Didn't Satan Give Us Freewill?

[mr black]

i dont think that is the case. The scriptures indicate that a person could still commit wrong even when they are living in Gods new world of righteousness. So free will still exists there.

This scripture speaks of life in Gods new world after he removes satan and the wicked and he himself is ruling mankind:
Isaiah 65;20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.

it shows that if someone sins, he will still die. The difference here is that death will be instant....that person will not be permitted to produce offspring after they have sinned like Adam and Eve did.

Not according to Revelation 21: 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away."

 

[Pegg]

How can you have the ability to reason on matters perfectly - yet reason badly? That does not logically follow...

choice.

the decisions made determine the outcome. had a different decision been made, a different outcome would have been had.

I simply cannot grasp your interpretation of perfect I suppose... let us skip over that for now as it is not central to the point.
However, as mentioned before, an omnipotent god could have chosen to remove that imperfection - any consequence of the 'sin' - however he chose NOT to.

the imperfection is seen by the actions of the individual. So God would have had to erase time itself to erase the imperfection. im not sure if that is even possible.

To understand perfection we have to consider that it is not absolute. The very meaning of perfection in the scriptures according to the hebrew terms means to 'come to completion'... that implies purpose and meeting ones purpose or duty.
If the purpose or duty is not completed, then imperfection is the result.

When A&E disobeyed, they did not complete their duty toward God...therefore imperfection resulted.

Upon what authority - or from what source - do you claim that gods laws are set in stone?

One of the definitions of law given in Webster’s Third New International Dictionary is “the observed regularity of nature.” Just as those laws cannot be changed or altered, so it is with Gods moral laws and his regulations....like the physical laws of nature, they cannot be modified or changed.

the holy scriptures make this point clear... Gods laws stand forever.
Isaiah 33:22 For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Statute-giver
James 4:12 One there is that is lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy
Isaiah 55:11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results
Psalm 33:9 For he himself said, and it came to be; He himself commanded, and it proceeded to stand so.
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the heart of a man, but the counsel of Jehovah is what will stand

potentially yes - however that would depend on me being UNABLE to treat the problem in a non painful way - an omnipotent entity IS ABLE to do so - once again, according to my understanding of your interpretation of the ramifications of the original sin, He Chose not to.

this comes down to what you think 'omnipotent' means. It doesnt mean he can do anything because in the scriptures he says he cannot lie....so omnipotent is not infinite.

Its so easy to say that God should just have done things differently from our standpoint. But you need to look at the bigger picture... we are just a small part of that picture. there were others involved in rebellion...not only us. There were issues of sovereignty and Gods own righteousness was callled into question.

So the issues are not all about us. We have to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and start trying to see the bigger picture. We are not the most important things in all this.

... Yet that is exactly what you say is God's intention once we achieve 'perfection'; and once again, an omnipotent god could have removed the 'consequences' such as 'death' without other negative outcomes such as making us puppets.

perfection is seen in our actions...doing what is right according to the standards God himself abides by. Seeing he is the life giver, and gives his own spirit to his creatures to enable them to live, he is well within his rights to take away his spirit from those who reject his standards.

some things are repulsive to him...he doets not have to abide by things he haes.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Just as those laws cannot be changed or altered, so it is with Gods moral laws and his regulations....like the physical laws of nature, they cannot be modified or changed.

the holy scriptures make this point clear... Gods laws stand forever.
Isaiah 33:22 James 4:12 Isaiah 55:11 Psalm 33:9 Proverbs 19:21

Not ONE of those nor when taken together says that God's law HAS existed forever, only that it WILL exist for ever. And there is nothing to suggest that physical laws cannot be changed.

this comes down to what you think 'omnipotent' means. It doesnt mean he can do anything because in the scriptures he says he cannot lie....so omnipotent is not infinite.

Okay, yet that does not mean that you can take 'he cannot lie' and interpret that to mean he cannot murder (because he did that) or that he cannot steal or anything else. You cannot just make up new rules that god has to follow - there is no authority - even in the bible itself that says that anyone (including prophets) can do so.

Its so easy to say that God should just have done things differently from our standpoint. But you need to look at the bigger picture... we are just a small part of that picture. there were others involved in rebellion...not only us.

Actually to be more specific WE were not involved at all - so yes, it is an easy call that God should have done things differently.

There were issues of sovereignty and Gods own righteousness was callled into question.

Actually, even Adam's direct disobedience (ignoring Eve for the moment) does not question God's righteousness nor even his authority; he only fails to abide by that authority.

So the issues are not all about us. We have to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and start trying to see the bigger picture. We are not the most important things in all this.

Actually, yes we are the most important part of it in one respect - that of the consequences (including DEATH) of 'sins' by our ancestors which have been placed on us by their actions and then not been removed by a supposedly omnipotent, omnibenevolent god. We are clearly the most important part there - and it is not 'feeling sorry for outselves' to question a (near) omnipotent omni-benevolent God's power or kindness in light of such evidence.

Seeing he is the life giver, and gives his own spirit to his creatures to enable them to live, he is well within his rights to take away his spirit from those who reject his standards.

Except that no where is it stated that we need that spirit to live after it was already granted to us - nor that the action's of our ancestors would be a sound or even just basis for removing such a spirit from their descendants.

some things are repulsive to him...he doets not have to abide by things he haes.

... That would mean he could choose to ignore those pesky universal laws if he wanted to - that, or an omni-benevolent being would hate nothing because that is the opposite of benevolance.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

perfect does not mean one cannot make a mistake. Perfection is relative to how ones free will is used and the decisions one makes. Having a flawless mind with the ability to reason on matters perfectly does not mean that one could not reason badly.

Sure it does. Otherwise what makes it deserve the label 'perfect' in the first place??

How is it perfect when it makes errors?

I think you are simply jamming a host of positive attributes together while simultaneously wanting to make arbitrary exceptions to the definitions of them at any time, so you can indulge this Christian pathology towards blame.

Any time the phrases 'free will' or 'choice' come into the equation, it indicates this 'blame' desire.

 

[Pegg]

Not according to Revelation 21: 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away."

that would rightly apply to those who obey Gods laws

Revelation also shows that there will be many who will rebel when Satan is released from his prison
Revelation 20:7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them

disobedience will always lead a person to death...weather its now in this time, or during the time that mankind have been brought back to perfection.

 

[mr black]

Some religious people need to redefine just about every word in their holy scripture in order that their holy scripture align with their beliefs. They can, in fact, have several different definitions for the same word if needs be.

 

[Pegg]

Sure it does. Otherwise what makes it deserve the label 'perfect' in the first place??

How is it perfect when it makes errors?

this passage is speaking about the angle who rebelled:

Ezekiel 28:14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

this angel was created faultless and he remained faultless UNTIL he chose an unrighteous path.

All of Gods creations have a purpose. For as long as they fulfill that purpose they remain in perfection....if they leave off from their intended purpose, they become imperfect.

 

[mr black]

that would rightly apply to those who obey Gods laws

Revelation also shows that there will be many who will rebel when Satan is released from his prison
Revelation 20:7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them

disobedience will always lead a person to death...weather its now in this time, or during the time that mankind have been brought back to perfection.

that would rightly apply to those who obey Gods laws

Nothing there making that claim, just something you've concocted?

 

[Pegg]

that would rightly apply to those who obey Gods laws

Nothing there making that claim, just something you've concocted?

I can understand why some would want to contest this idea.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Its so easy to say that God should just have done things differently from our standpoint. But you need to look at the bigger picture... we are just a small part of that picture. there were others involved in rebellion...not only us.

I am always amused to see this kind of sentiment.

We are just a small part, and yet God's attention is always oriented on only us; he creates and enforces laws only we have to follow; he has scads of scriptures speaking about or to only us. Heaven and Hell? Only for us. Sin? Only for us. Judgement, the Earth, all material things created? His horrendous unstoppable wrath and vengeance? Only for us.

Funny, the details.

 

[mr black]

this passage is speaking about the angle who rebelled:

Ezekiel 28:14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

this angel was created faultless and he remained faultless UNTIL he chose an unrighteous path.

All of Gods creations have a purpose. For as long as they fulfill that purpose they remain in perfection....if they leave off from their intended purpose, they become imperfect.

Surely finding unrighteousness inside perfection is an oxymoron. Obviously the author didn't think that through very well.

 

[mr black]

I can understand why some would want to contest this idea.

You can support your contention with evidence that you are telling the truth, a bridge too far?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I can understand why some would want to contest this idea.

Yah, because your idea is an arbitrary redefinition of the word 'perfect'

In your definition a highly disfigured, psychotic eunuch would be 'perfect' as long as they obeyed God's laws in lock-step.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Surely finding unrighteousness inside perfection is an oxymoron. Obviously the author didn't think that through very well.

Yes. The Hebrew origin tales are interesting as viewed as children's stories, but terminally flawed if viewed as a philosophical basis for morality, and those who follow them as such cannot understand that the Hebrews didn't hold a candle to their conquerors, the Hellenes, in this department. Not for many hundreds of years, at any rate. And by then it was too late.

 

[Pegg]

Yah, because your idea is an arbitrary redefinition of the word 'perfect'

In your definition a highly disfigured, psychotic eunuch would be 'perfect' as long as they obeyed God's laws in lock-step.

its based on how the original words

sha‧lam′ - Isa 60:20 '...and the days of your mourning will have come to completion'
ta‧mam′ - Isa 18:5 For before the harvest, when the blossom comes to perfection

in the greek the equivalent words are te′lei‧os, te‧lei‧o′tes, te‧lei‧o′o
they are used in the sense of something which fulfills its purpose as the following scriptures show:

Luke 18:4 As for that which fell among the thorns, ... they are completely choked and bring nothing to perfection

2Cor 12:9 and yet he really said to me: “My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness.”

John 19:28 After this, when Jesus knew that by now all things had been accomplished, in order that the scripture might be accomplished he said: “I am thirsty


When something is fufilling its intended purpose, it is perfect if its purpose is realised. In the case of a flower, the bud will perform its duty until the flower appears and thus it is perfect for doing what it was supposed to do.

in Luke 18 the word of God is preached for the purpose of bringing the hearer into harmony with God...if the word is choked out, nothing comes to perfection because the word failed to complete its intended purpose and the person does not come into harmony with God.

in 2 Corinthians the power of God was being made perfect by showing it has strength over human weakness by enabling the Apostle Paul to do the work even though he was weak and suffering.

and in John 19 the same words are used to describe 'accomplishment' of a certain task.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

So, in other words, the word 'perfection' is not actually applicable. So, stop using it when speaking of these subjects. Because in English, the word 'perfection' does not actually mean any of those things.

And this certainly calls into question whether or not your God should be described as 'perfect'. Interesting.

 

[mr black]

That would indicate that, as you contend, the absolutely accurate translations of the bible are in fact mistranslations. The word perfect was not what the authors meant, why is that still used in all translations and why are you the only one who has realised it, after you have used it often in it's common definition?
(edit)yeah what he said^^^

Changing definitions of words to align with beliefs....................

 

[Pegg]

So, in other words, the word 'perfection' is not actually applicable. So, stop using it when speaking of these subjects. Because in English, the word 'perfection' does not actually mean any of those things.

And this certainly calls into question whether or not your God should be described as 'perfect'. Interesting.

your reply indicates that you have not understood anything of my previous post. If you do not read the bible in terms of what the words meant to the writer, you will never understand it.

Our english language is not what the bible was written in so you have to read it as though you are reading it in greek or hebrew. The only way to do that is to know what the original meanings of the words are and how they apply.

 

[Pegg]

That would indicate that, as you contend, the absolutely accurate translations of the bible are in fact mistranslations. The word perfect was not what the authors meant, why is that still used in all translations and why are you the only one who has realised it, after you have used it often in it's common definition?
(edit)yeah what he said^^^

Changing definitions of words to align with beliefs....................

no, it is aligning beliefs with original definitions of words.

 

[mr black]

no, it is aligning beliefs with original definitions of words.

All of the translations are wrong? You've declared elsewhere their absolute accuracy. Do you now recind that claim?