Did Jesus say he was God???

[idav]

John 10:33, like 1:1c, has an anarthrous and should be read as "Thou make thyself to be a god". That's the whole reason he quotes Psalm 82:6 right afterwards, which says "gods".

His argument being that we are all gods and sons of the most high. His disagreement with the accusers was that what he was saying wasn't blasphemous but scriptural. I can't understand how trinitarians figure Jesus was truly being blasphemous as the accusations suggested.

 

[Shermana]

The accusation of his blasphemy was similar to the Pharisee accusation that he wasn't washing his hands, meaningless. However, if a wrong claimant to Moshiach (or Prophethood) started saying some of the things he said, he'd be liable for stones.

 

[Rasheed Saeed]

I haven't read every single post, so this might have already been covered.

To define the assumption Jesus calming to be God doesn't add up to his sacrifice of his own son, Jesus. So God is punishing us for his "sacrifice" of his son(Though, he says we are all his children), Jesus. But Jesus is God is he not? So this circle will keep back-firing.

 

[javajo]

So God is punishing us for his "sacrifice" of his son, Jesus.

God punished his Son instead of punishing us.

(Though, he says we are all his children)

Before we trust Jesus to have taken our punishment, we are children of darkness, wrath and the Devil.

But Jesus is God is he not?

Of course. The Bible says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. The Son was conceived of the Holy Spirit and the virgin and is the express image of the invisible Father, God Incarnate, God with us.

 

[Shermana]

The Bible says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.

I think you mean to say the KJV says that, and the version of this verse (1 John 5:7) only shows up in the Greek in 16th century manuscripts. It was added into the Latin.

 

[convinceme]

so.. did jesus claim to be god or not? also, wasnt the new testament written hundreds of years after he dies? how can it be a trustworthy source of information??

 

[Rasheed Saeed]

God punished his Son instead of punishing us.
Invalid. God punished himself, not his son. Jesus was not God's son as Jesus was God, you said it yourself.

Before we trust Jesus to have taken our punishment, we are children of darkness, wrath and the Devil.
If I am correct, God Plan implicates everything planed out on the Earth and Universe. So he planes our birth, death, when we're going to the shop at the specific date. God plan is everything to do with us, and God does it for good reasons. Now I don't want to go into God's plan as it includes Abortions, which I don't like. I mean com'on. He's planed our death. So it's safe to say including "God's plan" your argument of we are children of the darkness and such, is ridicules.

 

[javajo]

I think you mean to say the KJV says that, and the version of this verse (1 John 5:7) only shows up in the Greek in 16th century manuscripts. It was added into the Latin.

Its in my Bible. This is in my Bible, too: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Mathew 28:9

But it makes sense, the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Conceived the Son of the Father. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, God in human form, the express image of God, not an angel, but much higher than and worshiped by the angels as Hebrews 1 clearly teaches.

so.. did jesus claim to be god or not?

What do you think?

wasnt the new testament written hundreds of years after he dies? how can it be a trustworthy source of information??

No, it was written very soon afterward and there are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts we can compare, which is far, far more than any other ancient text.

Invalid. God punished himself, not his son. Jesus was not God's son as Jesus was God, you said it yourself.

Isn't that wonderful, God loved us so much he took on human form and died in our place to reconcile all who believe that to himself?

So it's safe to say including "God's plan" your argument of we are children of the darkness and such, is ridicules.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Ephesians 2:3

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: Ephesians 5:8

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:10

 

[Dirty Penguin]

John 10:33, like 1:1c, has an anarthrous and should be read as "Thou make thyself to be a god". That's the whole reason he quotes Psalm 82:6 right afterwards, which says "gods".

Right. It wouldn't and doesn't make any sense contextually that it should end (God) whereas (a god) makes the conversation understandable.

Theirs
Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

vs.

This
Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself a god.” Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said you are gods?'

 

[Shermana]

Its in my Bible. This is in my Bible, too: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Mathew 28:9

Yes, but "your Bible" is not "The" Bible. Perhaps you may be a King James onlyist, but you need to know the difference between "The Bible" and "Your version/translation". Likewise, Matthew 28:19 does not say they are one, and not only that, many scholars doubt the authenticity of the "Formula", Eusebius quotes it 20x only using "In my name" without mentioning the other two, and that is how it appears in Acts as well. Regardless, it does not say they are one. The fact that it shows up as an interpolation in spurious parts of Epistles like Ignatius doesn't help its case either. That is a commonly seen Trinitarian attempt to read into the text something that's not there, and from a disputed passage to begin with.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

so.. did jesus claim to be god or not?

No. Never did. Neither implicitly or explicitly.

also, wasnt the new testament written hundreds of years after he dies? how can it be a trustworthy source of information??

Nah. They were written at various points in time. Try this site out. It should help.

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

 

[javajo]

Right. It wouldn't and doesn't make any sense contextually that it should end (God) whereas (a god) makes the conversation understandable.

Theirs
Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

vs.

This
Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself a god.” Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said you are gods?'

That's all very nice and thought out, but it makes little sense when you understand Jesus said I and the Father are one, and that is what they wanted to stone him for. Jesus was not calling himself 'a' god, but their God equal to the Father. He said he could forgive their sins and grant them eternal life which they knew only their one true God could do.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

so.. did jesus claim to be god or not? also, wasnt the new testament written hundreds of years after he dies? how can it be a trustworthy source of information??

Jesus made No claim to be God.
None of his followers ever said he was God.

John wrote Jesus was God's first heavenly creation at Rev. 3v14 B.

John completed his gospel of John in about the year 98.
The Bible was completed by the end of the first century.

Hundreds of years later the 'church' merely testified as to what was already accepted as the Word [Bible] of God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's all very nice and thought out, but it makes little sense when you understand Jesus said I and the Father are one, and that is what they wanted to stone him for. Jesus was not calling himself 'a' god, but their God equal to the Father. He said he could forgive their sins and grant them eternal life which they knew only their one true God could do.

How do you explain that Jesus prayed his followers be one just as he and his Father are one at John 17 vs11,21,22,23 ?
Was Jesus praying they all be God ?

Jesus could forgive sins because God was his Father granting the heavenly Jesus to be born on earth without human imperfection, and Jesus shed blood [1st John 1v7] would provide release from inherited sin because God provided for us that Jesus be our ransom releasing us from adamic sins.- Matt 20v28 B.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Its in my Bible. This is in my Bible, too: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Mathew 28:9

But it makes sense, the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Conceived the Son of the Father. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, God in human form, the express image of God, not an angel, but much higher than and worshiped by the angels as Hebrews 1 clearly teaches.

What do you think? No, it was written very soon afterward and there are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts we can compare, which is far, far more than any other ancient text.

Regardless. It's an interpolation.

Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History (The History of the Church)
"But the rest of the apostles, who were harassed in innumerable ways with a view to destroy them and drive them from the land of Judea, had gone forth to preach the Gospel to all the nations, relying upon the aid of Christ, when he said, 'Go ye, teach all nations in my name.' Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, translated by C.F. Cruse,(1998) Book 3, Chap. 5, page 70

The Theophania
"Our Saviour said to them therefore, after His resurrection, 'Go ye and make Disciples of all nations in my name.' And these things He said, who formerly had commanded: "In the way of the Gentiles go ye not," but enjoined them that they should preach to the Jews only. But, when these abused their inviters, then He dismissed the servants the second time, and said, "go ye out into the ways and paths, and all that ye find call to the feast." The Theophania from the Syriac, Text edited by Samuel Lee, London 1842. Cambridge 1843, page 242

The Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator, or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.' The Oration in Praise of Constantine, Chap. 16, page 907-908 of The Master Christian Library, Version 6.02

So originally it was never quoted like you have in your bibles. Remember, your bibles are copies, of copies, of copies that have been translation and re-translated. There have been a lot of interpolations found over the centuries.

 

[javajo]

How do you explain that Jesus prayed his followers be one just as he and his Father are one at John 17 vs11,21,22,23 ?
Was Jesus praying they all be God ?No, he was praying they be as one just as he and the Father are one. That they be in one accord since they are in Christ and he is in the Father they will be in unity. Also, as a side note; they are like a barrel in a barrel in a barrel and sealed tight. To get to a believer one would have to get through the seal of the Holy Spirit, through the Father and then through the Son, an impossible feat.

Jesus could forgive sins because God was his Father granting the heavenly Jesus to be born on earth without human imperfection, and Jesus shed blood [1st John 1v7] would provide release from inherited sin because God provided for us that Jesus be our ransom releasing us from adamic sins.- Matt 20v28 B.

Jesus could forgive sin because he is God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Did God ever state that Jesus is God, or rather call Jesus his Son ?

-Rev. 3v14 B.... the beginning of the creation by God.

 

[javajo]

Regardless. It's an interpolation.

Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History (The History of the Church)
"But the rest of the apostles, who were harassed in innumerable ways with a view to destroy them and drive them from the land of Judea, had gone forth to preach the Gospel to all the nations, relying upon the aid of Christ, when he said, 'Go ye, teach all nations in my name.' Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, translated by C.F. Cruse,(1998) Book 3, Chap. 5, page 70

The Theophania
"Our Saviour said to them therefore, after His resurrection, 'Go ye and make Disciples of all nations in my name.' And these things He said, who formerly had commanded: "In the way of the Gentiles go ye not," but enjoined them that they should preach to the Jews only. But, when these abused their inviters, then He dismissed the servants the second time, and said, "go ye out into the ways and paths, and all that ye find call to the feast." The Theophania from the Syriac, Text edited by Samuel Lee, London 1842. Cambridge 1843, page 242

The Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator, or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.' The Oration in Praise of Constantine, Chap. 16, page 907-908 of The Master Christian Library, Version 6.02

So originally it was never quoted like you have in your bibles. Remember, your bibles are copies, of copies, of copies that have been translation and re-translated. There have been a lot of interpolations found over the centuries.

Its in my Bible.

The Epistle of Ignatius (a student of the Apostle John) to the Philippians, in Chapter 2 (see here) says, Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost....".

Tertullian, c. (200 AD) (see here writes in On Baptism, Chapter XIII: "For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." and in Against Praxeas, chapter 2 says, "After His resurrection ..He commands them to baptize into the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost".

Hippolytus (170-236 AD) says in Fragments: Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical.--Against the Heresy of One Noetus, "gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Cyprian (200-258AD) in The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian says, And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." and alludes to the same passage in other places as well.

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) in A Sectional Confession of Faith, XIII (see here says, "....the Lord sends forth His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?" (tektonics.org)

 

[idav]

Did God ever state that Jesus is God, or rather call Jesus his Son ?

-Rev. 3v14 B.... the beginning of the creation by God.

There is the account when being baptized "this is my son with whom I'm well pleased" or something like that. Also Jesus never said he was our father.

 

[javajo]

Did God ever state that Jesus is God

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever. Hebrews 1:8

or rather call Jesus his Son ?

This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Mathew 17:5b