Did Paul champion the Cause of Christ or corrupt it?

[Trailblazer]

Ever had a Christian tell you that if you don’t believe in Jesus as he does, then you’re going to hell?

Pretty much every time I post to a Christian. If they do not say it explicitly, they say it implicitly. That is why you hardly ever see me posting to Christians on this forum. Frankly, I am tired of their air of superiority and condescending attitude. I am done.

As soon as those words have been spoken a line has been crossed. It’s as if a punch has been thrown. You just know whatever you do or say is probably not going to be well received. As Baha’is we could take exactly the same hardline approach.

I am not looking to be well received. I was not posting to a Christian. I was posting to you.

No, we cannot take that approach because we do not believe in being saved or in hell as Christians do. But the fact is that their are repercussions for rejecting Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah said so. I do not know exactly what the repercussions are because I am not God, but I am I am not going to beat around the bush. That is dishonest and it misrepresents what Baha'u'llah wrote.

I did not cross any lines. I am just reporting what Baha'u'llah wrote. I am not going to sugar coat it. I am not being disrespectful, just honest about what I believe.

A better conversation maybe discussing writings that you can both agree are of a sacred nature such as the gospels and assist each other to better understand the meanings.

I am not interested in that conversation. I see no point discussing the Bible. The dispensations of the past have been abrogated so I do not care about the meanings of the Bible. I do not agree with them that the Bible is the ONLY word of God that ever existed and that Jesus is the Only Way so that is not a conversation. It is just them telling me what the Truth is; but it isn't the Truth, and it is about time someone said so.

 

[oldbadger]

Our sophomores here are most impressed with
Paul.

I am equally impressed with Joseph Smith and his
gold books of the Book of Mormon.

As for Paul, I see something about him that
is as phony as Cal Worthington and his Dog Spot.
(see youtube).

Or Joseph Smith.

LIke, how can anyone possibly believe such
a ridiculous story? I've asked, a time or more.

Those who are willing to oblige come up with
dazzlingly stupid ways to rationalize, be in
the gold books or the snake story.

I should have kept a record of all the ways
people have "explained" the snake story,
or the gold books.

Surely......
I like the idea of gold books best. Especially if I could only find even one, just a smallish one.

Paul took a brilliant campaign started by the Baptist, carried forward for nearly a year by Yeshua, and manipulated it into the most brilliant mass-control religion based upon......... 'Do this, Obey that, and get to everlasting Heaven...... or don't do it and roast in eternal seething flames'. And it worked! But not now, not for the World now.

Whilst I do feel empathy, sympathy and friendship for some Christian Churches, I see in Bahai a furtherance of 'Do this for Heaven', in fact I have yet to ask Bahais what will happen to me after death. I guess I'm too scared to ask, these days.

 

[oldbadger]

Our sophomores here are most impressed with
Paul.

I am equally impressed with Joseph Smith and his
gold books of the Book of Mormon.

As for Paul, I see something about him that
is as phony as Cal Worthington and his Dog Spot.
(see youtube).

Or Joseph Smith.

LIke, how can anyone possibly believe such
a ridiculous story? I've asked, a time or more.

Those who are willing to oblige come up with
dazzlingly stupid ways to rationalize, be in
the gold books or the snake story.

I should have kept a record of all the ways
people have "explained" the snake story,
or the gold books.

I'm replying again to further my Heaven or Hell comments reference Bahai.

It appears that we don't go to any Heaven or Hell, which is handy for me, really, since I'm just a Deist.

Heaven and Hell | What Bahá'ís Believe - The Bahá'í Faith
Heaven and Hell | What Bahá’ís Believe
The Bahá'í teachings state that there is no such physical place as heaven or hell, and emphasise the eternal journey of the soul towards perfection.

 

[Marcion]

It is usual for those outside Abrahamic traditions to misunderstand and harshly judge those within.

Fighting against dogma (mental stagnation) is the duty or dharma of every human being.
Static peace isn't real peace at all, it is the devil's peace.

 

[paarsurrey]

Pretty much every time I post to a Christian. If they do not say it explicitly, they say it implicitly. That is why you hardly ever see me posting to Christians on this forum. Frankly, I am tired of their air of superiority and condescending attitude. I am done.

I am not looking to be well received. I was not posting to a Christian. I was posting to you.

No, we cannot take that approach because we do not believe in being saved or in hell as Christians do. But the fact is that their are repercussions for rejecting Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah said so. I do not know exactly what the repercussions are because I am not God, but I am I am not going to beat around the bush. That is dishonest and it misrepresents what Baha'u'llah wrote.

I did not cross any lines. I am just reporting what Baha'u'llah wrote. I am not going to sugar coat it. I am not being disrespectful, just honest about what I believe.

I am not interested in that conversation. I see no point discussing the Bible. The dispensations of the past have been abrogated so I do not care about the meanings of the Bible. I do not agree with them that the Bible is the ONLY word of God that ever existed and that Jesus is the Only Way so that is not a conversation. It is just them telling me what the Truth is; but it isn't the Truth, and it is about time someone said so.

"The dispensations of the past have been abrogated" Unquote.

Quran is not a dispensation of the past, and it has not been abrogated. It is enough for the fallibility of Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri if he has said that.

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

Actually I did propose that is one explanation.

Audie and I not understanding each other so best to give it a break.

You know me, If there are no poisonous snakes on the island, I'd say the story was embellished. I have no problem with believing that, but any literal-believing, Bible thumping Christian cannot allow it. They'd have to have some kind of explanation that makes enough sense to convince their own people. As long as it makes a little sense, then the Christian can put it out of mind and not have to entertain doubts. But, at some point they've put so many unscientific, improbable and totally outrageous things out of their mind, that it makes non-Christians wonder if they even think for themselves at all.

Like I usually like to point out, they believe the resurrection. Well, then they have to believe in the ascension. Then, all the miracles like walking on water. But then what about the rest of the Bible stories? They have to be true also. Samson knocked down the pillars holding the roof up. Moses parted the seas. God flooded the world. Elijah flew off in a fiery chariot etc. etc. Oh, and I forgot. Paul got bit by a snake. But the biggest one that is now an enormous concern for Baha'is... is since Jesus is alive, he is the one coming back. It is clear as day for the Christians... if they get convinced of the rest of the stories.

Make the stories symbolic, or like me, think they might be embellished stories or outright made up myths, then everything changes. But, one more important snake story, that is almost impossibly not a myth. The serpent in Eden. Doesn't Paul use the fall in Eden as to why Jesus had to come a pay the penalty? He acts as if that story really happened. So Adam, in Christianity, isn't a manifestation... he's the reason sin and death came into the world.

What do you have for an explanation of what Paul says about those things? Since none of it lines up with Baha'i teachings, so, whether it's a corruption of what Jesus taught or not, is it a corruption of the reality of God's Truth? Like I always put you on the spot, if the Baha'i Faith is correct, none of these explanations by Paul on how sin entered the world and why Jesus had to come to pay the price for man's fall is real or the truth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You know me, If there are no poisonous snakes on the island, I'd say the story was embellished. I have no problem with believing that, but any literal-believing, Bible thumping Christian cannot allow it. They'd have to have some kind of explanation that makes enough sense to convince their own people. As long as it makes a little sense, then the Christian can put it out of mind and not have to entertain doubts. But, at some point they've put so many unscientific, improbable and totally outrageous things out of their mind, that it makes non-Christians wonder if they even think for themselves at all.

Like I usually like to point out, they believe the resurrection. Well, then they have to believe in the ascension. Then, all the miracles like walking on water. But then what about the rest of the Bible stories? They have to be true also. Samson knocked down the pillars holding the roof up. Moses parted the seas. God flooded the world. Elijah flew off in a fiery chariot etc. etc. Oh, and I forgot. Paul got bit by a snake. But the biggest one that is now an enormous concern for Baha'is... is since Jesus is alive, he is the one coming back. It is clear as day for the Christians... if they get convinced of the rest of the stories.

Make the stories symbolic, or like me, think they might be embellished stories or outright made up myths, then everything changes. But, one more important snake story, that is almost impossibly not a myth. The serpent in Eden. Doesn't Paul use the fall in Eden as to why Jesus had to come a pay the penalty? He acts as if that story really happened. So Adam, in Christianity, isn't a manifestation... he's the reason sin and death came into the world.

What do you have for an explanation of what Paul says about those things? Since none of it lines up with Baha'i teachings, so, whether it's a corruption of what Jesus taught or not, is it a corruption of the reality of God's Truth? Like I always put you on the spot, if the Baha'i Faith is correct, none of these explanations by Paul on how sin entered the world and why Jesus had to come to pay the price for man's fall is real or the truth.

Let's go back to a basic Baha'i principle and that is the harmony between science and religion. There are many of the Baha'i writings that reference this theme, perhaps too many to mention. On our website we have:

Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion, a notion that became prevalent in intellectual discourse at a time when the very conception of each system of knowledge was far from adequate. The harmony of science and religion is one of the fundamental principles of the Bahá’í Faith, which teaches that religion, without science, soon degenerates into superstition and fanaticism, while science without religion becomes merely the instrument of crude materialism. “Religion,” according to the Bahá’í writings, “is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive.” “Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created things embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment.”


So far as earthly existence is concerned, many of the greatest achievements of religion have been moral in character. Through its teachings and through the examples of human lives illumined by these teachings, masses of people in all ages and lands have developed the capacity to love, to give generously, to serve others, to forgive, to trust in God, and to sacrifice for the common good. Social structures and institutional systems have been devised that translate these moral advances into the norms of social life on a vast scale. In the final analysis, the spiritual impulses set in motion by the Founders of the world’s religions—the Manifestations of God—have been the chief influence in the civilizing of human character.


‘Abdu’l-Bahá has described science as the “most noble” of all human virtues and “the discoverer of all things”. Science has enabled society to separate fact from conjecture. Further, scientific capabilities—of observing, of measuring, of rigorously testing ideas—have allowed humanity to construct a coherent understanding of the laws and processes governing physical reality, as well as to gain insights into human conduct and the life of society.


Taken together, science and religion provide the fundamental organizing principles by which individuals, communities, and institutions function and evolve. When the material and spiritual dimensions of the life of a community are kept in mind and due attention is given to both scientific and spiritual knowledge, the tendency to reduce human progress to the consumption of goods, services and technological packages is avoided. Scientific knowledge, to take but one simple example, helps the members of a community to analyse the physical and social implications of a given technological proposal—say, its environmental impact—and spiritual insight gives rise to moral imperatives that uphold social harmony and that ensure technology serves the common good. Together, these two sources of knowledge are essential to the liberation of individuals and communities from the traps of ignorance and passivity. They are vital to the advancement of civilization.

Science and Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe

Looking specifically at some Baha'i writings on this theme:

Knowledge is as wings to man’s life, and a ladder for his ascent. Its acquisition is incumbent upon everyone. The knowledge of such sciences, however, should be acquired as can profit the peoples of the earth, and not those which begin with words and end with words. Great indeed is the claim of scientists and craftsmen on the peoples of the world.

(Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, Tajallíyát)

God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible… – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239.

Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with science is mere tradition…. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life. – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 28-29.

The priests are attached to ancient superstitions and when these are not in keeping with science, the priests denounce science. When religion is upheld by science and reason we can believe with assurance and act with conviction, for this rational faculty is the greatest power in the world. Through it industries are established, the past and present are laid bare and the underlying realities are brought to light. Let us make nature our captive, break through all laws of limitation and with deep penetration bring to light that which is hidden. The power to do this is the greatest of divine benefits. Why treat with indifference such a divine spark? Why ignore a faculty so beneficial, a sun so powerful? – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p.96; p.101-2.

Unity of Science & Religion

I avoid having posts with many quotes but we really need to have a clear grasp of the relationship betwen science and religion. We have a great deal of flexibility as to how we apply these principles but we need to know what those principles are. OTOH Baha'is believe that God can and does perform miracles so it is theoretically possible that a snake known to locals to be poisonous bit Paul and he was unaffected by the poison exactly as is recorded in Acts of the Apostles 28:3-6. Miracles are possible but just because something is recorded in the Bible does not mean it happened. The primary purpose of the gospels (and Acts that was written by the author of the gospel of Luke) is not to provide a detailed historic account but to meet the needs of the churches for which they were written. Their purpose is to enable for the faithful to better understand their faith, including theology. It doesn't matter at all whether the miracles recorded in the Bible happened or they didn't. We can not categorically prove that any of them happened. Many of them we can not prove they didn't happen other than they go against the laws of nature. Some we can safely discount as being literally true as there is scientific evidence that makes the story so implausible, we can safely discount them. For me, the Paul/Viper story is one such story but also the ascension of Christ as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:10-11 is another.

There are no poisonous snakes on the island of Malta and there is no archaelogical evidence that there ever has been. Of course it is possible that in a fossil is found for a variety of snake that became extinct. But then we need to figure out when it became extinct and why. We need to ascertain if the snake was actually poisonous and could have grasped Paul's hand as recorded in the Bible. It becomes ridiculous IMHO. Maybe there's a team of Christian archaelogists on Malta right now looking for exactly that evidence. At the end of the day it doesn't matter to me or most Baha'is whether it really happened or not. It sure does matter to some Christians though.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Make the stories symbolic, or like me, think they might be embellished stories or outright made up myths, then everything changes. But, one more important snake story, that is almost impossibly not a myth. The serpent in Eden. Doesn't Paul use the fall in Eden as to why Jesus had to come a pay the penalty? He acts as if that story really happened. So Adam, in Christianity, isn't a manifestation... he's the reason sin and death came into the world.

It is simply reworking a Jewish mythological story to assist the early Churches understand the nature of Christ. Having a literal belief in the story of Adam and Eve and the doctrine of the fall of man has too mnay problems to be taken literally.

Adam is the first prophet of God in Islam. One learning from both Genesis and the Qur'an is with the passage of time all history becomes lost within mythology and it becomes impossible to distinguish fact and fiction. What's the evidence for the historic Adam? Other than what's written in the the sacred books of Abrahamic Faiths, none.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Pretty much every time I post to a Christian. If they do not say it explicitly, they say it implicitly. That is why you hardly ever see me posting to Christians on this forum. Frankly, I am tired of their air of superiority and condescending attitude. I am done.

Sorry to hear that. Although some Christians online and in person are like that, many are not.

I am not looking to be well received. I was not posting to a Christian. I was posting to you.

No, we cannot take that approach because we do not believe in being saved or in hell as Christians do. But the fact is that their are repercussions for rejecting Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah said so. I do not know exactly what the repercussions are because I am not God, but I am I am not going to beat around the bush. That is dishonest and it misrepresents what Baha'u'llah wrote.

I did not cross any lines. I am just reporting what Baha'u'llah wrote. I am not going to sugar coat it. I am not being disrespectful, just honest about what I believe.

The first verse in the Kitab-i-Aqdas is quite intriguing. If we took it literally then none of us are accepted in the sight of God as none of us are perfect and have obeyed every ordinance. So in the eyes of God, none of us are accepted whether we believe in Baha'u'llah or not, or try to follow every one of His ordinances or not.

That is quite troubling really so its important to consider other Baha'i writings as well that may tell us that the Mercy of God is also a crucial part of being accepted by in the eyes of God.

A drop out of the ocean of Thy mercy sufficeth to quench the flames of hell, and a spark of the fire of Thy love is enough to set ablaze a whole world.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, p. 245)

For far be it from His greatness and His glory that He should turn away a seeker at His door, cast aside from His Threshold one who hath set his hopes on Him, reject one who hath sought the shelter of His shade, deprive one who hath held fast to the hem of His mercy, or condemn to remoteness the poor one who hath found the river of His riches.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 40-41)

The greatness of His mercy surpasseth the fury of His wrath, and His grace encompasseth all who have been called into being and been clothed with the robe of life.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 130)

So the Mercy of God starts to look remarkably like the Grace of God that Paul talked about.

Christians have been grappling with many of the theological problems Baha'is need to grapple with. They have been working to resolve the kinds of contradictions within their own scripture that Baha'is need to as well. So when I talk to Christians, any Christian, I first consider what can I learn, rather than what can I teach. I would also consider that many of them know more about both the practice and principles of the Baha'i Faith even though they have never heard the word Baha'i.

I am not interested in that conversation. I see no point discussing the Bible. The dispensations of the past have been abrogated so I do not care about the meanings of the Bible. I do not agree with them that the Bible is the ONLY word of God that ever existed and that Jesus is the Only Way so that is not a conversation. It is just them telling me what the Truth is; but it isn't the Truth, and it is about time someone said so.

I agree that the Bible is not the only word of God, nor Jesus is the only way. However I do believe the Bible contains the words of God (through Moses and Jesus) and is a way to God. I believe Abdu'l-Baha when he wrote:

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

I'm always impressed as a medical doctor by the approach Abdu'l-Baha took to assist Howard Ivy Colby to give up smoking:

I remember as though it were yesterday another illustration of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s divine technique. I was not at all well that summer. A relapse was threatening a return of a condition which had necessitated a major operation the year before. My nervous condition made me consider breaking the habit of smoking which had been with me all my adult life. I had always prided myself on the ability to break the habit at any time. In fact I had several times cut off the use of tobacco for a period of many months. But this time to my surprise and chagrin I found my nerves and will in such a condition that after two or three days the craving became too much for me. Finally it occurred to me to ask the assistance of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. I had read His beautiful Tablet beginning: “0 ye pure friends of God!” in which He glorified personal cleanliness and urged the avoidance of anything tending towards habits of self-indulgence. “Surely,” I said to myself, “He will tell me how to overcome this habit.”


So, when I next saw Him I told Him all about it. It was like a child confessing to His mother, and my voice trailed away to embarrassed silence after only the fewest of words. But He understood, indeed much better than I did. Again I was conscious of an embracing, understanding love as He regarded me. After a moment He asked quietly, how much I smoked. I told him. He said He did not think that would hurt me, that the men in the Orient smoked all the time, that their hair and beards and clothing became saturated, and often very offensive. But that I did not do this, and at my age and having been accustomed to it for so many years He did not think that I should let it trouble me at all. His gentle eyes and smile seemed to hold a twinkle that recalled my impression of His enjoyment of a divine joke.


I was somewhat overwhelmed. Not a dissertation on the evils of habit; not an explanation of the bad effects on health; not a summoning of my will power to overcome desire, rather a Charter of Freedom did He present to me. I did not understand but it was a great relief for somehow I knew that this was wise advice. So immediately that inner conflict was stilled and I enjoyed my smoke with no smitings of conscience. But two days after this conversation I found the desire for tobacco had entirely left me and I did not smoke again for seven years. (Howard Colby Ives, Portals to Freedom, p. 45)

 

[Dawnofhope]

Fighting against dogma (mental stagnation) is the duty or dharma of every human being.
Static peace isn't real peace at all, it is the devil's peace.

If Buddha taught the Dharma then perhaps Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha did too. He said something similar to what you have told me:

'to refute what is vain and false, to establish the truth'

 

[74x12]

Fighting against dogma (mental stagnation) is the duty or dharma of every human being.
Static peace isn't real peace at all, it is the devil's peace.

Seems dogmatic to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Whilst I do feel empathy, sympathy and friendship for some Christian Churches, I see in Bahai a furtherance of 'Do this for Heaven', in fact I have yet to ask Bahais what will happen to me after death. I guess I'm too scared to ask, these days.

We Baha’is do not know a hell of a lot more about the afterlife than you do... see my next post regarding that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm replying again to further my Heaven or Hell comments reference Bahai.

It appears that we don't go to any Heaven or Hell, which is handy for me, really, since I'm just a Deist.

Heaven and Hell | What Bahá'ís Believe - The Bahá'í Faith
Heaven and Hell | What Bahá’ís Believe
The Bahá'í teachings state that there is no such physical place as heaven or hell, and emphasise the eternal journey of the soul towards perfection.

No, heaven and hell are not geographical locations, not physical places, because the spiritual world is not physical. We really do not know what heaven and hell are, although it makes sense that there are many gradations in between heaven and hell, since nearness to God (heaven) and distance from God (hell) lies along a continuum...

We Baha’is have been told so very little about the afterlife. Basically all we know is very general, stuff like this:

“The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346​

We don’t even know if Baha’u’llah is referring to ALL believers, or just Baha’is, although there are some other quotes that seem to indicate believers refers only to Baha’is.

So if that is true, that the quote refers only to Baha’is, what will happen to everyone else? I have NO idea.

I do wonder about this a lot. I do not just think “gee, I am a Baha’i so I am going to heaven.” I do not even know if I will because I do not consider myself close to God. Moreover, the whole idea of me going to heaven and others not going is very upsetting to me. On the other hand, justice must be served and it is not just that everyone goes to heaven, if they did not do anything to deserve it.

I have been reading this book entitled Heaven and Hell and it makes a lot of sense to me. It is not a Baha’i book but it seems closely aligned to Baha’i beliefs on the afterlife.

It says that some people go straight to heaven, but most people go to a third place called the World of Spirits before they go to heaven or hell. Some people stay there as long as 30 years. It is not a bad place to hang out. Angels come down from heaven to try to instruct people. However, certain people cannot be instructed and they eventually end up going to hell.

The gist of it is that God does not send us to heaven or hell... We create our own heaven and hell by the choices we make, the way we live... It is not only about belief but also about our actions, and the intent of our actions is very important. Did we really care about others or did we just act as If we did?

Selfish people who lived for the material world pleasures will go to hell, because that is all they ever knew.If they did not acquire spiritual attributes in this world, when they get to the spiritual world they will be like a child who did not develop the arms and legs needed in this world, they will be handicapped.

Those souls who acquired spiritual attributes in this world will be prepared for heaven, even if they do not go there right away. Spiritual people who cared about others more than self will go to heaven because that is what Angels do in heaven, help others. Those who go to hell will just sit around with others who are like them, with their thoughts on self and the material world. That will be hell because there will be no material world to express themselves in anymore; no food, drink, or sex.

Baha’u’llah gives us fair warning to deliver ourselves from the bondage of self and attachment to the world. If people do not heed that warning I think there will be consequences even for Baha’is.

 

[Trailblazer]

"The dispensations of the past have been abrogated" Unquote.

Quran is not a dispensation of the past, and it has not been abrogated. It is enough for the fallibility of Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri if he has said that.

Regards

You are free to believe whatever you wish because you have free will.

It is a Baha’i belief that Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets, which means He was the last Prophet in the prophetic cycle of religion. The Dispensation of Muhammad ended in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The Bab ushered in the Bahai Cycle (also called the Cycle of Fulfillment because all the prophecies from former religions will be fulfilled during this Cycle). We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

A dispensation is a time period, so only one dispensation can exist at a time. Two dispensations cannot take place concurrently.

 

[Trailblazer]

The first verse in the Kitab-i-Aqdas is quite intriguing. If we took it literally then none of us are accepted in the sight of God as none of us are perfect and have obeyed every ordinance. So in the eyes of God, none of us are accepted whether we believe in Baha'u'llah or not, or try to follow every one of His ordinances or not.

That is quite troubling really so its important to consider other Baha'i writings as well that may tell us that the Mercy of God is also a crucial part of being accepted by in the eyes of God.

A drop out of the ocean of Thy mercy sufficeth to quench the flames of hell, and a spark of the fire of Thy love is enough to set ablaze a whole world.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, p. 245)

For far be it from His greatness and His glory that He should turn away a seeker at His door, cast aside from His Threshold one who hath set his hopes on Him, reject one who hath sought the shelter of His shade, deprive one who hath held fast to the hem of His mercy, or condemn to remoteness the poor one who hath found the river of His riches.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 40-41)

The greatness of His mercy surpasseth the fury of His wrath, and His grace encompasseth all who have been called into being and been clothed with the robe of life.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 130)

So the Mercy of God starts to look remarkably like the Grace of God that Paul talked about.

Christians have been grappling with many of the theological problems Baha'is need to grapple with. They have been working to resolve the kinds of contradictions within their own scripture that Baha'is need to as well. So when I talk to Christians, any Christian, I first consider what can I learn, rather than what can I teach. I would also consider that many of them know more about both the practice and principles of the Baha'i Faith even though they have never heard the word Baha'i.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331​

The point of that passage is that once we have recognized Baha’u’llah, it is our duty to obey all the ordinances. But just because we cannot perfectly obey every ordinance does not mean it does not matter if we recognize Baha’u’llah or not.

The big difference between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith is that Christianity is a lawless religion, as Paul did away with the Law. Not only that, but Paul did away with the necessity of deeds.

The Mercy of God is part of being accepted by in the eyes of God but I do not see this as the same as Paul saying that by grace alone you are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.​

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170​

I agree that the Bible is not the only word of God, nor Jesus is the only way. However I do believe the Bible contains the words of God (through Moses and Jesus) and is a way to God. I believe Abdu'l-Baha when he wrote:

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

The Bible is “a way” to God but not “the way” that Baha’u’llah has enjoined us to take, for the following reasons:

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172​

I'm always impressed as a medical doctor by the approach Abdu'l-Baha took to assist Howard Ivy Colby to give up smoking:

I remember as though it were yesterday another illustration of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s divine technique. I was not at all well that summer. A relapse was threatening a return of a condition which had necessitated a major operation the year before. My nervous condition made me consider breaking the habit of smoking which had been with me all my adult life. I had always prided myself on the ability to break the habit at any time. In fact I had several times cut off the use of tobacco for a period of many months. But this time to my surprise and chagrin I found my nerves and will in such a condition that after two or three days the craving became too much for me. Finally it occurred to me to ask the assistance of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. I had read His beautiful Tablet beginning: “0 ye pure friends of God!” in which He glorified personal cleanliness and urged the avoidance of anything tending towards habits of self-indulgence. “Surely,” I said to myself, “He will tell me how to overcome this habit.”

So, when I next saw Him I told Him all about it. It was like a child confessing to His mother, and my voice trailed away to embarrassed silence after only the fewest of words. But He understood, indeed much better than I did. Again I was conscious of an embracing, understanding love as He regarded me. After a moment He asked quietly, how much I smoked. I told him. He said He did not think that would hurt me, that the men in the Orient smoked all the time, that their hair and beards and clothing became saturated, and often very offensive. But that I did not do this, and at my age and having been accustomed to it for so many years He did not think that I should let it trouble me at all. His gentle eyes and smile seemed to hold a twinkle that recalled my impression of His enjoyment of a divine joke.

I was somewhat overwhelmed. Not a dissertation on the evils of habit; not an explanation of the bad effects on health; not a summoning of my will power to overcome desire, rather a Charter of Freedom did He present to me. I did not understand but it was a great relief for somehow I knew that this was wise advice. So immediately that inner conflict was stilled and I enjoyed my smoke with no smitings of conscience. But two days after this conversation I found the desire for tobacco had entirely left me and I did not smoke again for seven years. (Howard Colby Ives, Portals to Freedom, p. 45)

Thanks for sharing that story. Portals to Freedom was one of the first books I read after I discovered the Baha’i Faith and I remember how impressed I was by it. Of course that was eons ago, so I have long since forgotten what I read.

 

[Dell]

A number of scholars of manuscripts believe that a 3rd or so of Paul's epistles were not written by him, but by scribes injecting new church ideology. ( i.e. separating women from the ministry. Earlier writings of Paul women had major roles in the ministry.) So, probably some of the changes were apparently early church leaders in power assigning Paul's name to it in order to authorize new ideology.

Most of Paul's actual epistles were written prior to the Gospels. It's interesting to compare his teachings to teachings in the Gospels to see any progression of ideas. Christian doctrines were formed by the Church years after Jesus. In 1st and 2nd centuries there were many Christianity's not just one. Paul supposedly spent a lot of time combating heretics in his latter days. The biggest problems of the early church was becoming fractured each claiming to be orthodox, not persecution by the Roman's, that came some later.

Most all of the Church pastoral instruction comes from Paul. Funny that the other apostles didn't attribute more in this area, or if they did it never made it into the Bible.

No one knows what changes were made from the original letters of Paul.

Paul didn't know Jesus but he knew the apostles who did, which he confronted at times over ideology. He also was confrontational with other prominent Christians. Peter supposedly said something like his writings were hard and got twisted by readers interpreting it. Of course its believed also 2 Peter wasn't written by Peter either.

In short Paul, who wasn't a direct disciple of Jesus, is credited to and responsible for what the very early church was and somewhat what it is today more than anyone else in the Bible. The message of Jesus was mostly apocalyptic and good works. So I don't think the message Jesus preached was changed so much, just the Church and doctrines became totally changed from what was Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A dispensation is a time period, so only one dispensation can exist at a time. Two dispensations cannot take place concurrently.

Interestingly, 2 Messengers of God can live at the same time. One can ask the other for a Dispensation of 19 years.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Interestingly, 2 Messengers of God can live at the same time. One can ask the other for a Dispensation of 19 years.

Regards Tony

True, they can live at the same time, but I do not know any others who lived at the same time except the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Their Dispensations did not overlap though.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The point of that passage is that once we have recognized Baha’u’llah, it is our duty to obey all the ordinances. But just because we cannot perfectly obey every ordinance does not mean it does not matter if we recognize Baha’u’llah or not.

I agree but that wasn't my point. My point is that even as Baha'is we are in no position to judge the soul of another. Only God can do that. To presume on the basis of that quote that only Baha'is can make it to heaven is to make exactly the same assumption that Christians would on the basis of John 14:6.

God judges each soul on its own merits. The Guardian cannot tell you what the attitude of God would be towards a person who lives a good life in most ways, but not in this way … We must be hopeful of God’s Mercy but not impose upon it.
(Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 365)

But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the Mercy of God and His Bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His Mercy if we reach out for it.
(Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 209)

Whoso falleth short of this standard with good reason shall incur no blame. God, verily, is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 46)

The big difference between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith is that Christianity is a lawless religion, as Paul did away with the Law. Not only that, but Paul did away with the necessity of deeds.

Christianity is not a lawless religion and Paul didn't do away with the law. Instead he choose the laws that were still relevant for the New Covenant and laid down a few new ones.

Paul clearly emphasised the importance of law.

"Therefore, the law is indeed holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good . . . " (Romans 7:12)

"Are we, then, abolishing law through faith? MAY IT NEVER BE! Rather, we are establishing law." (Romans 3:31)

"Let me ask those of you who want to be subject to the Law: do you not hear what the Law says?" (Galatians 4:21).

What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is . . . (Galatians 3:19)

As a New covenant was established (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:26-29) and the Old Covenant abrograted (Hebrews 8:13) new laws were laid down and the obligation to follow many of the Mosaic laws was no longer required.

The New Testament is clear that both faith and deeds are required (James 2:14-26). To truly understand Paul is to appreciate that he emphasised both good conduct and faith. Abdu'l-Baha praised Paul highly for his high standard of conduct after all and affirmed the primacy of Peter who in turn affirmd the truth of Paul's letters (2 Peter 3:15-16).

The idea that we are saved by Grace alone and our deeds don't matter came not from Paul but originated from the Lutheran reformation who have taken Paul's statements out of context. Some scholars have argued that Martin Luther even removed books from the Bible that didn't agree with his theology.

Sola fide - Wikipedia

Luther's canon - Wikipedia

The Catholics have a different take on it.

Saved by Faith Alone? - Catholic Stand

 

[Marcion]

Paul clearly emphasised the importance of law.

"Therefore, the law is indeed holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good . . . " (Romans 7:12)

"Are we, then, abolishing law through faith? MAY IT NEVER BE! Rather, we are establishing law." (Romans 3:31)

"Let me ask those of you who want to be subject to the Law: do you not hear what the Law says?" (Galatians 4:21).

What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is . . . (Galatians 3:19)

You have no idea if the original author(s) of the letters are being quoted or some church scribe(s) who made interpolations.
So then the whole argument that you made becomes useless.
It is quite easy to quote Bahaulah or Anandamurti, but when picking things from the Christian Bible you often have no idea who you are quoting nor do you know exactly what this person's ideological way of thinking was.