Did Jesus say he was God???

[1robin]

I'm not buying it because all I see with the above is a fabrication, and it could have very easily been explained by Jesus and understood by the apostles if he had said and taught them that "I am God".

I would recommend you watch a Dr. James White debate against Shabir Alli on Jesus being God. They are both extremely good scholars. Shabir is the best Islam has and you will find White makes a case that simply can't be denied from scripture in details I will bet you never even heard of. It is the best that debates can get. I used to think showing Christ was God was impossible to a convincing level but White makes it look like child's play.

 

[icebuddy]

Jensen,
I found a free hour today to respond to one of your posts. I go down the list, for example Im on post 8797 and see that there has been allot of posting going on. Having our business I have to wear many hats and my time is limited...

.
My answer...Yes, God wrote the bible by inspiration to those that penned it. John was inspired to tell things how they actually happened and those in opposition to Jesus are the ones that accused Jesus of making himself out to being God. Not that God himself was saying that Jesus is god through his opposers.

When i read the text, John 5:18, I see John explaining why they wanted to kill Jesus. At no point did John through the holy spirit say they were wrong. But when I read it, John points out why Jesus was equal to God. The question is: was this John writing why they tired to kill Jesus or was this John just saying what the Jews where thinking. Then the second question that I would ask myself, why then didnt God through John say they were in error? instead he went on as if they where correct in saying Jesus was equal to God in being his Son. This also shows me that the way "God" is used is in a nature type of way. Example: I am fully man and my Son is also fully man.

My answer....My question was about you and what you believe....not Thomas...not what many believe.

You said I had preconceived ideas, i was testing whos ideas are preconceived. For example: If Jesus was in front of both of us, would you struggle to say to Jesus, My Lord and My God"? i would not

I would never refer to Jesus as other than what the bible actually says he is.

The Bible calls Jesus God, Mighty God (as YHWH), Alpha and Omega, First and Last, and many many more. Yet you see them as very different from me at some level. i do not know why

...the Christ and Messiah and Son of God, as that is what the bible says, and Jesus says that God is the only true God. John 17:3

You point to john 17:3 as if it excludes Jesus as our True God, and it does not. Ask yourself a question: to have eternal life is to know God and a creature or Just God? some may look at the English word "and" and think it drives a wedge between Jesus and God. But it really includes Jesus as our God and Savior as seen in the OT was YHWH, but revealed in the NT as Father and Son. The way we should be reading this is: this is eternal life: that they may know the only True God also Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "AND" means Likewise, also, both, and, even...

Why when one reads that Jehovah is "God and Savior", they dont drive a wedge between God and Savior, yet when one reads "True God and Jesus" one drives a wedge between God and Jesus? Is Jesus part of the equation of True God and Eternal Life or is he not? I read it this way: Now this is Eternal life, that they may know you, the true God including Jesus who was sent. What rings in my head is God and with God, in the Form of God and emptied himself to be sent in the form of man...

My answer....It seems that you are dismissing the verse above to go to other things...Jesus referred to God as his Father and himself as the Son. Actually quite simple, not that hard to understand now is it?

i dont disagree with you. I believe that Jesus was God and emptied himself to become the son of God. Gods son is fully part and equal to God himself. What I think some people do is they see Jesus and focus on his lowered state of existance and forget where or who he was before he became a man. The JW answer this by claiming Jesus to be a created angel Micheal. Yet the Bible says the Father never said to an angel "You are my Son" and also says no angel will inherit Gods Kingdom. That alone show defuse that thought, but it doesnt. However, God is not a name. God is a designation of whatever masters ones life. There are many false gods, but only one true God the Father and the Son (Also the Holy Spirit)

My answer...I would never look to Jesus and say he is God, as Jesus himself says otherwise. To do so is idolatry. Also you make the discussion murky when trying to tell me what I believe, leave that out and discuss the topic, Tom.

I will say all day long that Jesus is God to the glory of the Father. This is what I believe is very dangerous: To look to the image of God and say, "Not God". I would like to ask another question: would you worship Jesus or avoid that? BTW, to say one can look to Jesus and wrongfully idolize him is crazy to me. FYI, I Idolize Jesus! For Jesus is the image of the invisible God, exactly expressing God by his very being, and Thomas saw that and said directly to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". To elude that one can lift Jesus up too high is bizarre and I dont know where this thought comes from. Are we ever warned to not lift Jesus up too high? The warning I see is at 2Cor4:4-6
The Devil is Blinding from seeing not Lifting Jesus up. Think about it:

Would the Devil look to the Image of God and say "Not God or God"
Would the devil lift Jesus up too high or too low?
Would the Devil say "Idolize Jesus or Dont Idolize Jesus"?

My answer...Again, you seem to miss the point( and veer off elsewhere) in that I posted that to show that Jesus and his God are not the same God, but two separate entities. One the Son the other God the Father.

You are also focused on a Jesus who was God and emptied Himself to become that 2nd entity that man saw 2000+ years ago. It was clear to me how we think so differently. Look at this and see:

God and Savior = 1 or 2
God and Jesus = 1 or 2
God and Son = 1 or 2

*** Nothing changes in those passages, yet our minds are processing the word "and" differently. How do you view

God and Father = 1 or 2

It is my belief that God Almighty is expressing himself to save us in the father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I believe God himself is our savior and that all 3 persons of what I call the Trinity are him. Not that God created a being to die for us or that I owe any other creature anything. Is Jesus God of the Old Testament before he emptied himself or not is what we might see differently. So when the Father points Jesus out as Jehovah at Hebrews 1:10-12 I believe this can only be spoken of God and not a created creature or angel. Can anyone but God say, "in the beginning I laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. They shall perish; but I remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt I fold them up, and they shall be changed: but I art the same, and My years shall not fail. (If Jesus was not God could this be said of him?)

My answer....the verse above again shows that Jesus is not his own God, but that they are totally separate entities.

hence the Trinity

My answer....no I don't think so being that I posted this verse to support that Jesus is not God. This is getting too long so will answer the rest of your post in another reply.

Where do you place Jesus before he "Emptied" himself? We both agree that we see Jesus in this lowered state of existence. But what was Jesus before in your belief. Do you place Jesus as Jehovah, and Angel, or what...

When we read Jesus Created the Heavens and the Earth, how to you see him creating? As God himself or as something else? Please explain what it is for me...

 

[metis]

I would recommend you watch a Dr. James White debate against Shabir Alli on Jesus being God. They are both extremely good scholars. Shabir is the best Islam has and you will find White makes a case that simply can't be denied from scripture in details I will bet you never even heard of. It is the best that debates can get. I used to think showing Christ was God was impossible to a convincing level but White makes it look like child's play.

My guess is that you say as such because that's what you believe in, and White works from the exact same scriptures that you and I have read, so I really don't expect any surprises. However, do you have a link?

 

[Jensen]

I believe John 17:3 says no such thing. You will have to prove it does.

Being that it was said by Jesus, maybe you need to convince Jesus that it says no such thing....good luck with that.


John 17:3King James Version


3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (notice here that he is speaking to someone other than himself) the only true God, (and this "thee" that he is speaking to is the only true God) and Jesus Christ, (that would be someone (Jesus) other than that only true God) whom thou (speaking to the only true God again) hast sent.


Nowhere did Jesus say he is God. You convince Jesus first....Okay?

 

[Desert Snake]

Being that it was said by Jesus, maybe you need to convince Jesus that it says no such thing....good luck with that.


John 17:3King James Version


3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (notice here that he is speaking to someone other than himself) the only true God, (and this "thee" that he is speaking to is the only true God) and Jesus Christ, (that would be someone (Jesus) other than that only true God) whom thou (speaking to the only true God again) hast sent.


Nowhere did Jesus say he is God. You convince Jesus first....Okay?

Sure would be nice to know which Deity Jesus was talking about. That aside, Jesus is called 'the Creator' of the heavens and the earth, besides being called God. That means that regardless of what the other passages ""say"", He's worthy of worship, as God.
Remember, we're talking about a Bible that had varying authors and had to be 'ok' with numerous people.

 

[Jensen]

In Answer to John 5:18 ( I read the entire chapter and no where does it say that Jesus is God.)

In John 10:36 he does say who he is....
JOHN 10:

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


In the future Tom, I will not be re-answering what I've answered before.
The Thomas issue was already answered, if you wish to look back at back posts....

 

[Jensen]

Sure would be nice to know which Deity Jesus was talking about. That aside, Jesus is called 'the Creator' of the heavens and the earth, besides being called God. That means that regardless of what the other passages ""say"", He's worthy of worship, as God.
Remember, we're talking about a Bible that had varying authors and had to be 'ok' with numerous people.

The deity that Jesus believed in, remember his saying...."my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17

 

[Jensen]

You point to john 17:3 as if it excludes Jesus as our True God, and it does not.

And so you are re-writing the very words of Christ?

He said "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3

He was speaking to someone (God) other than himself that he was calling the only true God.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


God has never been dead.


Tom, please keep your answers and posts short.

 

[psychoslice]

I am one in consciousness or the source, everything is part of the source, I can do nothing without the source.......now am I saying I am the source ?.

 

[Jensen]

You are also focused on a Jesus who was God and emptied Himself to become that 2nd entity that man saw 2000+ years ago. It was clear to me how we think so differently.

Apparently it isn't clear, or you do not heed what I do say in my posts....as the above is wrong. I do not focus on or believe that Jesus was God before he emptied himself....

 

[Jensen]

It appears that the little arrows in the quote boxes do not work anymore. It should take one back to the post that is being answered. Anyone having this problem?

 

[Nada]

It appears that the little arrows in the quote boxes do not work anymore. It should take one back to the post that is being answered. Anyone having this problem?

No, but i cannot see my pics in my albums.Its just a ?
Only when I click on it can I see them. I cannot wait until they fix all of this.

 

[Jensen]

I had a hard time finding this topic, as it appears that there is no content in my profile and I'd go there to see the threads that I have been posting on...that was the quickest way to find where I've posted.
Now that I've posted, maybe this will be in my contents...will see. This new look is kind of nice.

 

[Renji]

Well if he didn't, is there a point for the Pharisees to accuse him of blasphemy?

 

[Jensen]

What message are you replying to?

 

[icebuddy]

And exactly how does multiplying the numbers make any more sense than adding them? I will expand on this in a later post.
Later.

Just showing that Math can be used in different ways. For example one would want to believe 1God+1God+1God=3Gods but the Trinity is more like 1God=1Father,1Son,1Holy Spirit or 1=1x1x1
Take the Universe for example: 1Universe=Space, Time, Mater. No one in their right mind would say 1+1+1= 3 universes. Thats what im trying to point out

 

[icebuddy]

Quote:
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (and here Jesus does not say that he is God, only that he receive the glory that he had before the world was.)

And why not address verse 5 and what it says and what I said? Instead you go to other verse and speak of the word. Jesus in verse 5 speaks of his father and does not call himself God. That is why I gave the verse, to show that Jesus is not God.

I do not see it your way. All I see is that the Word, who was God and with God, emptied himself to become what you now point at as "Not God", but what I see going on is that Jesus was God and emptied himself to be in this position by choice. What I believe you are doing is never seeing Jesus as God who emptied himself in the first place. That is why I pointed out the JW posted by BS where he believed Jesus was an angel, then a man, then an angel again. At any point could we say Jesus was never an angel? Do you see that parallel?

Tom your idea of "full belief" is to avoid the verses that show that Jesus and the bible does not teach that Jesus is God. You always go to only verses that you think support your view. Such as Titus 2:13-14. I did a close examination of those verses and then looking at numerous translations, one can not build a doctrine that Jesus is God from those verses as they are translated differently in different bibles and appear to not say the same thing, and so this makes those verses unreliable for building a doctrine especially if it appears to be in contradiction of other verses on the same subject. And then, you end up saying that Jesus is the image of God...

You keep pointing to verses of Jesus in his "empty" state and expect me to focus on Jesus at his lowest point of being and then stay there. The Bible says Jesus was God, in the Form of God, Mighty God, is Jehovah YHWH of the Old testament, Creator with the Father, then emptied himself to become a Jewish Man like every Jewish man as the father as his God, and you only point to these passages where Jesus was a man and I agree at this point Jesus was a man lower than even the angels, but this doesnt take away from Jesus being God with the Father before all of creation. Your staying in a place where Jesus was lower than all the angels and pointing to these passages saying "Jesus is not God" and then continue as if he was never God or has anything to do with being Eternal as 1John1:1-4 says the Eternal Word of Life became flesh. What i see is "God to Man to Mediator back to God" to be basic. You point out the middle of my belief and dont understand that I also believe that, but thats only part of my belief. In full our God is really our Savior too.

That's not what I asked....why are those that say they are lead by the Holy spirit usually not in agreement. If lead by the Spirit, they should be in complete agreement. And most who claim this are not in agreement.

You question is bizarre to me because even the Disciples didnt agree 100% on everything and the Spirit was in full swing and not drowned out by things of this world as they are today. What would you have said to them? i do not have all the answers, but i can explain what I believe and why. There are many that believe as I do and we all believe Gods Spirit is in us. I would like to add that even a new believer has the Holy Spirit and when he/she is young might have zeal to express their belief and it may not be 100% accurate because they are on milk and not meat. I was the same way in 1997, even today I am still learning. That is why we must look back to the early church Fathers and their creeds.

There is nothing in the bible that says that Jesus started off as God.

John 1:1 has God and with God. The Father points Jesus out as YHWH of the Old Testament. Jesus says before Abraham "I AM". The Eternal Word of Life became Flesh. Nothing was created that is created apart from Jesus. I can go On and On, but you dont see what i see. Im not even sure how your looking at things to begin with. For example, what is satan blinding people from seeing at 2Cor4:4-6? Really... He blinds people from seeing that Jesus is the "Image of God".... Many here will say Image of God is no different from you and me being Image of God... Really? They why is Satan blinding them from seeing it if it only means Jesus was a Man "In the Image of God" just like you and me and not the only "Image of God"... ?

And I've never read "God/Man" in the bible anywhere. Another addition to the scriptures? Also, nowhere in the bible does it say that it takes an act of Jesus for God to be all in all. Adding to the bible?

I am not adding to the bible. i am expressing my belief... You say Im mean from time to time, but look at what you are saying to me... You also have to believe Jesus was something before and man... The Jehovahs Witnesses would say Jesus was the Angel/Man, yet thats not in the bible directly either. However they are expressing their belief and point to verses of why they believe it... i do no different

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

One of my favorite quotes is from BB Warfield : "The very Deity of God, that which makes God God, in all its completeness, has it permanent home in our Lord Jesus, and that in bodily fashion, that is, it is in him clothed with a body."

I've done fine without a body of believers to belong to.

Is that Biblical?

For me thinking of Jesus as God is idolatry and very dangerous.

i do not think God the Father will find me lifting Jesus up as God to be a problem. I look to Jesus and say, "My Lord and My God" with no worries. I see Jesus as Alpha and Omega as seen in Revelation 22. Dont forget that the bible always says the Devil blinds people from seeing who Jesus really is, never does it say the Devil has people lifting Jesus up too high, as if that was even possible...

I don't see how one can ignore what Jesus, the Lord and the one that Christians are to follow, said in John 17:3

i dont see how one can read that passage and not see Jesus as part of the Equation that is True God. You are using the English word "and" to drive a wedge between True God and Jesus. Read Titus 2:13-14 Jesus is our Great God

 

[Desert Snake]

.................

 

[Desert Snake]

The Bible declares Jesus to have been given all the power in heaven and on earth.
Jesus is declared the Creator.
the father calls Jesus G-d.
Ok, this is a religious text. It's talking about a deity, Jesus.
Why did the Greek (translators? They must have been translators) leave the terms vague in areas and not in others. Who knows. It's possible they were getting pressure from various places to 'keep it interpretive'. To a believer, there are many passages that indicate the authors are describing their religion. To people just 'reading it straight', you get a lot of vague wording.

 

[Jensen]

Icebuddy,

Your posts are way too long, and I feel that you do not understand what I'm saying, and so if it is okay by the moderators, here is a link that you should make close examination of..

The Trinity Delusion: Hebrews 1:10

Also read a book called Divine Truth or Human Tradition? by Patrick Navas.....especially pages 385-399 about Hebrews 1:8 and 1:10-12, it is very enlightening.