is to love the Jews as He does. The medeival church was acting as an anti-christ because it was doing the exact opposite of what Jesus required.

It is amazing how often Judaism does not square up with the Word of God. Do you think the serpent in the garden of Eden was tempting Eve to sin out of the goodness of his heart or was he "of evil" which is what d'evil means. Since Jesus never sinned He is God because only God is good.

You didn't read the fine print He saves His people from sin not death or exile.

The talking snake was good for mankind.
Eve did the right thing in reaching out for the knowledge that gave her and us a moral sense.

Would you stop Eve and give up your moral sense?
Do you think that man is complete without a moral sense?

Regards
DL