Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Yes, all of those names work along with genocidal maniac and killer of innocent children and babies.
God has many names to claim.
Regards
DL
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Yes, all of those names work along with genocidal maniac and killer of innocent children and babies.
God has many names to claim.
Regards
DL
Jamal_a_Man
Member
Theres the statement. Now, where's the proof?
arimoff
Active Member
Good question who was the serpent?
Genesis Chapter 3
1. Now the serpent was cunning, more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?'"
He saw them naked and engaging in intercourse before everyone’s eyes, and he desired her. — [from Genesis. Medrash Rabbah 18:6]
I brought this Medrash to show you that he made her sin not because he is the devil. (interesting how the writers of the NT skipped so much details to the stories of the Torah)
5. For God knows that on the day that you eat thereof, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like angels, knowing good and evil.
If the serpent was the devil why didn't he say you will be like us? meaning like G-D and like me? from here we see that the serpent did not hold him self as the devil.
14. And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.
and this is the proof that serpent wasn't a devil, but just another creature.
The question is who are the once not squaring up to the word of G-D? G-D cursed him more then another cattle showing that he is an animal, yet Christians claim him to be the devil, so who are those who miss interpret the text?
As I have shown you the serpent desired her thats why He caused her to sin, sure it is evil on his part but where does the devil comes in to play? I'm sure you meet people everyday who try to do evil to you, are they a devil also? or when we sin we are the devil?
Another point is, he can't be the devil because such concept does not exist in Judaism, so when the story of the serpent was written no devil existed for him to be one.
Jesus never sinned so then he is G-D? or he never sinned because he is G-D?
For a man who is born Jewish to say the way to Father is only through me is already a sin. We believe in only one G-D, it is the main idea of Judaism if you haven't realized that yet, and to accept the idea that we need someone else to find a way to ONE G-D just doesn't make any logical sense.
( did you ever noticed that we don't know how characters of the Torah looked?, that we don't even know on witch mountain the Torah was given? did you ever think why? Idol worship!!!) if my G-D will have long hair with a beard looking young and sexy wearing a long dress, how can he possibly be everywhere? just the idea that he has a certain look already puts a limit on him making me think I can hide and sin. So the concept of Jesus being G-D's son doesn't make sense, why does he need one?.
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Jamal_a_Man
Member
Good question who was the serpent?
Genesis Chapter 3
1. Now the serpent was cunning, more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?'"
He saw them naked and engaging in intercourse before everyones eyes, and he desired her. [from Genesis. Medrash Rabbah 18:6]
I brought this Medrash to show you that he made her sin not because he is the devil. (interesting how the writers of the NT skipped so much details to the stories of the Torah)
5. For God knows that on the day that you eat thereof, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like angels, knowing good and evil.
If the serpent was the devil why didn't he say you will be like us? meaning like G-D and like me? from here we see that the serpent did not hold him self as the devil.
14. And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.
and this is the proof that serpent wasn't a devil, but just another creature.
The question is who are the once not squaring up to the word of G-D? G-D cursed him more then another cattle showing that he is an animal, yet Christians claim him to be the devil, so who are those who miss interpret the text?
As I have shown you the serpent desired her thats why He caused her to sin, sure it is evil on his part but where does the devil comes in to play? I'm sure you meet people everyday who try to do evil to you, are they a devil also? or when we sin we are the devil?
Another point is, he can't be the devil because such concept does not exist in Judaism, so when the story of the serpent was written no devil existed for him to be one.
Jesus never sinned so then he is G-D? or he never sinned because he is G-D?
For a man who is born Jewish to say the way to Father is only through me is already a sin. We believe in only one G-D, it is the main idea of Judaism if you haven't realized that yet, and to accept the idea that we need someone else to find a way to ONE G-D just doesn't make any logical sense.
( did you ever noticed that we don't know how characters of the Torah looked?, that we don't even know on witch mountain the Torah was given? did you ever think why? Idol worship!!!) if my G-D will have long hair with a beard looking young and sexy wearing a long dress, how can he possibly be everywhere? just the idea that he has a certain look already puts a limit on him making me think I can hide and sin. So the concept of Jesus being G-D's son doesn't make sense, why does he need one?.
Jesus was a mere Man, and a Mighty Messenger. when he says 'the way to the father is through me' he is not saying he is the father or the son of god. What he means is that to get to GOD (i.e. be succefull) then one must be of Jesus (i.e. righteous like him). there is no fault in saying that. Messengers, even Moses had the right to say that to his people as the Porphets were the mouth of God (metaphorically speaking).
If you believe in One god, and you believe Jesus was a Man, then i ask you, what is the difference between your belief and a Muslims belief?
Many thanks brother! i hope we can discuss more.
Jamal
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And...maybe...just maybe...it's how people interpret it.
If Yeshua was speaking to a group of lost people and he was trying to steer them on the right track....he could have meant...that by his example is the way to God sense he felt as though they lost their way. May be this is why he said he was only sent to the "lost" sheep of the house of Israel. I'm not arguing he was the Messiah....rather he believed he was sent to guide his people back to the right way. I tend to think people complicate the messages and some ignore the context altogether. I'm in no way arguing for or against Yeshua but simply giving an opinion....
GREATEST I AM-
The seemingly talking snake according to Revelation (12:9,12) is the original 'snake in the grass' back in Eden called Devil and Satan which brings 'woe' to earth.
If that old snake was good for mankind then why is there no peace on earth when the majority of people want peace on earth?
Is knowledge the same as morals? By disobedience they had a particular knowledge of self-determination to choose for themselves what was right or wrong in their eyes rather then following God's guidelines as to what was in mankind's best interest.
Isn't there both good moral sense and bad moral sense?
Man, unlike animals, was created with a conscience. Unless damaged the conscience can be a good guide especially if it is trained in Bible morality.
By reaching out Eve ate us out of a house and home that we should be enjoying in a paradise earth . The garden was to be expanded until it's blooms covered the whole earth for all to enjoy forever and ever.
The seemingly talking snake according to Revelation (12:9,12) is the original 'snake in the grass' back in Eden called Devil and Satan which brings 'woe' to earth.
If that old snake was good for mankind then why is there no peace on earth when the majority of people want peace on earth?
Is knowledge the same as morals? By disobedience they had a particular knowledge of self-determination to choose for themselves what was right or wrong in their eyes rather then following God's guidelines as to what was in mankind's best interest.
Isn't there both good moral sense and bad moral sense?
Man, unlike animals, was created with a conscience. Unless damaged the conscience can be a good guide especially if it is trained in Bible morality.
By reaching out Eve ate us out of a house and home that we should be enjoying in a paradise earth . The garden was to be expanded until it's blooms covered the whole earth for all to enjoy forever and ever.
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lynx3007
missionary
Dear Jamal,
I was rather late on my reply on your comment. I am strictly biblical person which means the doctrines that I follow are only those in the bible alone. As you would notice I quote verses on the bible where i based my comments.
When you said that I live like what Jesus lived, of course I strive to imitate his life. But as we have known through the bible that the Lord Jesus has not sinned in his entire life. A feat that no other man can do and never will. We all want to be perfect but the only thing we can achieve is perfecting the process of perfection. You ask if I fast, yes i do my friend. But not in the ways others do but by what the bible has taught me to do. In the first place what is fasting:
Isa 58:3 They say, Why have we fasted, and You did not see? We have afflicted our soul, and You did not acknowledge. Behold, on the day of your fast you find pleasure; and you drive all your laborers hard.
Isa 58:4 Look! You fast for strife, and for debate, and to strike with the fist of wickedness. Do not fast as today, to sound your voice in the high place.
Isa 58:5 Is this like the fast I will choose, a day for a man to afflict his soul? To bow his head down like a bulrush, and he spreads sackcloth and ashes? Will you call to this as a fast and a day of delight to Jehovah?
Isa 58:6 Is this not the fast I have chosen: to open bands of wickedness, to undo thongs of the yoke, and to send out the oppressed ones free; even that you pull off every yoke?
Yes Jesus did fast:
Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil.
Mat 4:2 And having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards He hungered.
And his disciples also:
Act 13:2 And while they were doing service to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, So then separate both Barnabas and Saul to Me, for the work to which I have called them.
Act 13:3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and placing hands on them, they let them go.
What then is the purpose of fasting?:
Mat 17:15 Lord, pity my son. For he is moonstruck and suffers miserably. For he often falls into the fire, and often into the water.
Mat 17:16 And I brought him to Your disciples, and they were not able to heal him.
Mat 17:17 And answering, Jesus said, O faithless and perverted generation! Until when shall I be with you? Until when shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.
Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked it, and the demon came out from him; and the boy was healed from that hour.
Mat 17:19 Then coming up to Jesus privately, the disciples said, Why were we not able to cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief. For truly I say to you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard, you will say to this mountain, Move from here to there! And it will move. And nothing shall be impossible to you.
Mat 17:21 But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.
I would not explain fasting as the verses i showed you already tells everything about it. No need to add ideas. You asked if I pray, I will tell my belief by these verses:
What is prayer?:
Phi 4:6 Be anxious about nothing, but in everything by prayer and by petition with thanksgivings, let your requests be made known to God;
Heb 13:15 Then through Him let us offer up a sacrifice of praise to God always, that is, the fruit of the lips, confessing to His name.
1Co 14:13 So then, the one speaking in a language, let him pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What then is it? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the mind.
1Co 14:16 Else, if you bless in the spirit, the one occupying the place of the unlearned, how will he say the amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you say?
Why do we pray?:
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that you do not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is eager, but the flesh is weak.
Jam 5:16 Confess to one another the deviations from the Law, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. Very strong is a righteous petition, being made effective.
How often do we pray?:
Luk 18:1 And He also spoke a parable to them to teach it is always right to pray, and not to faint,
In showing these I will tell you that yes I pray everytime.
But sorry I do not believe that Jesus told about a final messenger by the name of Ahmad. Although I believe that he would sent someone during this last days to be his final messenger and rebuilt the original church he founded.
Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep which are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd.
In this verse Jesus, told his disciples of another fold of sheep which do not belong in the church of their time.
I respect your belief about Ahmad as God's last Messenger here on Earth. But i also believe that God's last messenger will appear on this last days and only purpose he will be sent is to re-establish the church that Lord Jesus founded which was apostized after all the faithful disciples died.
Thank you Jamal,
Lynx
Christians, not being under the Mosaic law, then are neither under command to fast, nor prohibited from doing so as Romans (14:3,6) brings out.
1st Corinthians (8:8) also brings to our attention that food does Not commend us to God,
if we do not eat we do not fall short, and if we eat, we have no credit to ourselves.
The Kingdom of God (Romans 14:17) does not mean eating and drinking but righteousness and peace and joy with holy spirit.
1st Corinthians (8:8) also brings to our attention that food does Not commend us to God,
if we do not eat we do not fall short, and if we eat, we have no credit to ourselves.
The Kingdom of God (Romans 14:17) does not mean eating and drinking but righteousness and peace and joy with holy spirit.
lynx3007
missionary
I agree that fasting by avoiding a certain food is not the way of a Christian,
Hence fasting by abstaining from foods is a doctrine of demons. The fasting I was referring to was not by food but by actions. We should first try to understand what does fasting to God means and what is the importance of doing so. Its not just exposing ourselves to pain and hunger. It is beyond physical gratification. Please read this verses:
Yes, how right -'actions'. Good point about actions because God wants repentance over sins to gain his favor (Eze 18:23,32). For anything to be meaningful correction of past sins is needed. Isaiah (58:6) asks heart-searching questions because to loosen or open the bands of wickedness, release the yoke bar, send the oppressed ones free, and pull off their yoke bar was meaningful in that fetters and yoke bars were apt symbols of harsh bondage. They should be obeying the command of Lev. (19:18) to love their fellow as self and release all those unjustly held. Yes, no religious act is a suitable substitute for godly devotion or actions that demonstrate brotherly love.
Isaiah's contemporary wrote to practice justice, love kindness and be modest in walking with God. -MIcah 6:8 We can perceive that justice, kindness and modesty calls for the action of doing good to others that is why Isaiah (58:7) could ask to break bread with the needy, clothe your brother..... so the one having the means to do so should act to give food, clothing, shelter to their needy 'brother' a fellow inhabitant - their own flesh.
Those chosen verses of Isaiah (58:2-7) are very beautiful because they express principles of brotherly love and compassion and apply as a guide for Christians as Paul expressed at Gal. (6:10) to do good to all, especially to those related to us in the faith.
That action, not fasting, would make the Christian congregation a haven of brotherly affection especially living in the world of badness surrounding all today.
2 Tim 3:1-5,13; James 1:27.
Isaiah adds, in verses 8-10, warm appealing words that God protects and rewards those that delight in repentance of their harsh treatment to others and obey Him, then things will get much brighter for them spiritually because selfishness and harshness are self defeating, whereas kindness and generosity, especially shown to the afflicted, brings God's favor. Spiritual radiance and spiritual prosperity would make them shine dispelling gloom like the bright midday sun. Wouldn't this be beyond physical gratification because it brings praise to the One that is the source of that joy?
Isaiah's contemporary wrote to practice justice, love kindness and be modest in walking with God. -MIcah 6:8 We can perceive that justice, kindness and modesty calls for the action of doing good to others that is why Isaiah (58:7) could ask to break bread with the needy, clothe your brother..... so the one having the means to do so should act to give food, clothing, shelter to their needy 'brother' a fellow inhabitant - their own flesh.
Those chosen verses of Isaiah (58:2-7) are very beautiful because they express principles of brotherly love and compassion and apply as a guide for Christians as Paul expressed at Gal. (6:10) to do good to all, especially to those related to us in the faith.
That action, not fasting, would make the Christian congregation a haven of brotherly affection especially living in the world of badness surrounding all today.
2 Tim 3:1-5,13; James 1:27.
Isaiah adds, in verses 8-10, warm appealing words that God protects and rewards those that delight in repentance of their harsh treatment to others and obey Him, then things will get much brighter for them spiritually because selfishness and harshness are self defeating, whereas kindness and generosity, especially shown to the afflicted, brings God's favor. Spiritual radiance and spiritual prosperity would make them shine dispelling gloom like the bright midday sun. Wouldn't this be beyond physical gratification because it brings praise to the One that is the source of that joy?
arimoff
Active Member
But the problem is not only if Jesus was G-D, was he G-D's messenger. what concerns Judaism Jesus doesn't play any kind of a role, to go even dipper, He hasn't done anything to be called G-D's messenger, but thats according to Judaism. (just another man to call him self messiah).
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
what concerns your other question, there is no difference in believing in One G-D, we do believe in the same G-D, what concerns everything else as a comparativeness, I would say there is none, same problems come up as with Christianity.
Brother if you are Muslim I would guess you suppose to know that we believe in the same G-D. Or Islam changed so much that people are not aware of it anymore?
lynx3007
missionary
Going back to our thread, almost all religions today claiming to be Christians believe in the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. They could not accept that such doctrine was only made by man. As history would tell us, this belief started during the 3rd Century, Year of the Lord. At that time, Roman Emperor Constantine convined the First Council of Nicaea.
There, council of Bishops debated some of their beliefs and the outcome resulted in the creation of the Creed of Nicaea wherein included that Jesus Christ is of no less than the Father, the Almighty God.
Remember that it was already in the 3rd century that this belief was invented. During the time of Christ and the Apostles, they did not preach such things.
As we could read in John 17:1,3, Jesus told us who the only true God is and he was only sent by the only true God.
Apostle John in his second epistle stated that:
And in the epistle of Apostle Paul:
There will come that will proclaim a Jesus that was different from the Jesus the Apostles proclaimed. But what kind of Jesus did the Apostles proclaimed?:
It is clear therefore that Jesus was a Man from God. Not a God of God (As dictated in the Creed of Nicaea) but a Man from God. He did some miracles and work of wonders but that was done by God through Jesus. Therefore going back to the antichrist, we now know that those who will proclaim a Jesus different from the Jesus proclaimed by the Apostles (which is Jesus was a man) is the antichrist.
I hope i have shed some light to those who do not wish to recieve the truth about the Lord Jesus.
There, council of Bishops debated some of their beliefs and the outcome resulted in the creation of the Creed of Nicaea wherein included that Jesus Christ is of no less than the Father, the Almighty God.
Remember that it was already in the 3rd century that this belief was invented. During the time of Christ and the Apostles, they did not preach such things.
As we could read in John 17:1,3, Jesus told us who the only true God is and he was only sent by the only true God.
Apostle John in his second epistle stated that:
Take note that the antichrist would not confess that Jesus was of flesh or was a MAN. Therefore the apostles believed that Jesus was of flesh.
And in the epistle of Apostle Paul:
There will come that will proclaim a Jesus that was different from the Jesus the Apostles proclaimed. But what kind of Jesus did the Apostles proclaimed?:
It is clear therefore that Jesus was a Man from God. Not a God of God (As dictated in the Creed of Nicaea) but a Man from God. He did some miracles and work of wonders but that was done by God through Jesus. Therefore going back to the antichrist, we now know that those who will proclaim a Jesus different from the Jesus proclaimed by the Apostles (which is Jesus was a man) is the antichrist.
I hope i have shed some light to those who do not wish to recieve the truth about the Lord Jesus.
arimoff
Active Member
Yes but what is your point?
lynx3007
missionary
are you two talking about the covenant through Abraham? When God made a promise to Abraham...?
arimoff
Active Member
oooooh yes yes, the old story, so I was wrong when I said we believe in the same G-D, I guess Muslims believe in the same G-D we do, so it is basically the same story as with Christians.
but that is an argument for different thread.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Dear Muffled,
Thank you for your reply!
- John 10:27 -
-John 10:28 Next: .
John 5:30
Response @ Muffled: God is in Jesus and Jesus is in God then they must be equal right? so why does Jesus say that my Father is greater than all?
further more, why cannot one be in God and God be in us. I am not talking literally, but in terms of purpose?
Thankyou. Please forgive me if i have offended any one, my aim is not to offend but to discuss and hopefully find common ground and some enlightenment.
Discussion is a Gift, Disputation is not
Jamal
I love that you believe in context so I will hold your feet to the fire on it. John 10 is not in context with John 14. (For the sake of a later message neither is John 17)
A little set theory will help you get over this concept: A set that exists contiguous with another set is equivalent. However Jesus is not a unitary set (one set) but two sets: physical body and spirit. When the spirit speaks through the mind it has its own identity which is contiguous with the identity of God but when the mind of the body speaks it is not contiguous with God. So although the set of the spirit living in Jesus is one with the Father the set of the physical body is not but is subserviant to the spirit within.
You could be if you were omnipresent. Do you have any consiousness of what is going on at the planet Mars or Saturn or Jupiter? Does your consciousness see what is happening in Djibouti? If your consciousness is tied to your body then you are finite and can't be one with an omnipresent God.
Words have meaning. If a person wishes to say that he is one in purpose he would say so. Jesus does not say he is one in purpose with the Father but simply says that He and the Father are one. Obviously God is not schizophrenic so being one with the Father also means that He has the same purpose as the Father. As an example Joe Shmoe meets me at the Mall and John Smith meets me at the grocery store. Later they get together and talk about meeting me. but although they may have perceived me as two different persons, I tell them that I am really the same person. The person who Joe met at the mall and the person who John met at the grocery store are one.
Now I can discuss another verse in the context paraphrased: Philip says show us the Father and Jesus says I have been with you all this time and somehow didn't know that when you see me you are seeing the Father. However no-one can see a spirit so what is Jesus talking about? Philip saw God in action ie talking, healing, loving, judging, praying and any other action that God might take. For instance Moses saw God when he saw the Red Sea part but he never said that he and God were one or that the miracle was coming from him.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is basically a lie of the devil. He would love to convince you that his lies are equivalent to the truth of God but that will never be. Jesus is the truth. As the Father says at the Transfiguration: Listen to Him.
TheGodless1
Member
The divinity of Christ was voted on by the Council of Nicea around 400 A.D. and that has been proven. Enough said?