Didn't Satan Give Us Freewill?

[Pegg]

Yet we had the option to choose differently on our own? Was the serpent required for us to fall, the reason I ask is because of the question of the OP, is lucifer the only real anomaly with free will influencing everyone, angels and humans, to fall?

if the serpent didnt tempt eve, perhaps she would never have felt tempted to eat. So in some way, the serpent did encourage the misuse of freewill. Before him, no other angel did so... but that doesnt mean that another angel may not have ever rebelled too.

However, we can be absolutely confident that if in the future (after God has destroyed satan and other rebellious ones) anyone, human or angel, who rebels will be cut off immediately before they have a chance to even act on their wrong desires.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Ladies, Gents, come now - the common usage or even technical definition of the term perfect is not the issue here, what is the issue, is the usage for this particular discussion. Now let us merely concede that she wishes to use the term Perfect to convey the concept that she has attempted to describe - let us not get overly concerned with its correct technical definition nor its commonly accepted usage, nor even its common use in theological discussion... let us instead, for the purposes of this discussion, simply use the term as provided - or else use alternative terms and define those. I for one do not particularly mind if she uses the term 'perfect' to convey her own particular, judeo-christian leaning, understanding of the term with its emphasis on conformism and subjugation.

Rather than getting hung up on particular terminology, we would better be served examining the concepts underlying them. It certainly makes for more informative and less caustic discussions.

 

[Daviso452]

if the serpent didnt tempt eve, perhaps she would never have felt tempted to eat. So in some way, the serpent did encourage the misuse of freewill. Before him, no other angel did so... but that doesnt mean that another angel may not have ever rebelled too.

However, we can be absolutely confident that if in the future (after God has destroyed satan and other rebellious ones) anyone, human or angel, who rebels will be cut off immediately before they have a chance to even act on their wrong desires.

Why is that? Why does Satan even do what he does if he knows how its going to end? Why did God let Satan Rebel in the first place? Why did Satan himself even rebel in the first place, if he knows God is truly almighty?

If satan hates god, why does he do god's biding in hell? Why doesn't satan applaud us for joining him and not God?

What if God isn't as all-mighty as he says he is. Perhaps he can do a lot of things, but satan found out a weakness in him?

Perhaps Satan knows how to defeat God, and that the whole rapture thing was made up so that God could get more followers.

 

[Pegg]

Why is that? Why does Satan even do what he does if he knows how its going to end? Why did God let Satan Rebel in the first place? Why did Satan himself even rebel in the first place, if he knows God is truly almighty?

1. Because the issue of Soveriegnty and Gods righteousness and his superior form of rulership is what Satan challenged. By allowing time to settle the issue, an answer will finally be provided once for all time. Once the issue is settled, the precedent will be set and no one will challenge him again. Unlike us, God will not allow history to be repeated...he will use the past 6,000 years as evidence that such a challenge is baseless.

2. because he is jealous of Jehovah and that prompts him to keep opposing God. He is also proud...too proud to admit he is wrong.

3. for the same reason he allows all intelligent creatures to rebell...free will. He gave free will so that intelligent beings could be intelligent enough to make their own decisions.

If satan hates god, why does he do god's biding in hell? Why doesn't satan applaud us for joining him and not God?

Satan (the opposer/resister) would not be named as an ópposer or 'resister'if he was doing the things God wants him to do....that would be obedience, not resistence or opposition.

Satan does not dwell in hell....no one does. Hell is not a literal place. According to the scriptures it is the common grave. The place where we bury the dead. That is 'sheol' in hebrew and sheol is the word we translate into hell in english. So hell is not a place where anything living exists... only bones and worms exist in hell.

What if God isn't as all-mighty as he says he is. Perhaps he can do a lot of things, but satan found out a weakness in him?

Perhaps Satan knows how to defeat God, and that the whole rapture thing was made up so that God could get more followers.

if that were true, why did the christian church manage to survive in the first place? Why did any of Gods people (the Isrealites) manage to survive in a world which is said to be under Satans control and dominon?

who protected them and kept them in existence?


And im a christian and I dont believe in the rupture.

 

[mr black]

Pegg.
Do all the planets in the universe containing intelligent beings have many and varied creation myths or do they just rehash all of the creation myths that we have?
What I'm asking is how many satans are there and do they all have their own worlds as a kingdom?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Ladies, Gents, come now - the common usage or even technical definition of the term perfect is not the issue here, what is the issue, is the usage for this particular discussion. Now let us merely concede that she wishes to use the term Perfect to convey the concept that she has attempted to describe - let us not get overly concerned with its correct technical definition nor its commonly accepted usage, nor even its common use in theological discussion... let us instead, for the purposes of this discussion, simply use the term as provided - or else use alternative terms and define those. I for one do not particularly mind if she uses the term 'perfect' to convey her own particular, judeo-christian leaning, understanding of the term with its emphasis on conformism and subjugation.

Rather than getting hung up on particular terminology, we would better be served examining the concepts underlying them. It certainly makes for more informative and less caustic discussions.

I would be glad to, except, in the quote of hers which I facepalmed, she swaps definitions even after stating which one she'd intended. Once that definition of 'perfect' comes into play, rather than the one she claimed to intend, the premise becomes untenable.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg.
Do all the planets in the universe containing intelligent beings have many and varied creation myths or do they just rehash all of the creation myths that we have?
What I'm asking is how many satans are there and do they all have their own worlds as a kingdom?

i really dont know. The scriptures do not state so.

 

[Pegg]

I would be glad to, except, in the quote of hers which I facepalmed, she swaps definitions even after stating which one she'd intended. Once that definition of 'perfect' comes into play, rather than the one she claimed to intend, the premise becomes untenable.

perfect is as perfect does.

Imperfection is seen in the action of the individual. If you do something according to the way God wants it does, it is considered perfection. If you fail to do the way God wants done, it becomes imperfect.

so Eve was perfect while she maintained her obedience to God. From the point she disobeyed, she stopped doing things correctly, rightly, perfectly.... she was no longer in harmony with God.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Imperfection is seen in the action of the individual. If you do something according to the way God wants it does, it is considered perfection. If you fail to do the way God wants done, it becomes imperfect.

so Eve was perfect while she maintained her obedience to God. From the point she disobeyed, she stopped doing things correctly, rightly, perfectly.... she was no longer in harmony with God.

You also added statements of 'perfect' perfection, the other definitions, in that quote. Really, n/m. We have reached a dark cul de sac. Filled with garbage.

 

[mr black]

perfect is as perfect does.

Imperfection is seen in the action of the individual. If you do something according to the way God wants it does, it is considered perfection. If you fail to do the way God wants done, it becomes imperfect.

so Eve was perfect while she maintained her obedience to God. From the point she disobeyed, she stopped doing things correctly, rightly, perfectly.... she was no longer in harmony with God.

So god made Eve imperfect, because if she was perfect she wouldn't have disobeyed, even if she knew what disobedience meant. If god made an imperfect being then god must be imperfect. Or are we discussing some other definition for perfect?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

From all this it would be correct then to say, that God is finished, Adam and Eve were born finished but became unfinished, thanks to them we all die because we were created unfinished and are unable to be finished, Jesus was however also finished, and in due time, Christianity will eventually be finished.

 

[Pegg]

So god made Eve imperfect, because if she was perfect she wouldn't have disobeyed, even if she knew what disobedience meant. If god made an imperfect being then god must be imperfect. Or are we discussing some other definition for perfect?

if it is possible for an imperfect person to do something perfectly in accord with Gods will, it is possible for a perfect person to something imperfectly.

Or are you saying its not possible for an imperfect person to make a good decision based on righteousness?

 

[mr black]

From all this it would be correct then to say, that God is finished, Adam and Eve were born finished but became unfinished, thanks to them we all die because we were created unfinished and are unable to be finished, Jesus was however also finished, and in due time, Christianity will eventually be finished.

That's how I read it. I think.

 

[mr black]

Or are you saying its not possible for an imperfect person to make a good decision based on righteousness?

So now good=perfect.

 

[Pegg]

So now good=perfect.

you really want to keep going around incircles like this?

 

[mr black]

you really want to keep going around incircles like this?

In order that your beliefs make any sense to you, it is you who spins like a top. It really is sad Pegg, that every time someone destroys your arguments, you change horses and claim that black really is white but white can't be black.
Now there's a nice mixture of metaphors.

 

[Pegg]

In order that your beliefs make any sense to you, it is you who spins like a top. It really is sad Pegg, that every time someone destroys your arguments, you change horses and claim that black really is white but white can't be black.
Now there's a nice mixture of metaphors.

and you keep moving the goalposts. I answer one question and you turn it around to a different scenario.


but that ok, the bible always has an answer.

 

[nnmartin]

So god made Eve imperfect, because if she was perfect she wouldn't have disobeyed, even if she knew what disobedience meant. If god made an imperfect being then god must be imperfect. Or are we discussing some other definition for perfect?

in my book it says that Eve was perfect until Satan lead her astray.

From this came the Fall of Man.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

What's your definition of 'perfect' in that context, Martin? And, if it's different than Pegg's, how are we Gentiles supposed to justify the different interpretations and take it seriously, I wonder?

 

[nnmartin]

Eve is like the Goddess.