Didn't Satan Give Us Freewill?

[Heathen Hammer]

your reply indicates that you have not understood anything of my previous post. If you do not read the bible in terms of what the words meant to the writer, you will never understand it.

Our english language is not what the bible was written in so you have to read it as though you are reading it in greek or hebrew. The only way to do that is to know what the original meanings of the words are and how they apply.

Please don't comment on my ability to understand, given your propensity to have to redefine words to make a point.
I know the concept of translation; what I am telling you is the word used to translate from the Hebrew and Greek, into the English you understand, is the wrong word.

the original meanings of the words you showed, do not match the meaning of the word you wish to use in English.

 

[Pegg]

Please don't comment on my ability to understand, given your propensity to have to redefine words to make a point.
I know the concept of translation; what I am telling you is the word used to translate from the Hebrew and Greek, into the English you understand, is the wrong word.

the original meanings of the words you showed, do not match the meaning of the word you wish to use in English.

im not trying to use the english definition...whatever you think it is, im using the original word meaning. There are often no exact equivalents from greek to english because the greek is expressed in terms of ideas.

the idea to bring something to completeness means to perfect it in english. So when we say Adam & Eve lost perfection...it means they did not come to the completeness of their purpose.

So the english word 'perfect' in this sense is not the wrong word.

 

[mr black]

Nouns and verbs...............heard of them?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

'Finished' is more apt, actually. 'Perfect' is not contextually accurate.

Beginning in jr. high until the end of high school I learned Spanish. By the end I was thinking in it and speaking it fluently. I know by experience that all words do not translate into all languages. But I also know there are definitions for each word in each language, and these two concepts don't match. 'Perfection' even in the English explanation you use, does not mean 'to serve it's purpose'. 'To perfect' as a verb, is also not the same as when its used as an adjective.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

'Perfect' used in an English-speaker's description of Adam and Eve and God himself, are meant to convey a specific meaning in that language, especially based on the context in English versions of the myth. Based on the definitions we've been shown, and with those of the Hebrew and Greek, that English word simply doesn't apply.

 

[Pegg]

'Finished' is more apt, actually. 'Perfect' is not contextually accurate.

Beginning in jr. high until the end of high school I learned Spanish. By the end I was thinking in it and speaking it fluently. I know by experience that all words do not translate into all languages. But I also know there are definitions for each word in each language, and these two concepts don't match. 'Perfection' even in the English explanation you use, does not mean 'to serve it's purpose'. 'To perfect' as a verb, is also not the same as when its used as an adjective.

I would have to respectfully disagree on that. Perfect/perfection as the dictionary defines it includes bringing something to completion:

perfect [adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/#   Example Sentences Origin.shd_hdr1 { width: 100%; }.sep_top1 { position: relative; }.citesourceseperator { border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(228, 228, 228); margin-top: 15px; margin-bottom: 7px; }.sep_top1 table { margin-top: -2px; margin-bottom: -5px; }.results_content ul, .results_content ol { margin-bottom: -3px; }.LImg { background-image: url("http://sp.dictionary.com/en/i/dictionary/AddThis_v2/sprite_icons.png"); }.Lsentnce { display: block; margin-top: 14px; }.moredef { display: none; }.moreun { display: none; }.moresent { display: none; padding-left: 3px; }a.more, a.more:hover, a.less, a.less:hover { font: 10px arial; height: 18px; padding-left: 26px; color: rgb(64, 137, 224); cursor: pointer; display: block; padding-top: 5px; text-decoration: none; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 5px; } .luna-Ent a.slA:link, .luna-Ent .slANC > a, .lunatext .slD a, .lunatext .spl_unshd a { text-decoration: none; }.lunatext .slT b { color: rgb(64, 137, 224); }#mid3 { position: relative; top: 11px; }.slD a, .slD a:hover, .slD:visited { color: rgb(64, 64, 64); }.spl_unshd { padding-top: 5px; padding-bottom: 7px; }.spl_unshd_NC { padding-top: 5px; padding-bottom: 7px; } per·fect

  http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/#  /adj., n. ˈpɜr

fɪkt; v. pərˈfɛkt/ Show Spelled[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Show IPA
adjective 1.conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.

2.excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.

3.exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.

4.entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.

5.accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.



verb (used with object) 18. to bring to completion; finish.

19. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless.

20. to bring nearer to perfection; improve.

21. to make fully skilled.

22. Printing . to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).



Origin:
1250–1300; < Latin perfectus, past participle of perficere to finish, bring tocompletion ( per- per- + -fec-, combining form of facere to do1 + -tus past participle suffix); replacing Middle English parfit < Old French < Latin as above









there are several ways the word 'perfect' or 'perfection' applies to the 'Adam and Eve story. And it is the right word to use.

 

[mr black]

It must be like the word soon. It could mean millions of years.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

We all know however that definition 4/19 is the one you actually mean when you use the word. Attempting to shoehorn the verb's use into the adjective is dishonest.

Although if you mean 'God is finished' when describing him as perfect, I will not object.

 

[Pegg]

It must be like the word soon. It could mean millions of years.

quite right

day can also mean millions of years

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Basically a murder of words

 

[Heathen Hammer]

It must be like the word soon. It could mean millions of years.

She totally didn't get your intent :lol:

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Whatever Pegg, let's get back to the discussion, this is a fait acompli. Carry on.

 

[Pegg]

We all know however that definition 4 is the one you actually mean when you use the word. Attempting to shoehorn the verb's use into the adjective is dishonest.

when applied to Adam and Eve in their perfect condition, im actually using definition 3.

They were initially without flaw...they were exactly as Jehovah had created them...they were perfectly designed, had perfectly sound bodies and minds and lived in the perfect environment.

 

[mr black]

quite right

day can also mean millions of years

I've read the bible and based on my understanding of the words used, I have concluded that Batman can't beat Spiderman but the Hulk would destroy both. Either that or the sun is really just a painted picture in the night sky. Or the dinosaurs came from Arcturis in DC3's and brought bacteria with them. Or ...............................

 

[Pegg]

She totally didn't get your intent :lol:

what can i say? Im very naive

 

[Pegg]

I've read the bible and based on my understanding of the words used, I have concluded that Batman can't beat Spiderman but the Hulk would destroy both. Either that or the sun is really just a painted picture in the night sky. Or the dinosaurs came from Arcturis in DC3's and brought bacteria with them. Or ...............................

right. gooblygook then.

 

[mr black]

right. gooblygook then.

Absolutely

 

[Heathen Hammer]

when applied to Adam and Eve in their perfect condition, im actually using definition 3.

They were initially without flaw...they were exactly as Jehovah had created them...they were perfectly designed, had perfectly sound bodies and minds and lived in the perfect environment.

QED

 

[idav]

Yah, because your idea is an arbitrary redefinition of the word 'perfect'

How can such an abstract term as perfection, which is merely a conception or preference, be accurately conveyed? Whose version of perfection should we go by if your comparing to Gods perfection?

 

[idav]

they could have rejected satans offer to eat the fruit. they could have chose differently...and who knows what might have happened if Adam did not eat the fruit when Eve offered it to him???

Yet we had the option to choose differently on our own? Was the serpent required for us to fall, the reason I ask is because of the question of the OP, is lucifer the only real anomaly with free will influencing everyone, angels and humans, to fall?