Did Jesus say obviously " I am a God" in Gospel?

[doppelganger]

Yes.

I have followed you around since you were a little child and I am able to read your mind.

You, too?

Actually, "THEISTS USE 'GOD' TO FULFILL THEIR PURPOSES."

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

 

[Comprehend]

You, too?

Actually, "THEISTS USE 'GOD' TO FULFILL THEIR PURPOSES."

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

*whispers* - my signature is mocking the statement...

 

[rocketman]

John Nicodemus/Nicolaitans is false!!!!!!!!...Yeshua said do not go after those who say "I am" (EGO I-mee) of him, as he didn’t speak such as it, as in the Anti-Christ post correctly explained again for you, encase you weren’t listening.
You your self now blaspheme God, as it has been shown to you...so next will be your Karma be aware....

Oh I've been listening my friend. Looked at your website too. Nevertheless, plenty has been provided from the synoptic gospels without invoking John, if he's not your cup of tea. The link !fluffy! gave was also a good one indeed in that respect.

Your profound lack of expertise in the relevant history is showing, by the way.

 

[wizanda]

Oh I've been listening my friend. Looked at your website too. Nevertheless, plenty has been provided from the synoptic gospels without invoking John, if he's not your cup of tea. The link !fluffy! gave was also a good one indeed in that respect.

Your profound lack of expertise in the relevant history is showing, by the way.

Balaam teachings of Nicolaitans within Revelations, is the Pharisee author John Nicodemus, as it fulfils all points written about it....
Its not that it isn't my cuppa, it's complete and utter rubbish and could be proven with scripture alone in a court of law, yet i doubt any court would let me....so did think would try and bring the subjects up online for us all to do so...
Yet we can't even see that Saul/Paul is Anti-christ teachings, so there isn't much hope for many of the peoples here....yet this doesn't stop me at least trying...:angel2:

 

[rocketman]

Balaam teachings of Nicolaitans within Revelations, is the Pharisee author John Nicodemus, as it fulfils all points written about it....
Its not that it isn't my cuppa, it's complete and utter rubbish and could be proven with scripture alone in a court of law, yet i doubt any court would let me....so did think would try and bring the subjects up online for us all to do so...
Yet we can't even see that Saul/Paul is Anti-christ teachings, so there isn't much hope for many of the peoples here....yet this doesn't stop me at least trying...:angel2:

Don't get me wrong, even though I disagree with you I think it's good that you are trying to put your point forward, that's what these forums are about after all. You face an uphill struggle trying to convice 1.5+ billion people though.

 

[ayani]

Yes. When he brought himself back from the dead.

Can Mohammed do that?

this is an issue that i think should be addressed...

Mohammad was clearly just a person, a warner, a messenger. he never claimed to be God, or to be able to raise himself from the dead.

perhaps, if one is going to compare Christianity and Islam, one should compare Christ to the Quran, so much as both are understood of manifestations of the Word of God on earth.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Mathew 5,9,43,45,48.
Romans 8,14
these verses show clearly that any Pious person
is the son of God not literaly.

Neither did jesus
I am ascending to My Father and your Father
To My God and your God. John 20,17.
Jesus had a God he wasnt God.

How is it you prefer to extricate that one verse to support your anti-biblical doctrine and decide instead to ignore the entire gospel? Or how about JUST the CHAPTER??? Here, let's read the whole thing:

John 20
The Empty Tomb

1 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.

Mary Magdalene Sees the Risen Lord


11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.

The Apostles Commissioned


19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,[c] for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Seeing and Believing


24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
That You May Believe


30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

1. The chapter (not to mention the entire book of John) is a witness and testimony to the divinity of Jesus Christ, his life, crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension. Let's not brush aside the entire POINT of the book of John if you're going to quote it and retain any credibility please.

2. Interestingly, Thomas exclaimed MY LORD AND MY GOD upon seeing Jesus after the resurrection and examining his wounds.

3. Jesus didn't tear his clothes, cry out "heresy, lies! Hear O Israel, our God is One God!", didn't rebuke Thomas for calling him LORD and GOD, as any good Jewish rabbi would have done. Unless of course he was the Christ.

4. Once again, in case you hadn't noticed just by reading the text or wish to stubbornly evade the theme, content, context and testimony of John, he has conveniently provided his own synopsis:

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.​

In summary: I challenge you to read the Gospel of John and explain to me how anyone with an ounce of intellectual integrity can use his writings to prove Jesus was NOT 'the Christ the Son of God', when John explicity states "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name".​

Either John fabricated his story and was a liar, in which case we can safely disregard anything he has to say at all, or he was telling the truth in which case we should respect his entire teaching including his own conclusions as to what he saw, heard and experienced. ​

You can't have it both ways.​

From my post on this thread
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/24954-trinity-bible-57.html#post959003

 

[Popeyesays]

Fluffy,

Thomas said "Oh my Lord and my God!" as an exclamation. Much like one might say, "Oh, my goodness!", or "Holy Smoke!". It is not an attribution to God being Jesus in the flesh.

Regards,
Scott

 

[rocketman]

Thomas said "Oh my Lord and my God!" as an exclamation. Much like one might say, "Oh, my goodness!", or "Holy Smoke!". It is not an attribution to God being Jesus in the flesh.

Your guess is inconsistent with the way 1st C Jews were inclined to speak. Exclamations about God were almost always in praise of God, wheras the modern habit of invoking God without some sort of praise was not practiced by the Jews according to historical accounts. To say 'My Lord and my God' as some sort of non-directed exclamation would be very bizzare indeed for such a person. The possesive 'my' implies a strong sense of personal connection, making a generalised exclamation less likely, especially as he was standing directly in the presence of someone whom he often called 'Lord' anyway. Think about how his words would have sounded therefore.

The context is important. Read it. What was at issue for Thomas was the identity of the man who had apparantly returned from the dead.

---------------
EDIT: By the way, where did you get the "Oh" from ?

 

[Popeyesays]

I read it in context. it is still an interjection, and the Praise Phrase is used in aw at the revelation of an acto of God, which the resurrection WAS. it still does not imply that Thomas was calling Jesus God, even in the instance which you describe.

Also the term "Lord" was used to respect earthly authority more often than not.

Regards,
Scott

 

[mcteethinator]

Yes. When he brought himself back from the dead.

Can Mohammed do that?

Can Abraham do that?
Can Moses do that?
Can Adam do that?
Can King Solomon do that?


What a silly question.

If one is prejudiciously convinced (as in pre-judgement, to come to a conclusion without seriously considering an opposing view) Jesus was not the Messiah, nothing will ever convince them that Jesus proclaimed he was the son of God, even if one would go to the trouble of reading or studying the texts in question, and there is little that can be said to change that.

Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They just believe what the Jews believe - that a human who is also God is impossible and that the Messiah would not be divine. being the Messiah and the Son of God are 2 seperate things. it's funny how a lot of Christians don't even know that the Messiah wasn't going to be a God and that by doing so blatantly contradicts the predictions that Christianity was founded upon. There's also the whole thing about how in the original Koine Greek the gospels were written in, son and servant meant the exact same thing...

Both sides have been argued ad nauseum on this site. Methinks you have started another 5 million post thread that will change nobody's mind. Maybe try an abortion topic next.

QFT.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

If he is God then why in the Gospel according to st Luke,
"AND THERE APPEARED AN ANGEL UNTO HIM(Jesus),
FROM HEAVEN, STRENGTHENING HIM" (LUKE 22,43).
God Almighty doesnt need or want help from anyone
but he sends angels to strengthen prophets.

QFT

From his Father, have you not read the bible?

Jesus is somehow God, yet he is his own father? It strikes me as polytheism to be honest. But then again, as you said later

Maybe you do not know anything about Latter-Day Saints?

You guys actually believe they are 3 seperate beings. Which really doesn't make sense considering how many times the Bible explicitly states God is one.

 

[rocketman]

I read it in context. it is still an interjection, and the Praise Phrase is used in aw at the revelation of an acto of God, which the resurrection WAS. it still does not imply that Thomas was calling Jesus God, even in the instance which you describe.

"..and Thomas answered and said TO HIM.." emphasis mine. Scott, for me the context is crystal clear.

Frankly, anything else in that part of the world at that time would have been pretty close to swearing if not swearing proper. This is more of a historical question than anything else.

Also the term "Lord" was used to respect earthly authority more often than not.

Yep, and we see both 'Lord' and 'God' arriving back to back in the sentence. One of them they used quite often, which would be odd if it wasn't directed at the one they used it on without further explanation. And indeed it was at him: "..and said TO HIM.." Emphasis mine again.

Peace.

 

[rocketman]

What a silly question.

True.

..that a human who is also God is impossible

Christian believe "...With God all things are possible..." That was one of Jesus' central teachings.

.. being the Messiah and the Son of God are 2 seperate things.

Even if that were true, what's your point? Jesus claimed to be both.

it's funny how a lot of Christians don't even know that the Messiah wasn't going to be a God

Isaiah 9:6.
And check your history books - many Jews thought this way too.

Jesus is somehow God, yet he is his own father? ... You guys actually believe they are 3 seperate beings. Which really doesn't make sense considering how many times the Bible explicitly states God is one.

A gross and poorly researched interpretaion of the thinking of the tri-nature of the ONE God. Here is a simple read for you.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Fluffy,

Thomas said "Oh my Lord and my God!" as an exclamation. Much like one might say, "Oh, my goodness!", or "Holy Smoke!". It is not an attribution to God being Jesus in the flesh.

Regards,
Scott

Horse manure. He is immediately congratulated as a believer by Jesus. I am going to quote one of my greek geek friends here for your edification:

The thematic structure of John's Gospel from start to finish is against your
reading of John 20:28. All through the gospel, from the prolog to the major
dramatic peak at the end of chapter 8, to the confession of Thomas in John
20:28 this one issue is being stressed over and over again.

When we look at the high level thematic discourse structure of John it just
leaves little room for doubt about what is being said in John 20:28. This is
a macro structural issue in the Gospel, and no amount of quibbling and nit
picking about grammatical minutia, or inventing new rules will make this
macro structural issue go away.

I can say this with a fair amount of confidence since every commentary on
John in my library clearly supports this view, including: Marcus Dods,
H. Alford, H.A.W. Meyer, B.F. Westcott, D.A. Carson and L. Morris. It is
somewhat humorous that the three mega scholars H. Alford, H.A.W. Meyer, and
B.F. Westcott were the most dogmatic about this, according to them there is
not contest here. They consider Thomas' confession in John 20:28 a major
structural component in John's thematic development.

I thought that James D. G. Dunn might take a different view, since he has
written extensively on the *development* of NT Christology so I thought he
might be the odd man out on this but it didn't work out that way. J. D. G.
Dunn was in enthusiastic agreement with all of the works mentioned above.

So. Your post reflects a lack of linguistic - exegetical scholarship, sorry. Furthermore your cherry picking & refusal to address John's theme, content and intent displays weak scholarship and a lack of integrity in the argument, as was pointed out previously. Either believe what John wrote plainly or discard it as a source, you can't have it both ways.

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Further studies on John are readily available to those interested in actual study based on reliable scholarship. I have already posted one link, here is a sample of another excellent article on John's powerful testament to the divinity of Christ.

Jesus' enemies and disciples both believe he has claimed divinity:
http://www.nd.edu/~jneyrey1/MyLord.God.htm​

A disciple of Jesus calls him "Lord and God" (20:28; see 1:1-2), while his enemies charge that Jesus "makes himself equal to God" (5:18) and "makes himself God" (10:34). What is the scope of these remarks about Jesus? What content goes into the confession of Jesus as "Lord and God" and what is meant by claiming that Jesus is "equal to God"? In what ways is Jesus properly called "god"?​

.../​

5:21-29 indicate quite clearly in what sense Jesus is "equal to God," viz., Jesus has God's full eschatologial power:​

1. make alive: As the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son makes alive whom he wills (5:21);​

2. judgment: The Father has given all judgment to the Son (5:22);​

3. honor: . . . that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father (5:23);​

4. dead hear & live: The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live (5:25);​

5. life in himself: As the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself (5:26);​

6. judgment: . . . and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man (5:27);​

7. dead raised & judged: All in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment (5:28-29).​

Since Jesus enjoys the same honor as God, the same authority, and the same extraordinary powers, he is undeniably "equal to God." And this equality with God is not Jesus' vainglorious self-extension; rather it is God's will that he be so recognized and honored.​

 

[blackout]

Certainly none of us knows anything for sure.

And in this light,
I would say that it doesn't really matter to me at all
weather or not Y'shua is more ONE with the Father than I am/will be or not.
He is Father's special and beloved Son.
I am Father's special and beloved Daughter.
Whatever the details are,
are fine with me.

But I choose to take Jesus at his word,
that I can do "greater things than these".
I choose to REACH for His level of Oneness with the Father,
I choose to FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS,
EXPECT SUPERNATURAL WONDER,
I choose to live in the kingdom of heaven NOW,
I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THE IMPOSSIBLE!
I BELIEVE THE IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT SEEING...
and there it manifests, one way or another.
I CHOOSE TO LIVE AND BE AS jESUS!
I INVITE FATHER TO GIVE ME ALL HE HAS GIVEN JESUS!
All of it.
I am an open vessle.

I LOVE and adore my beloved big brother..
but I do not worship him anymore.
Years of that brought me a fruitful nothing.

 

[~Amin~]

In summary: I challenge you to read the Gospel of John and explain to me how anyone with an ounce of intellectual integrity can use his writings to prove Jesus was NOT 'the Christ the Son of God', when John explicity states "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name".​

​

"O MY GOD" i answered this so many times,
by the way i didnt mean your my god , i meant it the way
Thomas meant it as exclamation.

 

[UnityNow101]

If Thomas would have been calling Jesus God, he would have stopped him then and there and set him straight. Jesus prayed to God and extolled the name of his God all the days of his life. Surely, he would not have taken from the glory of God and accepted worship from anyone. Thomas' words are, like Amin has said, words of exclamation or excitement. You hear people, even today, when surprised, say "Oh my God." To say that this was him worshipping Jesus may just be taking the words out of context. But I could be wrong. It just doesn't fit in with the Jesus that I read about in the Bible and Quran.

 

[!Fluffy!]

"O MY GOD" i answered this so many times,
by the way i didnt mean your my god , i meant it the way
Thomas meant it as exclamation.

If Thomas would have been calling Jesus God, he would have stopped him then and there and set him straight. Jesus prayed to God and extolled the name of his God all the days of his life. Surely, he would not have taken from the glory of God and accepted worship from anyone. Thomas' words are, like Amin has said, words of exclamation or excitement. You hear people, even today, when surprised, say "Oh my God." To say that this was him worshipping Jesus may just be taking the words out of context. But I could be wrong. It just doesn't fit in with the Jesus that I read about in the Bible and Quran.

Still you flatly refuse to read and comprehend what is written, whether here or in the Bible. Read the book of John. Read the 20th Chapter of the Book of John. Read any concordance of the Book of John. Read my posts, and address the points one by one I dare you.

You are wrong. I have shown in a dozen different contexts using every available resource that you are wrong. You have offered absolutely no foundation for your incorrect assumptions. You have answered with nothing of substance but your own stubborn refusal to accept the only logical conclusion. Biblical scholars through the ages as well as anyone with a modicum of intelligence, reading comprehension and education agree that your ridiculous "Oh my God" exegesis is flat out wrong, an ignorant anachronism having nothing to do with either the text in question, the language of the day or the context, content and theme of the book of John.

That you refuse to address the points made logically within this thread speaks for itself. It is like trying to nail jello to a tree.

 

[rocketman]

"O MY GOD" i answered this so many times.

I don't think so. You have certainly shown that you don't understand the trinity. Without it you lack basic knowledge of what it is you are arguing against. Your answers have been painfully simplistic. Brother, it is probably best for you to get a basic understanding of things first.

Peace.

 

[~Amin~]

Read my posts, and address the points one by one I dare you.

I in a Friendly way take on your challenge one point
at a time, please not you or my self lets not write a
book, But one at a time, but in two days im going
in seclution to repent and think of God Alone and
ponder on His Awesome Attributes.
and be free from the world for ten days.