Did Paul champion the Cause of Christ or corrupt it?

[oldbadger]

No, heaven and hell are not geographical locations, not physical places, because the spiritual world is not physical. We really do not know what heaven and hell are, although it makes sense that there are many gradations in between heaven and hell, since nearness to God (heaven) and distance from God (hell) lies along a continuum...

We Baha’is have been told so very little about the afterlife. Basically all we know is very general, stuff like this:

“The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346​

We don’t even know if Baha’u’llah is referring to ALL believers, or just Baha’is, although there are some other quotes that seem to indicate believers refers only to Baha’is.

So if that is true, that the quote refers only to Baha’is, what will happen to everyone else? I have NO idea.

I do wonder about this a lot. I do not just think “gee, I am a Baha’i so I am going to heaven.” I do not even know if I will because I do not consider myself close to God. Moreover, the whole idea of me going to heaven and others not going is very upsetting to me. On the other hand, justice must be served and it is not just that everyone goes to heaven, if they did not do anything to deserve it.

I have been reading this book entitled Heaven and Hell and it makes a lot of sense to me. It is not a Baha’i book but it seems closely aligned to Baha’i beliefs on the afterlife.

It says that some people go straight to heaven, but most people go to a third place called the World of Spirits before they go to heaven or hell. Some people stay there as long as 30 years. It is not a bad place to hang out. Angels come down from heaven to try to instruct people. However, certain people cannot be instructed and they eventually end up going to hell.

The gist of it is that God does not send us to heaven or hell... We create our own heaven and hell by the choices we make, the way we live... It is not only about belief but also about our actions, and the intent of our actions is very important. Did we really care about others or did we just act as If we did?

Selfish people who lived for the material world pleasures will go to hell, because that is all they ever knew.If they did not acquire spiritual attributes in this world, when they get to the spiritual world they will be like a child who did not develop the arms and legs needed in this world, they will be handicapped.

Those souls who acquired spiritual attributes in this world will be prepared for heaven, even if they do not go there right away. Spiritual people who cared about others more than self will go to heaven because that is what Angels do in heaven, help others. Those who go to hell will just sit around with others who are like them, with their thoughts on self and the material world. That will be hell because there will be no material world to express themselves in anymore; no food, drink, or sex.

Baha’u’llah gives us fair warning to deliver ourselves from the bondage of self and attachment to the world. If people do not heed that warning I think there will be consequences even for Baha’is.

Thankyou for that info....

Many years ago my late wife told me that both her mother and father would gain automatic entry to Bahai Heaven simply because they had borne a child who became a Bahai.

Do you know anything about this?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thankyou for that info....

Many years ago my late wife told me that both her mother and father would gain automatic entry to Bahai Heaven simply because they had borne a child who became a Bahai.

Do you know anything about this?

This is one prayer we say for parents.

O Lord! In this Most Great Dispensation...
OLord! In this Most Great Dispensation Thou dost accept the intercession of children in behalf of their parents. This is one of the special infinite bestowals of this Dispensation. Therefore, O Thou kind Lord, accept the request of this Thy servant at the threshold of Thy singleness and submerge his father in the ocean of Thy grace, because this son hath arisen to render Thee service and is exerting effort at all times in the pathway of Thy love. Verily, Thou art the Giver, the Forgiver and the Kind!

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

There are also Mother and Mother and Father prayers. Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

You have no idea if the original author(s) of the letters are being quoted or some church scribe(s) who made interpolations.
So then the whole argument that you made becomes useless.
It is quite easy to quote Bahaulah or Anandamurti, but when picking things from the Christian Bible you often have no idea who you are quoting nor do you know exactly what this person's ideological way of thinking was.

Not so.

We have biblical scholarship that strongly supports Pauline authorship.

Seven of the 13 letters that bear Paul's name – Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians and Philemon – are almost universally accepted as being entirely authentic (dictated by Paul himself).They are considered the best source of information on Paul's life and especially his thought.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle#cite_note-Sanders2-10
Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle#cite_note-Sanders2-10
The Holy Qu'ran while not specifically mentioning Pauline epistles refers to the Gospels on 12 occasions.

Gospel in Islam - Wikipedia

The Baha'i writings as I'm discussing with another Baha'i is supportive of the apostles of Christ and the gospels themselves.

That is not to say there are errors. However Abdu'l-Baha has said:

"The Bible and the Gospels are most honored in the estimation of all Baha'is. One of the spiritual utterances of His Holiness Christ in his Sermon on the Mount is preferable to me to all the writings of the philosophers. It is the religious duty of every Baha'i to read and comprehend the meanings of the Old and New Testament."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 14, p. 55)

So I understand you have your Q-lite that supports a worldview put forward by your preceptor. I can't see compelling evidence to accept it and reject the New Testament. Obviously you can and you must do what makes the most sense to you.

 

[oldbadger]

@Hockeycowboy & @Deeje , how different Bahai belief about afterlife when compared to your beliefs, don't you think? But the sentence about wishing for death seems to match in connection with what I once read about JWs in the Nazi death camps.

Here is a verse written by Bahauallah posted by @Trailblazer :-

“The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

 

[Deeje]

@Hockeycowboy & @Deeje , how different Bahai belief about afterlife when compared to your beliefs, don't you think?

Hey OB....yes, we are poles apart on that score. We do not believe in a conscious afterlife of any description. i.e. We do not have a belief that an immortal part of man separates from the body at death. Strangely, we are one of a small number of faiths professing Abrahamic religion that rejects the idea of an immortal soul, despite the fact that we got it from OT scripture. The ancient Jews did not have that belief, but the later Jews adopted it from platonic Greek influence, just as Christendom did. I would go so far as to say that this belief permeates just about every religious culture in the world. It is nothing more than a perpetuation of the devil's first lie. "You surely will not die".
The Bible teaches resurrection and a reuniting of families here on earth for the majority of humankind.

But the sentence about wishing for death seems to match in connection with what I once read about JWs in the Nazi death camps.

Anyone suffering in the death camps envied the dead. Protracted deprivation and suffering with no relief in sight is a living death. Many of my brothers went to their deaths with complete confidence in the resurrection. They knew that Sheol would yield them up when God's kingdom took over earth's rulership. (John 5:28-29) They knew that they would be with their families again in God's due time.

Those sleeping in their graves have no consciousness, so there is no suffering or pain of separation. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
I remember feeling immense relief when I realized that my father was just sleeping, not devastated at being so suddenly snatched from out lives.

Here is a verse written by Bahauallah posted by @Trailblazer :-

“The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

These words are a contradiction of scripture. The mysteries of the resurrection were demonstrated when Jesus and his apostles walked the earth. One only has to read the account of the raising of Lazarus and Jesus divulged everything we need to know about death.

John 11:11-14..."After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died".

Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping" and that he was traveling there to wake him up. The disciples thought he was talking about literal sleep but Jesus confirmed that Lazarus had died.

I believe that there was a reason why Jesus did this.....Lazarus and his sisters, Mary and Martha were very dear to Jesus. Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way with his own death and resurrection, that would have meant that the three would have had different destinies. It would have meant that the three would be separated in the resurrection. Lazarus would have been among the righteous dead that Jesus was going to raise after his kingdom was established on earth, but Mary and her sister would be part of those with the "heavenly calling", raised to heaven in the "first resurrection" to rule with Jesus in heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

Raising Lazarus to life, only to die a second time makes no sense otherwise. Lazarus would have been a bit miffed I reckon if Jesus had plucked him from heavenly bliss to bring him back to this life....only to die again. Lazarus made no mention of where he had been and Jesus confirmed why.....he was "sleeping"......just not dreaming.

It appears that the prophet's quote is also alluding to belief in hell, speaking of 'fear and sorrow', which of course the Bible does not teach. You need an immortal soul to suffer consciously in eternal torment. God does not give eternal life to the wicked. And I'm sure he has better things to do than torment them for the rest of eternity. He will just leave them in their graves, never to awaken again. Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. I do not know of too many others who reject belief in an immortal soul. It is definitely not a Bible teaching.

We see everlasting life as possible in mortal flesh. Everlasting life is not immortality.....you cannot kill an immortal, but you can give mortals the means to go on living...as God did in Eden.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Anyone suffering in the death camps envied the dead. Protracted deprivation and suffering with no relief in sight is a living death. Many of my brothers went to their deaths with complete confidence in the resurrection. They knew that Sheol would yield them up when God's kingdom took over earth's rulership. (John 5:28-29) They knew that they would be with their families again in God's due time.

Those sleeping in their graves have no consciousness, so there is no suffering or pain of separation. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
I remember feeling immense relief when I realized that my father was just sleeping, not devastated at being so suddenly snatched from out lives.

Hi @Deeje

I hope your father wasn't one of the ones in the concentration camps?

The Baha'i suffered under the Nazis too.

Although the European Baha’is were small in number in the 1930’s, the Baha’i teachings had attracted a significant and fairly high-profile group of intellectuals, writers and artists (many from Jewish backgrounds) in Germany and the surrounding European and Eastern European countries since the German Baha’i community began in 1905. As a result of that growth Himmler, on behalf of the German government, banned the Baha’i Faith in 1937. Many Baha’is died as a result.

The Baha’is and the Nazis

In regards an afterlife the Baha'is are in agreement with most Christians, Muslims, Hindus and some Buddhists that an afterlife is real. We don't believe in the Devil so I guess you needn't feel so excluded on that score.

What about the 144,000? Don't they get to come back from the dead?

Who are the 144,000?

 

[oldbadger]

Hey OB....yes, we are poles apart on that score. We do not believe in a conscious afterlife of any description. i.e. We do not have a belief that an immortal part of man separates from the body at death. Strangely, we are one of a small number of faiths professing Abrahamic religion that rejects the idea of an immortal soul, despite the fact that we got it from OT scripture. The ancient Jews did not have that belief, but the later Jews adopted it from platonic Greek influence, just as Christendom did. I would go so far as to say that this belief permeates just about every religious culture in the world. It is nothing more than a perpetuation of the devil's first lie. "You surely will not die".
The Bible teaches resurrection and a reuniting of families here on earth for the majority of humankind.



Anyone suffering in the death camps envied the dead. Protracted deprivation and suffering with no relief in sight is a living death. Many of my brothers went to their deaths with complete confidence in the resurrection. They knew that Sheol would yield them up when God's kingdom took over earth's rulership. (John 5:28-29) They knew that they would be with their families again in God's due time.

Those sleeping in their graves have no consciousness, so there is no suffering or pain of separation. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
I remember feeling immense relief when I realized that my father was just sleeping, not devastated at being so suddenly snatched from out lives.



These words are a contradiction of scripture. The mysteries of the resurrection were demonstrated when Jesus and his apostles walked the earth. One only has to read the account of the raising of Lazarus and Jesus divulged everything we need to know about death.

John 11:11-14..."After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died".

Jesus said that Lazarus was "sleeping" and that he was traveling there to wake him up. The disciples thought he was talking about literal sleep but Jesus confirmed that Lazarus had died.

I believe that there was a reason why Jesus did this.....Lazarus and his sisters, Mary and Martha were very dear to Jesus. Since no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way with his own death and resurrection, that would have meant that the three would have had different destinies. It would have meant that the three would be separated in the resurrection. Lazarus would have been among the righteous dead that Jesus was going to raise after his kingdom was established on earth, but Mary and her sister would be part of those with the "heavenly calling", raised to heaven in the "first resurrection" to rule with Jesus in heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

Raising Lazarus to life, only to die a second time makes no sense otherwise. Lazarus would have been a bit miffed I reckon if Jesus had plucked him from heavenly bliss to bring him back to this life....only to die again. Lazarus made no mention of where he had been and Jesus confirmed why.....he was "sleeping"......just not dreaming.

It appears that the prophet's quote is also alluding to belief in hell, speaking of' fear and sorrow', which of course the Bible does not teach. You need an immortal soul to suffer consciously in eternal torment. God does not give eternal life to the wicked. And I'm sure he has better things to do than torment them for the rest of eternity. He will just leave them in their graves, never to awaken again. Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. I do not know of too many others who reject belief in an immortal soul. It is definitely not a Bible teaching.

We see everlasting life as possible in mortal flesh. Everlasting life is not immortality.....you cannot kill an immortal, but you can give mortals the means to go on living...as God did in Eden.

Thankyou for a most interesting post.
You know that I am not a JW, but I do so appreciate arrow-straight posts ......... I acknowledge your strength of beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree but that wasn't my point. My point is that even as Baha'is we are in no position to judge the soul of another. Only God can do that. To presume on the basis of that quote that only Baha'is can make it to heaven is to make exactly the same assumption that Christians would on the basis of John 14:6.

I am not judging anyone. I am not assuming anything about who gets to heaven. As I told oldbadger, we Baha’is have been told very little about the afterlife.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345​

We don’t even know if Baha’u’llah is referring to ALL believers, or just Baha’is, although there are some other quotes that indicate only Baha’is have everlasting life.

“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183​

God judges each soul on its own merits. The Guardian cannot tell you what the attitude of God would be towards a person who lives a good life in most ways, but not in this way … We must be hopeful of God’s Mercy but not impose upon it.
(Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 365)

But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the Mercy of God and His Bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His Mercy if we reach out for it.
(Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 209)

Whoso falleth short of this standard with good reason shall incur no blame. God, verily, is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 46)

What I see happening in the Baha’i Faith is exactly what I see happened in Christianity. They have the Bible and we have the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi. Those can be interpreted in more than one way. Also, and more importantly, you can always find another passage that says something a little different.

Also, one must have the full context, not just parts of the letters of Shoghi Effendi.

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12,
1957)

"God judges each soul on its own merits. The Guardian cannot tell you what the attitude of God would be towards a person who lives a good life in most ways, but not in this way. All he can tell you is that it is forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and that one so afflicted should struggle and struggle again to overcome it. We must be hopeful of God's Mercy but not impose upon it."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 26, 1950)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File​

Christianity is not a lawless religion and Paul didn't do away with the law. Instead he choose the laws that were still relevant for the New Covenant and laid down a few new ones.

Paul clearly emphasised the importance of law.

"Therefore, the law is indeed holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good . . . " (Romans 7:12)

"Are we, then, abolishing law through faith? MAY IT NEVER BE! Rather, we are establishing law." (Romans 3:31)

"Let me ask those of you who want to be subject to the Law: do you not hear what the Law says?" (Galatians 4:21).

What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is . . . (Galatians 3:19)

Verses need to be read in context. It could be any clearer. Paul did away with the Law. Before Jesus came, we were under the Law, but after Jesus came we were no longer bound by the Law.

Galatians 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Question: "What does it mean that Christians are not under the law?"

The Law is the issue that has to be dealt with in order to bring us into a right relationship with God. "Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). This passage reveals that the Law cannot justify or make righteous any man in God’s sight, which is why God sent His Son to completely fulfil the requirements of the Law for all those who would ever believe in Him.

Christ Jesus redeemed us from the curse that has been brought through the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He substituted Himself in our place and upon the cross took the punishment that is justly ours so that we are no longer under the curse of the Law. In doing so, He fulfilled and upheld the requirements of the Law. This does not mean that Christians are to be lawless, as some advocate today—a teaching called antinomianism. Rather, it means that we are free from the Mosaic Law and instead under the law of Christ, which is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God.
What does it mean that Christians are not under the law?

As a New covenant was established (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:26-29) and the Old Covenant abrograted (Hebrews 8:13) new laws were laid down and the obligation to follow many of the Mosaic laws was no longer required.

The New Testament is clear that both faith and deeds are required (James 2:14-26). To truly understand Paul is to appreciate that he emphasised both good conduct and faith. Abdu'l-Baha praised Paul highly for his high standard of conduct after all and affirmed the primacy of Peter who in turn affirmd the truth of Paul's letters (2 Peter 3:15-16).

The idea that we are saved by Grace alone and our deeds don't matter came not from Paul but originated from the Lutheran reformation who have taken Paul's statements out of context. Some scholars have argued that Martin Luther even removed books from the Bible that didn't agree with his theology.

Sola fide - Wikipedia

Luther's canon - Wikipedia

The Catholics have a different take on it.

Saved by Faith Alone? - Catholic Stand

I am going to start a new thread containing what Udo Schaefer said about Paul, but because the book is not online, I have to type that section from the book. It has many references so that is why it is taking a long time to type up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for that info....

Many years ago my late wife told me that both her mother and father would gain automatic entry to Bahai Heaven simply because they had borne a child who became a Baha'i.

Do you know anything about this?

No, I have never heard of any such thing... Rumors abound.
There are no free rides in the Baha'i Faith. Entry into Heaven depends upon faith in Baha'u'llah, obedience to the Laws, and good deeds.

I guess you could call Baha'i Heaven the Crimson Ark. Here is a passage about that:

“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-170​

 

[oldbadger]

No, I have never heard of any such thing... Rumors abound.
There are no free rides in the Baha'i Faith. Entry into Heaven depends upon faith in Baha'u'llah, obedience to the Laws, and good deeds.

No probs..... but that's what Bahais in the UK circa 70's were saying and being told. But then, the emphasis was slightly different back then, I think; there was more emphasis on Bahai related miracles back then as well.

 

[CG Didymus]

Surely......
I like the idea of gold books best. Especially if I could only find even one, just a smallish one.

Paul took a brilliant campaign started by the Baptist, carried forward for nearly a year by Yeshua, and manipulated it into the most brilliant mass-control religion based upon......... 'Do this, Obey that, and get to everlasting Heaven...... or don't do it and roast in eternal seething flames'. And it worked! But not now, not for the World now.

Whilst I do feel empathy, sympathy and friendship for some Christian Churches, I see in Bahai a furtherance of 'Do this for Heaven', in fact I have yet to ask Bahais what will happen to me after death. I guess I'm too scared to ask, these days.

As far as I remember, both Jesus and Paul used the "Do this, Obey that, and get to everlasting Heaven... or don't do it and roast in eternal seething flames" message. But, there seems to be a big emphasis on one thing that they have to do, and that is put their faith in Jesus.

The Christians I know make it clear, without Jesus, no matter how good a person is, will get the flames. So "obeying" becomes secondary, and almost no impact on whether a professing Christian would not get into heaven. They do make the exception that those that never really meant if when they professed faith in Jesus. But, who means it 100% or obeys 100%? And maybe this is why Catholics came up with Purgatory... to give people a chance to get totally purified.

But Baha'is and no hell is getting kind of a problem. If the best Baha'is are somewhere at the top level in their heaven, and it goes down from there, somewhere near the bottom might not be all that good of a place. And then, what about the very bottom? Who's going there? Covenant Breakers? Murders? Politicians? Rapists? And what will they be doing? If their is any justice from God, it seems like a little punishment would be expected.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I have never heard of any such thing... Rumors abound.
There are no free rides in the Baha'i Faith. Entry into Heaven depends upon faith in Baha'u'llah, obedience to the Laws, and good deeds.

No probs..... but that's what Bahais in the UK circa 70's were saying and being told. But then, the emphasis was slightly different back then, I think; there was more emphasis on Bahai related miracles back then as well.

This quote;

"One of the distinguishing characteristics of this most great Dispensation is that the kin of such as have recognized and embraced the truth of this Revelation and have, in the glory of His name, the Sovereign Lord, quaffed the choice, sealed wine from the chalice of the love of the one true God, will, upon their death, if they are outwardly non-believers, be graciously invested with divine forgiveness and partake of the ocean of His Mercy. This bounty, however, will be vouchsafed only to such souls as have inflicted no harm upon Him Who is the Sovereign Truth nor upon His loved ones. Thus hath it been ordained by Him Who is the Lord of the Throne on High and the Ruler of this world and of the world to come. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 386)

Also this one;

"Thou hast mentioned the station of parents in the next world. One of the special bounties of this Revelation is that whoever accepteth the Dayspring of the Cause, his parents, although they may not have attained the recognition of the Revelation, the splendours of the Sun of divine favor will be vouchsafed unto them. This is one of His bounties bestowed upon His lovers. Render thanks and be of those who are grateful." (Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The Universal House of Justice, 1991 Aug 28, The Condition of non-Bahá’í Relatives after Death)

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

As far as I remember, both Jesus and Paul used the "Do this, Obey that, and get to everlasting Heaven... or don't do it and roast in eternal seething flames" message. But, there seems to be a big emphasis on one thing that they have to do, and that is put their faith in Jesus.

Paul was full of..... Pauline Christianity.
But the Historical Jesus was only preparing the people for an uprising, I reckon, to bring back fair and good-living on Earth.

The Christians I know make it clear, without Jesus, no matter how good a person is, will get the flames. So "obeying" becomes secondary, and almost no impact on whether a professing Christian would not get into heaven. They do make the exception that those that never really meant if when they professed faith in Jesus. But, who means it 100% or obeys 100%? And maybe this is why Catholics came up with Purgatory... to give people a chance to get totally purified.

Sure......... the rules got made by various Christians, long after the true Yeshua was gone.

But Baha'is and no hell is getting kind of a problem. If the best Baha'is are somewhere at the top level in their heaven, and it goes down from there, somewhere near the bottom might not be all that good of a place. And then, what about the very bottom? Who's going there? Covenant Breakers? Murders? Politicians? Rapists? And what will they be doing? If their is any justice from God, it seems like a little punishment would be expected.

Well, after what some Bahais have said to me, about me, on this forum, I can only hope that the Bahai concepts are non existent!
If Bahai is right then I might be meeting with you somewhere where neither of us wanted to be.

 

[paarsurrey]

You are free to believe whatever you wish because you have free will.

It is a Baha’i belief that Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets, which means He was the last Prophet in the prophetic cycle of religion. The Dispensation of Muhammad ended in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The Bab ushered in the Bahai Cycle (also called the Cycle of Fulfillment because all the prophecies from former religions will be fulfilled during this Cycle). We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

A dispensation is a time period, so only one dispensation can exist at a time. Two dispensations cannot take place concurrently.

I believe it is till the dispensation of Muhammad because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.
Quran has many other features** that I don't find any Bahai friends here has presented so far in Bahaullah's writings.

Regards
______________
*[98:3]
A Messenger from Allah, reciting unto them the pure Scriptures.
[98:4]
Therein are lasting commandments.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 98: Al-Bayyinah
**[62:3]
He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 62: Al-Jumu`ah

 

[Trailblazer]

No probs..... but that's what Bahais in the UK circa 70's were saying and being told. But then, the emphasis was slightly different back then, I think; there was more emphasis on Bahai related miracles back then as well.

Yes, things were different back in the 70s, and the emphasis was different, in the United States as well.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe it is till the dispensation of Muhammad because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.
Quran has many other features** that I don't find any Bahai friends here has presented so far in Bahaullah's writings.

Regards
______________
*[98:3]
A Messenger from Allah, reciting unto them the pure Scriptures.
[98:4]
Therein are lasting commandments.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 98: Al-Bayyinah
**[62:3]
He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 62: Al-Jumu`ah

To no derail this thread, this post - Quran or Bible is it the Final Word of God?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe it is till the dispensation of Muhammad because Bahaullah could not give any , even one, core and lasting* teachings that could surpass the teachings of Quran.

That is the same thing the Christians say about the Bible, but it is really a matter of personal opinion, isn't it? Everyone thinks there religion is better than any other religion.

The issue is not which teachings surpass which other teachings, the issue is which teachings are the teachings humanity NEEDS in the present age. The spiritual teachings in the Bible and the Qur'an are just as good as the Baha'i Writings but we have other problems to contend with in this new age that are not addressed in the Bible or the Qur'an.

Unless you KNOW all the Bahai teachings you cannot say that there are no Baha'i teachings that surpass the teachings of the Qur'an. Do you know all the Bahai teachings?

 

[Trailblazer]

This quote;

"One of the distinguishing characteristics of this most great Dispensation is that the kin of such as have recognized and embraced the truth of this Revelation and have, in the glory of His name, the Sovereign Lord, quaffed the choice, sealed wine from the chalice of the love of the one true God, will, upon their death, if they are outwardly non-believers, be graciously invested with divine forgiveness and partake of the ocean of His Mercy. This bounty, however, will be vouchsafed only to such souls as have inflicted no harm upon Him Who is the Sovereign Truth nor upon His loved ones. Thus hath it been ordained by Him Who is the Lord of the Throne on High and the Ruler of this world and of the world to come. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 386)

Also this one;

"Thou hast mentioned the station of parents in the next world. One of the special bounties of this Revelation is that whoever accepteth the Dayspring of the Cause, his parents, although they may not have attained the recognition of the Revelation, the splendours of the Sun of divine favor will be vouchsafed unto them. This is one of His bounties bestowed upon His lovers. Render thanks and be of those who are grateful." (Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in The Universal House of Justice, 1991 Aug 28, The Condition of non-Bahá’í Relatives after Death)

Regards Tony

Wow. Thanks for those quotes. I had no idea. Maybe that means my dad who died in 1964 as an atheist will have a chance to recognize Baha'ullah in the next world. My brother was the first in my family to become a Baha'i, in 1968, then me and my sister in 1970, then my mother in 1975. So that was all of the nuclear family except my dad who was deceased.

My husband is going to be happy to hear about this because his mother had a very difficult life and she lost faith in God. She died in 1989. His sister now has dementia so cannot be communicated with. His sister when lucid was a Christian. She was not receptive to the Baha'i Faith but she never attacked it. My husband's father now deceased became a Baha'i shortly before my husband became a Baha'i.

 

[Deeje]

Hi @Deeje

I hope your father wasn't one of the ones in the concentration camps?

The Baha'i suffered under the Nazis too.

Hello again Adrian......no, my father served overseas in the military but was thankfully not involved in that awful tragedy. I am grateful that he never actually participated in any armed conflict.

He died very suddenly at home, at the age of 52. I was standing right beside him and he died as the result of a massive clot that lodged in his heart. He never uttered a sound. One minute he was sitting in his chair watching TV and the next minute he was gone. He probably never knew what hit him. Our devastation over his sudden exit was always accompanied by our fear that he too was experiencing the pain of sudden separation from the family he loved. This always weighed heavily on me....until I saw in the scriptures that death is a state of unconsciousness. Those who 'sleep', can't suffer. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) A huge burden was lifted.

Although the European Baha’is were small in number in the 1930’s, the Baha’i teachings had attracted a significant and fairly high-profile group of intellectuals, writers and artists (many from Jewish backgrounds) in Germany and the surrounding European and Eastern European countries since the German Baha’i community began in 1905. As a result of that growth Himmler, on behalf of the German government, banned the Baha’i Faith in 1937. Many Baha’is died as a result.

The Baha’is and the Nazis.

Thank you for the link....very informative, and anyone who thinks that they know the history of their nation needs to understand that whitewashed history is very damaging.....it is what nations have always done however. None are the heroes they paint themselves to be.

Jehovah's Witnesses were somewhat unique in the death camps in that, like the first Christians, they were given the option to renounce their faith....or be executed. Christians torn to pieces in the arenas by wild animals for Roman entertainment were also given the opportunity to walk free.....all it took was a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the Emperor but they refused. They preferred death over unfaithfulness.

We are grateful to say that only a very few weak individuals took that option in Nazi Germany....I believe that their cowardice got them nowhere anyway. The faithful stood firm and went to their deaths in quiet dignity. This led some of the SS guards to admire their courage and later these former enemies became our spiritual brothers.

In regards an afterlife the Baha'is are in agreement with most Christians, Muslims, Hindus and some Buddhists that an afterlife is real. We don't believe in the Devil so I guess you needn't feel so excluded on that score.

We have no belief in a hell of eternal torment, but that doesn't mean we discount the existence of a real devil. (a rebel spirit) The Bible's whole scenario from start to finish is basically all about him.....what he did....the issues he raised.....the damage he caused...and how God undoes it, leaving the precious gift of free will intact.
If he was not a real entity, then the Bible makes no sense to us.

 

[Deeje]

What about the 144,000? Don't they get to come back from the dead?

Who are the 144,000?

I'd like to address this separately in some detail because I believe that this is a very important aspect of the Bible's teachings that very few actually understand.

From your link......(in blue)

"Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled."

The 144,000 are mentioned a few times in Revelation.

Revelation 14:1-4..."Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. . . .3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb."

Two points here....the 144,000 are seen "with" the Lamb (Jesus Christ) "standing on Mount Zion". (not the literal location but representative of what Zion stands for....the heavenly seat of Jehovah's worship) they have their identification written on their foreheads. It says that these have "been purchased from the earth"...."from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb".

So what does this mean? It clearly identifies this group as chosen from "among mankind" but as a distinctly different 'class' of believers.
As "firstfruits" we understand that these were the best of the crop from an agricultural point of view.....the secondary crop were not seen as the best of the best, though still good for food. "Firstfruits" indicated that 'secondary fruits' were also a part of this story.

"The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people."

The Bible does teach of dual classes with different destinies. Along with the heavenly class is also seen another group contrasted by no number....an infinite number are in this group, attributing salvation to God and the Lamb but not part of the numbered group.

After again mentioning the 144,000 the apostle John said.....

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God. . . . 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:9-14)

This second group are survivors of the "great tribulation" here on earth. For Christ to take some (a limited number) to heaven makes sense because his kingdom will have heavenly rulers reigning over earthly subjects. These rulers will also have the role of priests, (Revelation 20:6) which requires sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. There are no sinners in heaven.

I would also disagree with whom is represented (in the link) as part of this heavenly class. Those taken to heaven have "a place" that Jesus said he was going to "prepare" for them just before he left the earthly scene. His disciples at first had no idea about where that place was initially....because the Jewish teaching about Messiah's kingdom was entirely earthly. They had no teaching to indicate a heavenly resurrection at all. Even as Jesus was leaving them to return to heaven, they asked..."Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6) He told them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait for "the helper, the holy spirit" to instruct them. We know that at Pentecost, God poured out his spirit on the group of about 120 disciples, both men and women. and these then fully understood the reason for their choosing. Their anointing gave them an inordinate (but for humans unnatural) desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord.

The pre-Christian servants of God i.e. ones like Abraham, Moses or Daniel will not serve in the heavenly realms of the Kingdom because they entertained no such hope. They will no doubt have important roles in the earthly domain of the Kingdom just as they did before.

No one went to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13) and only those taken into the new covenant were to be part of the heavenly kingdom. Only those who partake of Christ's death and resurrection will rule with him in heaven. All of the first Christians were included in this group. The Christian scriptures were written by them and for them. But as this is the devil's world (1 John 5:19) apostasy was foretold, and it took place very shortly after the death of the apostles.

Paul warned..."Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him . . . .Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction". (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Fleshly Israel had cut herself off from God by silencing yet another prophet who preached against them, (Matthew 23:37-39) so God turned to the Gentile nations to fill the ranks that Jews were supposed to fill...."Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. (Acts 15:14) Notice that these people were chosen to bear God's name (YHWH Jehovah).....a name the Jews had ceased to utter, despite the fact that God said it was to be his name "forever" among their generations. (Exodus 3:15)

The "great tribulation" is not a time for conversion, but a time for judgment. Once the tribulation breaks out, there will be no healing for opposers of God's Kingdom. (Matthew 25:31-33; Matthew 7:21-23)

"Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17)."

How does that even make sense? What is the purpose of the millennial reign of Christ and his 144,000?
God has, all this time been establishing his rightful sovereignty over mankind and teaching us the value of obedience to his laws in spite of the temptation to misuse free will.

Revelation 21:1-4 is the beginning of Christ's reign.....it is seen with Christ and his "bride" bringing the blessings of the Kingdom to mankind. This will mean an end to pain, suffering and death for all time to come. Humanity will be returned to their original sinless state during the 1,000 years of Christ's peaceful rule and when the kingdom has accomplished all that it was designed to do, all will return to the same conditions that Adam and his wife first experienced in Eden.
Then Christ will hand rulership back to his Father because Jehovah was supposed to be our King in the first place. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

No one seems to understand that it was never God's intention to take any humans to heaven originally.....he already had a family of spirit creatures there in great numbers. It was Adam's sin that saw the necessity to provide a savior (humans did not need one until sin entered the picture) and there would have been no need of a Kingdom (because God had already established his sovereignty over the human race)

This concentration on going to heaven and to elevate that as the ultimate destination for Christians is to miss the purpose of everything God has done up to now.

As Christ's disciples with an "earthly hope" (as opposed to those with a "heavenly calling") we see no distinction in importance whilst these ones are still in the flesh. Many would not even know that a brother or sister was anointed for heavenly life because among our ranks, Jesus said we were all brothers. We don't see the anointed as anyone but our dear brothers and sisters, alongside whom we serve our God together. We see this as what Jesus called "the little flock" and his "other sheep". Both belong to the same flock, but with different roles. None of those with an earthly hope feel envious, because we have no desire to go to heaven as these ones do.

So the way we understand the scriptures answers all the hard questions. Everything fits into one big picture that begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation which we see undergoing fulfillment in these last days. We are "in the Lord's day"...the peaceful rule of the Christ is already governing the conduct of disciples, but the rulership of the devil over this world has not yet concluded. We see the end looming but no one knows the exact time when the great tribulation will break out....all we know is that it will occur suddenly, seemingly without warning. This is why we are to "keep on the watch" (Matthew 24:42-44)

This is how we see those things.....based solely on scripture.