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Didn't Satan Give Us Freewill?

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Were we to conform and our will becomes the same as god's will is it even ours any more? I would argue no.

Were we NOT to conform, He will punish and withhold; can it still be called 'free' will then? I would argue that is dubious at best - it is a gilded collar or perhaps a choker chain which may not be noticeable when people do want He wants, yet He yanks it when people choose otherwise. Hardly the most benevolent gift.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Were we to conform and our will becomes the same as god's will is it even ours any more? I would argue no.

Were we NOT to conform, He will punish and withhold; can it still be called 'free' will then? I would argue that is dubious at best - it is a gilded collar or perhaps a choker chain which may not be noticeable when people do want He wants, yet He yanks it when people choose otherwise. Hardly the most benevolent gift.

We must understand that death is not a punishment from God....it is a 'consequence' of leaving him.

We cannot live without air. so while you have the freedom to choose to go underwater, you know that you do not have the freedom from the consequence of remaining underwater. you will die because you need air to live.

Well we need God to live. Adam did not come to life until God breathed into him the 'spirit' (ruach)
When Adam rejected God, Gods spirit could no longer remain in him and thus he eventually returned to the state of being dead.
 

Daviso452

Boy Genius
We must understand that death is not a punishment from God....it is a 'consequence' of leaving him.

We cannot live without air. so while you have the freedom to choose to go underwater, you know that you do not have the freedom from the consequence of remaining underwater. you will die because you need air to live.

Well we need God to live. Adam did not come to life until God breathed into him the 'spirit' (ruach)
When Adam rejected God, Gods spirit could no longer remain in him and thus he eventually returned to the state of being dead.

What about all the people who are not with God? Like me?

And Adam did not reject God. Adam had no sense of consequence, since he had never been punished. God did this on purpose in order to teach humanity to listen to him. But the only humans were Adam and Eve... perhaps God was expecting our kind to eventually appear.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
What about all the people who are not with God? Like me?

we are all in the same boat, believers and non believers alike. We are all dying because we all fall short of Gods perfect standards and laws. And this puts each one of us out of harmony with God and into a state of dying.

And Adam did not reject God. Adam had no sense of consequence, since he had never been punished. God did this on purpose in order to teach humanity to listen to him. But the only humans were Adam and Eve... perhaps God was expecting our kind to eventually appear.

Gods word states that Adam was not deceived therefore he knew what he was doing when he disobeyed. We can speculate all we like, but the only ones who really knows are the ones who were there. Adam, Eve, God, Satan and the rest of the spirits in heaven.
 

Daviso452

Boy Genius
we are all in the same boat, believers and non believers alike. We are all dying because we all fall short of Gods perfect standards and laws. And this puts each one of us out of harmony with God and into a state of dying.

What about all the pure christian people that die at young ages? Is disease a sign of people falling from god? Or is it just aging?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
What about all the pure christian people that die at young ages? Is disease a sign of people falling from god? Or is it just aging?
none of us are born pure...we come from tainted parents, we inherit their traits.
Psalm 51:5 Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me


Disease is a sign of the imperfection in our immune systems, the polluted environment and the foods we eat. All of this is an 'inadvertent' consequence of sin.

Aging is the slow process of dying. from the moment we are born we begin to die. That is the direct consequence of sin.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Maybe God did give us free will but satan certianly gave this freedom meaning and gave us the knowledge yo use it
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
We must understand that death is not a punishment from God....it is a 'consequence' of leaving him.
In which case it is withholding, much like for example 'neglect' in terms of domestic abuse. But in any case, hell is certainly a punishment.

We cannot live without air. so while you have the freedom to choose to go underwater, you know that you do not have the freedom from the consequence of remaining underwater. you will die because you need air to live.
Except that water does not have intent, it is not a omnipotent omniscient entity, choosing to prevent air coming to those underneath the water. Nor in that case is air an omnipotent, omniscient entity capable of having removed our dependence on breathing air in the first place. If an omnipotent god chose, we could breath underwater - he chose not to do so.

Well we need God to live. Adam did not come to life until God breathed into him the 'spirit' (ruach)
Yet there is nothing to suggest that such a life was dependant on Adam's continued subservience and capitulation to god's will.

When Adam rejected God, Gods spirit could no longer remain in him and thus he eventually returned to the state of being dead.
Firstly Adam chose to disobey God one time, not to reject God - it was God who chose to reject Adam. Moreover as I mentioned before, I strongly disagree with you assuming that we have the ability to define the limits of an omnipotent entity where that limitation is not expressly described in the holy text - there is nothing to say that if someone rejects 'God's spirit' is incapable of staying, nor that the spirit needs to stay once it has brought something to life; certainly, I have rejected your Abrahamic God and most people would contend that I am still alive.




But none of that changes that God desires us to subjugate our free will - withholds from those who exercise their free will in a way He does not like, and punishes disobedience, not just that an eternity of torment awaits but even to the point of ensuring that the 'consequences' of one person's disobedience against Him are borne by the descendants (such that no one is born pure)... you paint a picture of a less than benevolent God, Pegg.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yet there is nothing to suggest that such a life was dependant on Adam's continued subservience and capitulation to god's will.

The man knew that his life was dependent on obedience to the command/law of God
Genesis 2:16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Eve also knew the command and the consequences:
Genesis 1:1'... “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’”

Firstly Adam chose to disobey God one time, not to reject God

disobedience to Gods law was a rejection of Gods law and thus a rejection of God himself because God was the lawmaker, the decision maker, the Creator, the sovereign ruler.
Adam disobeyed thus Adam rejected Gods rulership and Gods right to rule.


I strongly disagree with you assuming that we have the ability to define the limits of an omnipotent entity where that limitation is not expressly described in the holy text - there is nothing to say that if someone rejects 'God's spirit' is incapable of staying, nor that the spirit needs to stay once it has brought something to life; certainly, I have rejected your Abrahamic God and most people would contend that I am still alive.But none of that changes that God desires us to subjugate our free will - withholds from those who exercise their free will in a way He does not like, and punishes disobedience, not just that an eternity of torment awaits but even to the point of ensuring that the 'consequences' of one person's disobedience against Him are borne by the descendants (such that no one is born pure)... you paint a picture of a less than benevolent God, Pegg.

so many good points that deserve a full explanation in this paragraph, but i dont have time right now to answer....

i will come back to it though. :)
 

Daviso452

Boy Genius
none of us are born pure...we come from tainted parents, we inherit their traits.
Psalm 51:5 Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me


Disease is a sign of the imperfection in our immune systems, the polluted environment and the foods we eat. All of this is an 'inadvertent' consequence of sin.

Aging is the slow process of dying. from the moment we are born we begin to die. That is the direct consequence of sin.

Damn girl, you will not see reality without God. Have you ever considered it? Believe me when I say it makes just as much sense as your own, possibly even more.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Damn girl, you will not see reality without God. Have you ever considered it? Believe me when I say it makes just as much sense as your own, possibly even more.

there is no reality without God.

This life is about coming to the realization that there is no life at all without God.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
This life is about coming to the realization that there is no life at all without God.


If thats so, I guess I am wasting my time dedicating my life to medical profession :rolleyes: Who would've thought. Realizing and living life knowing God is the real reason to life, as compared to something selfless as trying to help people.
 

Daviso452

Boy Genius
there is no reality without God.

This life is about coming to the realization that there is no life at all without God.

So by assuming god exists, you believe there is no reality without god, and thus god exists. That is a circular argument.

Let me say that again: You assume god exists. If God exists, then reality cannot be without him. Since reality is real, god exists. If god exists, then reality cannot be without him. Since reality is real, god exists. If god exists, then reality cannot be without him. Since reality is real, god exists.

See the circular part of it?


p.s. because of how small my text box is, these lines lined up perfectly with each other. It was pretty cool to see.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Firstly I would point out that this thread obviously seems to rest on the premise that God and Satan exist, so it is probably best to post in here holding that premise to be true, though many might contend that premise, I do not believe that this is the appropriate thread for it; UNLESS you are making the statement that free will came from some other source (such as being a nautral characteristic of any rational being)

The man knew that his life was dependent on obedience to the command/law of God Genesis 2:16
Yet Adam and Eve did not die on that day... instead, god ensures we ALL will eventually die as a consequence of Adam and Eve's sin? That's pretty unbalanced, lying about the outcome and then ensuring that people who had nothing to do with it are punished (or 'face the consequences').

Eve also knew the command and the consequences: Genesis 1:1

disobedience to Gods law was a rejection of Gods law and thus a rejection of God himself because God was the lawmaker, the decision maker, the Creator, the sovereign ruler.
Adam disobeyed thus Adam rejected Gods rulership and Gods right to rule.
That does not logically follow, one instance of disobedience is not the same as rejecting the legitimacy or authority of God, to suggest that is to suggest that God gave an incredibly exaggerated knee jerk reaction - viewing adam and eve's one use of free will against his own will to be an act of rebellion worthy of 'death' (as you put it) and then watched over humanity to ensure that even their descendants were punished (faced the consequences of the 'sin') and it took thousands and thousands of years for him to decide to forgive humanity because two people used their free will (which you claim He gave them) to decide to eat a peice of fruit - that is completely and utterly unreasonable by ANY measure.

Now look, I am not an anti-theist by any measure, however I would suggest to you that you may wish to examine your interpretation of the 'consequences' of the original sin, because the way that you have described it suggests that God punishes people completely disproportionately to the 'sin' (of choosing to use their free will in a way that does not match his own, perfect will), even to the point of punishing people who had nothing to do with it. If this is the sort of God you believe in that is fine, however I would suggest that most of the interpretations of the Abrahamic god that I have encountered do not paint such a picture - that of a petty tyrant.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yet Adam and Eve did not die on that day... instead, god ensures we ALL will eventually die as a consequence of Adam and Eve's sin? That's pretty unbalanced, lying about the outcome and then ensuring that people who had nothing to do with it are punished (or 'face the consequences').

they actually did die on the same day. They died spiritually because they were excommunicated from God....and they began to die physically. Adam was around 900 years old when he eventually died completely, and according to scripture, 1 day in Gods eyes is 1000 years... So, from Gods perspective, Adam died on the same Day.

That does not logically follow, one instance of disobedience is not the same as rejecting the legitimacy or authority of God, to suggest that is to suggest that God gave an incredibly exaggerated knee jerk reaction - viewing adam and eve's one use of free will against his own will to be an act of rebellion worthy of 'death' (as you put it) and then watched over humanity to ensure that even their descendants were punished (faced the consequences of the 'sin') and it took thousands and thousands of years for him to decide to forgive humanity because two people used their free will (which you claim He gave them) to decide to eat a peice of fruit - that is completely and utterly unreasonable by ANY measure.
in the way you've stated it, it would be unreasonable. But i think you are looking at it from your perspective only. If Adam and Eve were just like us, then it would be a knee jerk reaction on Gods part... but they were not like us.

They had perfect reasoning abilities, they had evidence of Gods involvement in their life. The man could talk with God, so there was absolutely no doubt in his mind that his creator was real. God communed with the man and woman in the garden so they had absolutely no reason to distrust him.

Not only that, but their mind was created in Gods image....so their consciences were perfectly in harmony with Gods conscience. For them to commit a wrong act would have taken incredible will power because they were not prone to doing wrong like we are. They were prone to doing good which means to disobey God would have really been going against the grain for them.

That is what made their actions so serious and that is why the death penalty was immediately imposed. They had no reason to disobey God, but they did so willfully which is no 'accident' or no simple 'mistake'... it is a deliberate and destructive way to behave.

Now look, I am not an anti-theist by any measure, however I would suggest to you that you may wish to examine your interpretation of the 'consequences' of the original sin, because the way that you have described it suggests that God punishes people completely disproportionately to the 'sin' (of choosing to use their free will in a way that does not match his own, perfect will), even to the point of punishing people who had nothing to do with it. If this is the sort of God you believe in that is fine, however I would suggest that most of the interpretations of the Abrahamic god that I have encountered do not paint such a picture - that of a petty tyrant.

the consequences were not passed on by God...they were passed on by Adam because Adam could no longer produce perfect offspring.

But on this point, Gods actions in allowing the man to procreate (even in this condition) was actually an act of tremendous love and fortitude on his part because he knew that life would not be good for Adams offspring. So why did he do it?

Because his mercy extended to the unborn offspring of Adam and Eve...Us. If Adam and Eve were not permitted to procreate, then we would never have been born. So you see, there is so much more to it and so much more to the complexity of Gods love and mercy then meets the eye.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
the consequences were not passed on by God...they were passed on by Adam because Adam could no longer produce perfect offspring.
I realize this is an excuse you keep needing to make but Adam possessed no ability nor intent to do so. It was ONLY GOD who could have passed this on.

ITS GOD'S FAULT.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I realize this is an excuse you keep needing to make but Adam possessed no ability nor intent to do so. It was ONLY GOD who could have passed this on.

ITS GOD'S FAULT.

so if you pass an inheritable defect or disease onto your offspring, is that also Gods fault?
 
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