Didn't Satan Give Us Freewill?

[Heathen Hammer]

Why, of course it is.

Do you have any control over it?

Because as a responsible parent there's no way you'd pass it to your offspring if you had any control over it.

You don't. God does.
Besides, your words actually strengthen my case: earlier you said " because Adam could no longer produce perfect offspring".
If at first he could, God changed that aspect of his ability to reproduce. By magic. One minute able, next minute, not.

QED

 

[Pegg]

Why, of course it is.

Do you have any control over it?

Because as a responsible parent there's no way you'd pass it to your offspring if you had any control over it.

well Adam did have control over it because he had the choice to avoid what he did completely. He chose to do what he knew would lead to death. So he did pass it onto us.

Besides, your words actually strengthen my case: earlier you said " because Adam could no longer produce perfect offspring".
If at first he could, God changed that aspect of his ability to reproduce. By magic. One minute able, next minute, not.

QED

this is true only because children are in the image of their parent. Adams image became tainted by his actions.... so our image is tainted.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

well Adam did have control over it because he had the choice to avoid what he did completely. He chose to do what he knew would lead to death. So he did pass it onto us.
[/i]

Don't be ridiculous. We have clearly explained all the reasons why he had no idea; and again he did not make the magical change, only God has that power.

this is true only because children are in the image of their parent. Adams image became tainted by his actions.... so our image is tainted.

Because of God.

 

[blackout]

this is true only because children are in the image of their parent. Adams image became tainted by his actions.... so our image is tainted.

Self I'maging can be a high art form,
and is not a thing to be taken lightly.

And children, they are raised in/under the cast
of their parent's own Self I'mage/s (Images of Self).
Even though cast and spell can later be broken,
our basic formation has already been completed,
from which point we can only work from where we are,
towards something (of personally) greater (value and expression).

Any true artist of Self though,
can Become TransFormed.
ReCast. reBorn.

(christianity not necessary to the process)

 

[9Westy9]

says death.

sounds dreary, but honestly, what is this life? To live and die in a few short years, to have to work hard only to loose it all in a moment??

that is no life at all.

Death has sting but no voice. All it tells us is that people will eventually die.

Dreary is temporary and can be overcome also. It doesn't tell us a lot.

It's the only life we can be certain of.

 

[Pegg]

Don't be ridiculous. We have clearly explained all the reasons why he had no idea; and again he did not make the magical change, only God has that power.

Because of God.

if thats what you wish to believe, then ok.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

In two threads now, all you have left is the Mere Opinion fallacy.

 

[Pegg]

In two threads now, all you have left is the Mere Opinion fallacy.

thats okay isnt it?

people dont always agree and im okay with that.

 

[idav]

What is your opinion? Do you think the angel Lucifer really had free will? He was able to go against the will of God?

 

[Pegg]

What is your opinion? Do you think the angel Lucifer really had free will? He was able to go against the will of God?

i believe he had free will just as all the angels have free will

How do we know the angels have free will? The fact that they became disobedient to God shows that they too, like us, have free will.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

i believe he had free will just as all the angels have free will

How do we know the angels have free will? The fact that they became disobedient to God shows that they too, like us, have free will.

Assuming it was disobedience...

 

[InformedIgnorance]

in the way you've stated it, it would be unreasonable. But i think you are looking at it from your perspective only. If Adam and Eve were just like us, then it would be a knee jerk reaction on Gods part... but they were not like us.

...

That is what made their actions so serious and that is why the death penalty was immediately imposed. They had no reason to disobey God, but they did so willfully which is no 'accident' or no simple 'mistake'... it is a deliberate and destructive way to behave.

Interesting, however you have also stated:

1Timothy 2:14

this tells us something about 'intent'. Eve ate because she was tricked so she would not have viewed her actions as defiance toward God because she didnt know she was defying him.

Which of the two are true? they cannot both be. Either Timothy is incorrect here (or being allegorical in some respect that would allow him to say black and mean white, therefore meaning that Eve was not deceived) or else your interpretation of Eve's intention to act against the will of God is flawed, in which case she at least (let us ignore adam for a moment) was not using 'incredible will power' nor 'perfect reasoning abilities' so how can it be claimed that her action was so horrendous that she should be sentenced to death, as should her descendants?

the consequences were not passed on by God...they were passed on by Adam because Adam could no longer produce perfect offspring.

As mentioned before, 'omnipotent' God is capable of interfering in the reproduction process in such a way as to remove those consequences, he chose NOT too, therefore it is his WILL that it occurs.

But on this point, Gods actions in allowing the man to procreate (even in this condition) was actually an act of tremendous love and fortitude on his part because he knew that life would not be good for Adams offspring. So why did he do it?

Because his mercy extended to the unborn offspring of Adam and Eve...Us. If Adam and Eve were not permitted to procreate, then we would never have been born. So you see, there is so much more to it and so much more to the complexity of Gods love and mercy then meets the eye.

You seem to be suggesting that our life is simple evidence of his generousity while at the same time denying that his refusal to remove the consequences of adam and eve's 'rebellion' (eating fruit) despite it being within his power, that does not matter nor does it indicate that he is less than benevolent. Is that so?




Unlike HH I do not claim it to be god's fault, but it is most certainly his WILL, given that he has the power to do something about it yet chooses not to. Given that the consequences are unpleasant, it is therefore god's will that we are subjected to unpleasantness that is not OUR fault, but potentially (POTENTIALLY) the 'fault' of our forbears. Hardly omni-benevolent.

 

[Pegg]

Interesting, however you have also stated:

Which of the two are true? they cannot both be. Either Timothy is incorrect here (or being allegorical in some respect that would allow him to say black and mean white, therefore meaning that Eve was not deceived) or else your interpretation of Eve's intention to act against the will of God is flawed, in which case she at least (let us ignore adam for a moment) was not using 'incredible will power' nor 'perfect reasoning abilities' so how can it be claimed that her action was so horrendous that she should be sentenced to death, as should her descendants?

having a perfect conscience does not mean someone cannot be deceived. What is telling is that the scriptures repeatedly stated that sin was the result of Adams sin.... never do we read that Eve passed sin onto her offspring. The scriptures always hightlight Adam as the sinner and never do they say he was deceived like Eve was. So this is a bit of a grey area and im certainly not saying that im correct in what im saying either...but its a hunch based on what the scriptures do state.

As mentioned before, 'omnipotent' God is capable of interfering in the reproduction process in such a way as to remove those consequences, he chose NOT too, therefore it is his WILL that it occurs.

Gods universal laws cannot be broken even by him. Even with all the power he possess he would never use his power in a hypocritical way. There is a right and a wrong way to fix a situation and he chose the right way.

You seem to be suggesting that our life is simple evidence of his generousity while at the same time denying that his refusal to remove the consequences of adam and eve's 'rebellion' (eating fruit) despite it being within his power, that does not matter nor does it indicate that he is less than benevolent. Is that so?

he is removing the consequences of Adams sin... but it is being done in the right legal way. He is a God of justice and his justice is absolute. Sure we may experience some discomfort for a while, but with all wounds, they need to get worse before they can get better.

Unlike HH I do not claim it to be god's fault, but it is most certainly his WILL, given that he has the power to do something about it yet chooses not to. Given that the consequences are unpleasant, it is therefore god's will that we are subjected to unpleasantness that is not OUR fault, but potentially (POTENTIALLY) the 'fault' of our forbears. Hardly omni-benevolent.

if your child needed a painful operation to repair some major damage, im sure you'd let them go thru the operation if it would cure them and enable them to live.

God has done the same thing with mankind so that the outcome will be a permanent solution to a deadly problem.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

having a perfect conscience does not mean someone cannot be deceived.

It was also 'perfect reasoning' which means someone cannot be deceived as that would extent to having a perfect ability to critically examine premises including those provided by the snake.

Unless of course you mean perfect in some other sense...

What is telling is that the scriptures repeatedly stated that sin was the result of Adams sin.... never do we read that Eve passed sin onto her offspring. The scriptures always hightlight Adam as the sinner and never do they say he was deceived like Eve was. So this is a bit of a grey area and im certainly not saying that im correct in what im saying either...but its a hunch based on what the scriptures do state.

Okay so now let us include adam's defiance as well as eve's gulibility, how would that mean their descendants should face the same death sentence, actually a WORSE sentence, since the bible states that every successive generation for the next few thousand years each had a more significantly reduced life span.

Gods universal laws cannot be broken even by him. Even with all the power he possess he would never use his power in a hypocritical way. There is a right and a wrong way to fix a situation and he chose the right way.

... You are now suggesting that God decided to create a universal law that would prevent him removing the completely and utterly undeserved repercussions to a child of their parents' failure?

That seems a rather unusual decision, one that either shows that God lacked the foresight to envisage a situation where someone might 'sin' and then have children, or else that he made the decision to create such a 'law' knowing full well that we would be punished for something we had not done. That would suggest that for the former that God is far from omniscient; or for the latter that God is far from omni-benevolent.

he is removing the consequences of Adams sin... but it is being done in the right legal way.

Legal? What does that mean? If god is omnipotent he can choose to do whatever he wants, even if he created these supposed 'universal laws' he is the one that formulated them and if we are to assume that he knows everything (or even simply that he knows what free will IS) then we can assume that when he created those laws - he knew people would exercise that free will and therefore be capable of sin and therefore a benevelonet god would not have created a law which would prevent him from removing the consequences to the child of a parent's sin.

He is a God of justice and his justice is absolute. Sure we may experience some discomfort for a while, but with all wounds, they need to get worse before they can get better.

I see, so his justice is absolute, but apparently not his compassion? That is an interesting interpretation. How then would you account for injustice in THIS world (no, not justice in the next world, THIS world)?

if your child needed a painful operation to repair some major damage, im sure you'd let them go thru the operation if it would cure them and enable them to live.

God has done the same thing with mankind so that the outcome will be a permanent solution to a deadly problem.

Well it would depend on the chances, potential complications and so forth, but probably yes - however were I an omnipotent being - I would not create some law to prevent myself from curing the child in the first place; so no painful operation would be necessary.

 

[Pegg]

It was also 'perfect reasoning' which means someone cannot be deceived as that would extent to having a perfect ability to critically examine premises including those provided by the snake.

Unless of course you mean perfect in some other sense...

perfect does not mean one cannot make a mistake. Perfection is relative to how ones free will is used and the decisions one makes. Having a flawless mind with the ability to reason on matters perfectly does not mean that one could not reason badly.

Perfection can be lost if one steps outside of the limits permitted by God. And that is what Eve did even though she was deceived into doing it.

Okay so now let us include adam's defiance as well as eve's gulibility, how would that mean their descendants should face the same death sentence, actually a WORSE sentence, since the bible states that every successive generation for the next few thousand years each had a more significantly reduced life span.

an imperfect man cannot produce perfect offspring.... the laws of cause and effect.

... You are now suggesting that God decided to create a universal law that would prevent him removing the completely and utterly undeserved repercussions to a child of their parents' failure?

he didnt create a law for that purpose... Gods laws are already set in stone. Disobedience was punishable by death and was stated to Adam from the time of his creation. And the laws of genetics (which we can clearly observe) is that traits are passed on from one generation to the next. So these were already in place before Adam sinned.

Legal? What does that mean? If god is omnipotent he can choose to do whatever he wants, even if he created these supposed 'universal laws' he is the one that formulated them and if we are to assume that he knows everything (or even simply that he knows what free will IS) then we can assume that when he created those laws - he knew people would exercise that free will and therefore be capable of sin and therefore a benevelonet god would not have created a law which would prevent him from removing the consequences to the child of a parent's sin.

these laws are intrinsic to his moral standards....they are as much a part of him as legs are a part of you. You would not destroy your own legs because you pair of shoes didnt fit and gave you blisters.
Likewise, God does not change his standards just because some have chosen not to live by them.

I see, so his justice is absolute, but apparently not his compassion? That is an interesting interpretation. How then would you account for injustice in THIS world (no, not justice in the next world, THIS world)?

would compassion prevent you from allowing your child to undergo a painful operation or something like chemotherapy?

Compassion does not always mean removing shielding someone from a bad situation. You surly would hate to see your child go through chemotherapy...but you know its for the their longterm benefit and so you would want them to go through it if their life depended on it.

Well it would depend on the chances, potential complications and so forth, but probably yes - however were I an omnipotent being - I would not create some law to prevent myself from curing the child in the first place; so no painful operation would be necessary.

God could have easily done the same thing by removing our ability to make our own decisions. We could have been created to live purely by instinct and just do the things that God programmed us to do in the same way the animals do.

but that wouldn't be much of a life then, would it?

 

[idav]

i believe he had free will just as all the angels have free will

How do we know the angels have free will? The fact that they became disobedient to God shows that they too, like us, have free will.

Cause they have the ability to fall but they did it with Lucifers influence similar to the influence we had in the garden. Seems like only lucifer and the serpent had free will. Why couldn't we fall and stay fallen without satans help?

 

[mr black]

God could have easily done the same thing by removing our ability to make our own decisions. We could have been created to live purely by instinct and just do the things that God programmed us to do in the same way the animals do.

but that wouldn't be much of a life then, would it?

But that is the aim you have in this life, in the next life you will only do what god programmes you to do. This is the purpose of your 80yrs here is to use your free will to become an automaton for eternity. No thanks.

 

[Pegg]

But that is the aim you have in this life, in the next life you will only do what god programmes you to do. This is the purpose of your 80yrs here is to use your free will to become an automaton for eternity. No thanks.

i dont think that is the case. The scriptures indicate that a person could still commit wrong even when they are living in Gods new world of righteousness. So free will still exists there.

This scripture speaks of life in Gods new world after he removes satan and the wicked and he himself is ruling mankind:
Isaiah 65;20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.

it shows that if someone sins, he will still die. The difference here is that death will be instant....that person will not be permitted to produce offspring after they have sinned like Adam and Eve did.

 

[Pegg]

Cause they have the ability to fall but they did it with Lucifers influence similar to the influence we had in the garden. Seems like only lucifer and the serpent had free will. Why couldn't we fall and stay fallen without satans help?

they could have rejected satans offer to eat the fruit. they could have chose differently...and who knows what might have happened if Adam did not eat the fruit when Eve offered it to him???

 

[InformedIgnorance]

perfect does not mean one cannot make a mistake. Perfection is relative to how ones free will is used and the decisions one makes. Having a flawless mind with the ability to reason on matters perfectly does not mean that one could not reason badly.

Perfection can be lost if one steps outside of the limits permitted by God. And that is what Eve did even though she was deceived into doing it.

How can you have the ability to reason on matters perfectly - yet reason badly? That does not logically follow...

I simply cannot grasp your interpretation of perfect I suppose... let us skip over that for now as it is not central to the point.

an imperfect man cannot produce perfect offspring.... the laws of cause and effect.

...

And the laws of genetics (which we can clearly observe) is that traits are passed on from one generation to the next. So these were already in place before Adam sinned.

However, as mentioned before, an omnipotent god could have chosen to remove that imperfection - any consequence of the 'sin' - however he chose NOT to.

he didnt create a law for that purpose... Gods laws are already set in stone.

...

these laws are intrinsic to his moral standards....they are as much a part of him as legs are a part of you. You would not destroy your own legs because you pair of shoes didnt fit and gave you blisters.
Likewise, God does not change his standards just because some have chosen not to live by them.

Upon what authority - or from what source - do you claim that gods laws are set in stone?

You are either suggesting that:

>> God must adhere to a set of rules that he did not create - which would outright states that god is not omnipotent and in fact is not the origin of all existence! Because there are laws that exist which he cannot overcome and which predate his creation of existence!

>> God defined these rules which are a part of himself, is omni-benevolent and yet unable to exercise that benevolence by removing the consequences of sin's one's ancestors committed because a part of Him (these 'universal laws') states that we must bear the consequences of sins we did not commit... he is omnipotent, yet unable to change himself, instead he framed those laws in such a way that he knew his creations could NEVER meet and would therefore be punished.

would compassion prevent you from allowing your child to undergo a painful operation or something like chemotherapy?

Compassion does not always mean removing shielding someone from a bad situation. You surly would hate to see your child go through chemotherapy...but you know its for the their longterm benefit and so you would want them to go through it if their life depended on it.

Potentially yes - however that would depend on me being UNABLE to treat the problem in a non painful way - an omnipotent entity IS ABLE to do so - once again, according to my understanding of your interpretation of the ramifications of the original sin, He Chose not to.

God could have easily done the same thing by removing our ability to make our own decisions. We could have been created to live purely by instinct and just do the things that God programmed us to do in the same way the animals do.

but that wouldn't be much of a life then, would it?

... Yet that is exactly what you say is God's intention once we achieve 'perfection'; and once again, an omnipotent god could have removed the 'consequences' such as 'death' without other negative outcomes such as making us puppets.