Died For Our Sins ?

[Heneni]

Thief here....

The forgiveness of sin is not well addressed here.
There are incidents reported in the gospels wherein relief was dealt....
and little if nothing was said about the offense...or the person against whom the offense was dealt.

The parable of the prodigal son might help here.
Surely you recall the objection made as a feast was prepared to celebrate the return of a wayward son?
Doing good things is important...of course.
But will you celebrate when someone who offended you is welcomed with open arms...and a party?

What if someone who has offended you greatly...name the most serious action you dare to....is then "forgiven".... and treated equal to you?

At the same time, warning has been dealt....
There are many who do good things...and the Lord knows them not.

You people know your rhetoric well enough.
But you will be forgiven as you forgave others.
The line drawn....is the line you draw.

Well this is an interesting point thief. There are two scriptures in the bible that come to mind.

First the scripture (before jesus was crucified that says) Forgive and you shall be forgiven

Then after the resurrection of jesus there is a scripture that says. If you forgive people they are forgiven.

See the difference. The first one required the disciples to forgive in order to be forgiven, the next scripture says, others are forgiven if YOU forgive them...

Here are the scriptures for your consideration:

Matthew 6:14
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

That was before jesus died. And after jesus died:

John 20:21
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

See the difference?

Heneni

 

[darkendless]

I agree.

Religion isn't "based on superstition." it's based in a world view in which Deity is the Source.

In fact, science was, for many years, itself, based upon such a world view. That's why science produced the flat earth theory.

Superstition: "Any belief or attitude that is inconsistent with the known laws of science or with what is generally considered in the particular society as true and rational.

What about the world view I mentioned is inconsistent with the known laws of science, or with what is generally considered by our society as true and rational?

So because there are like a billion people who can rationalize their superstitions aka Christianity, which is inconsistent with science, it is a belief?

Religion is a superstition, it cannot be rationalized by science and its only rationall comes from within its own congregation. It is no different from believing aliens exist.

 

[Thief]

Thief here....hey Heneni....well aware?...yes of course.

I like your quotes...thank you.

I was more to the recoil that will be there...when such things happen.
Imagine that you are brother to the prodigal son.
He comes home in poor condition...all his own fault...and dear Father wants to throw a party.
And when questioned over the frown on your face....you are admonished.

I was also leaning toward the "Lord's Prayer"
Unlike a parable...which is open to interpretation....the prayer has the character of an oath.

It begins...Our Father.....
Who's father? My father? Your father? Siblings are we?
In this recital....you are declaring yourself a child of the Father.
The angels hear you when such things are spoken.
So too the devil.
If you succeed in your pledge....all points held...fine...good....
But if you fail, the angels before you..... will turn and move on.
And that other angel behind you will laugh.

Forgive me...as I forgive others.
I've said it so many times.
A plea of ignorance will not be allowed.

 

[Heneni]

Thief here....hey Heneni....well aware?...yes of course.

I like your quotes...thank you.

I was more to the recoil that will be there...when such things happen.
Imagine that you are brother to the prodigal son.
He comes home in poor condition...all his own fault...and dear Father wants to throw a party.
And when questioned over the frown on your face....you are admonished.

I was also leaning toward the "Lord's Prayer"
Unlike a parable...which is open to interpretation....the prayer has the character of an oath.

It begins...Our Father.....
Who's father? My father? Your father? Siblings are we?
In this recital....you are declaring yourself a child of the Father.
The angels hear you when such things are spoken.
So too the devil.
If you succeed in your pledge....all points held...fine...good....
But if you fail, the angels before.... you will turn and move on.
And that other angel behind you will laugh.

Forgive me...as I forgive others.
I've said it so many times.
A plea of ignorance will not be allowed.

I hear you thief!

Consider this:

Before jesus was crucified the only father the disciples had was the one in heaven. The father in heaven.Therefore jesus told them, pray like this: Our father which art in heaven.

But the nature of jesus's crucifixtion placed those disciples in christ in order to be given new birth, so that after the resurrection, jesus would be the father of the spiritually reborn people. That is why he said that if you have seen me you have seen the father.

This is also interesting because...you will find that any other abrahamic religion that believes in god, like the jews and the muslims, do not believe in jesus. However, because you have to believe in jesus to have spiritual new birth, they have not recieved new birth (a remnant has).

So...that makes it all tricky. That would even have been ok in a way, if there was another way to the father, without going through jesus. I mean can those who were not spiritually reborn in christ (yet of the abrahamic faith), still have access to the father like they had all those thousands of years before. And i would say, maybe! Maybe have access as in pray to him, but to return to the father in spiritual form...no. So the only way into the actual presence of the father, is by going in there as one being born of christ. Im talking of actually going to heaven here to be in the presence of the father. However, god will create a new heaven and a new earth....ya never know where the muslims and the jews will be. Could it be that the muslims and the jews will be on earth, and those who were given rebirth in christ be in heaven???? many questions dont have all the answers, but i know god is in control.

Heneni

 

[Thief]

Thief here.....
I suppose it's time for a confession.

I'm not a man of faith. I have no faith.

I am not of faith, as faith requires no evidence...no proof.
But I believe in God. I have cause and reason to do so.
Therefore, I am not of faith.

Concerning forgiveness....It is not handed out like candy.
There is more to it than simply wanting to go to heaven.

See yourself as the doorkeep.....at your Father's tent.
Do you really forgive all that approach?
Do you really think everyone is welcome?

Forgiveness comes of judgment...yours.
If you judge by sight...you will be judged on sight.
If you judge by rumor... you will be judged by hearsay.
And if you judge at all...make certain your own mind and heart first.

I am a rogue theologian.

 

[Heneni]

Thief here.....
I suppose it's time for a confession.

I'm not a man of faith. I have no faith.

I am not of faith, as faith requires no evidence...no proof.
But I believe in God. I have cause and reason to do so.
Therefore, I am not of faith.

Concerning forgiveness....It is not handed out like candy.
There is more to it than simply wanting to go to heaven.

See yourself as the doorkeep.....at your Father's tent.
Do you really forgive all that approach?
Do you really think everyone is welcome?

Forgiveness comes of judgment...yours.
If you judge by sight...you will be judged on sight.
If you judge by rumor... you will be judged by hearsay.
And if you judge at all...make certain your own mind and heart first.

I am a rogue theologian.

How long were you keeping that a secret from us Rogue theologian.... ok, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Thief]

Thief here....
Okay...you got me...I guess I'm rather obvious.
Some thief I am!

 

[Heneni]

Thief here....
Okay...you got me...I guess I'm rather obvious.
Some thief I am!

Its the glow in the dark mask.....its giving away your position

 

[Thief]

Thief here...skipping back to salvation...

Picture yourself as a thief...dying on a cross.
The man next to you...also dying...is labeled "king of the Jews".
You don't say much...time is running out.
All you ask is to be remembered, and you are told you will enter the kingdom this very same hour.

There's no talk of forgiveness. No time to repent. No restitution can be made.
But you're going...you have been told you will.

Do you see how this can be?

And allow me to point out...He did not die for our sins.
He died because of them.
We are not saved by His blood.
We are saved by His parables.

 

[Mr Cheese]

And again....the lake of fire is real and some are going there.

the lake of fire of course before christians redefined and put their own stamp on it, as a place of eternal torment , is actually a place of cleansing...

Once again though we are sticking to exotericism so I wont expand upon this further unless asked

 

[Heneni]

the lake of fire of course before christians redefined and put their own stamp on it, as a place of eternal torment , is actually a place of cleansing...

Once again though we are sticking to exotericism so I wont expand upon this further unless asked

A place of cleansing.. I'm all ears. Now if you can provide scripture that would settle the matter immediately!:yes:

 

[Mr Cheese]

A place of cleansing.. I'm all ears. Now if you can provide scripture that would settle the matter immediately!:yes:

some things exist beyond scripture...

I have no idea of the scripture, just the tradition, that predates and exists within christianity....

Much like satan, christianity (exoteric) has redefined it....

Beyond your scope, sorry....

 

[Heneni]

some things exist beyond scripture...

I have no idea of the scripture, just the tradition, that predates and exists within christianity....

Much like satan, christianity (exoteric) has redefined it....

Beyond your scope, sorry....

Ahh...well im dissapointed.

If there was any scripture in the bible to indicate that the lake of fire is a place of purification, i would believe it. But..... alas there is not.

What i do believe the lake of fire is, is not a person tormented by an angry god, its the torment arrising from their inability to do evil.

Jesus will abolish all power and authority and so...no power, no way to do evil! That will be torture no doubt.

Now i have been thinking about the possibility of someone being saved out of the lake of fire, only because i know of one scripture that would vaguely hint at that, it talks about some who wont be hurt by the second death. (lake of fire) Indicating that they will experience it but wont be 'hurt'. Does not mean they will get out of it either. But not being hurt by it, means no if little torment for them there.... im still thinking about it. But there is just no way to imagine for a second, the lake isnt real and that its not going to happen. The bible has not thus far predicted things to happen that have not happened and therefore will happen.

I simply believe that eternal life, means life outside of time, and that eternal death means death outside of time. Right now life is linked to time, and time ages us, makes us weak, our time could be up...etc. But in the afterlife there is no time, so no aging, and no time to wind down. So eternal in my mind does not mean...forever as in the sense of time that does not stop. There is no time in heaven.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Thief here...skipping back to salvation...

Picture yourself as a thief...dying on a cross.
The man next to you...also dying...is labeled "king of the Jews".
You don't say much...time is running out.
All you ask is to be remembered, and you are told you will enter the kingdom this very same hour.

There's no talk of forgiveness. No time to repent. No restitution can be made.
But you're going...you have been told you will.

Do you see how this can be?

And allow me to point out...He did not die for our sins.
He died because of them.
We are not saved by His blood.
We are saved by His parables.

If you are saying we are saved by faith and grace...yes.

Just a little something about them parables. I for one was a stickler for the parables. I would ponder about the mesages hidden inside of them.

But, i dont anymore. The mystery of the jews are locked up in the parables, and the mystery of the gentiles were given to us by paul. So, where i am at, the parables is the mystery of the jews, and the gospel that paul received is the mystery of salation to the gentiles.

Heneni

 

[sojourner]

If you are saying we are saved by faith and grace...yes.

Just a little something about them parables. I for one was a stickler for the parables. I would ponder about the mesages hidden inside of them.

But, i dont anymore. The mystery of the jews are locked up in the parables, and the mystery of the gentiles were given to us by paul. So, where i am at, the parables is the mystery of the jews, and the gospel that paul received is the mystery of salation to the gentiles.

Heneni

Take another look.

 

[sojourner]

I simply believe that eternal life, means life outside of time, and that eternal death means death outside of time.

If God is a God of life (and that's Biblical), and if Jesus has turned aside the death that we created, how can there truly be any more death?

 

[Heneni]

If God is a God of life (and that's Biblical), and if Jesus has turned aside the death that we created, how can there truly be any more death?

Where do you get the notion from that we created death? If we created it we can uncreate it.

And how is death a creation?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Ahh...well im dissapointed.

If there was any scripture in the bible to indicate that the lake of fire is a place of purification, i would believe it. But..... alas there is not.


Heneni

In your understanding, correct.

What anyone ahs failed to mention is of course, the questions produced directly and indirectly by this thread have been debated by Christianity for centuries. Expecting there to be a definative answer is rather difficult. Different groups have different ideas depending on tradition, versions of the bible and how things are translated and interpretted.

A simple web search will reveal that some do indeed consider the lake of fire to be a place of cleansing not eternal punishment,....but that is besides the point.

What IS the point, is that the questions posed here have run amuck for centuries...we could all sit around for a few more centuries, and still not get a definative answer.....

That is why there is protestantism....

 

[Heneni]

In your understanding, correct.

What anyone ahs failed to mention is of course, the questions produced directly and indirectly by this thread have been debated by Christianity for centuries. Expecting there to be a definative answer is rather difficult. Different groups have different ideas depending on tradition, versions of the bible and how things are translated and interpretted.

A simple web search will reveal that some do indeed consider the lake of fire to be a place of cleansing not eternal punishment,....but that is besides the point.

What IS the point, is that the questions posed here have run amuck for centuries...we could all sit around for a few more centuries, and still not get a definative answer.....

That is why there is protestantism....

I see your point but i cant really agree fully. In the time of paul for example, im sure that many of the questions the folk had was answered by paul and i think they rather had more answers than less. During the years, the only reason these questions have become problems is because there are too many folk who have a different opinion to paul and jesus and have the means to voice them globally. Knowledge of jesus certainly is on the increase but what is not increasing in the same measure is the understanding of it.

The controlling card of catholics is that they believe that the pope is the only one who can correctly interpret the doctrine and therefore they have cut out the HS in that process all together! And really any group that claims they have the only truth without acknowledging the HS, must be lying, because the only group that can claim to have the only truth are the ones who receive their wisdom from the HS. And they can be anywhere really they dont have to be in the catholic church. And we all get it wrong some times, but then we cant all get it wrong all the time if we are led by the HS. The important thing to remember when you are trying to find the truth, is to first develop intuition about the indentity of the truth giver. The HS can speak through a donkey. But if you dont recognise by spiritual intuition that the donkey is speaking the truth, you will probably try to shoot it.

The great thing about chirstians (Born again chirstians) is this. One christian can quickly spot another. Deep calls to deep. Spirits of the same kind, recognise each other, and can identify other spirits that are not of the same kind. Help when you are trying to sort out truth from fiction as well.

Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

I see your point but i cant really agree fully. In the time of paul for example, im sure that many of the questions the folk had was answered by paul and i think they rather had more answers than less. During the years, the only reason these questions have become problems is because there are too many folk who have a different opinion to paul and jesus and have the means to voice them globally. Knowledge of jesus certainly is on the increase but what is not increasing in the same measure is the understanding of it.

The controlling card of catholics is that they believe that the pope is the only one who can correctly interpret the doctrine and therefore they have cut out the HS in that process all together! And really any group that claims they have the only truth without acknowledging the HS, must be lying, because the only group that can claim to have the only truth are the ones who receive their wisdom from the HS. And they can be anywhere really they dont have to be in the catholic church. And we all get it wrong some times, but then we cant all get it wrong all the time if we are led by the HS. The important thing to remember when you are trying to find the truth, is to first develop intuition about the indentity of the truth giver. The HS can speak through a donkey. But if you dont recognise by spiritual intuition that the donkey is speaking the truth, you will probably try to shoot it.

The great thing about chirstians (Born again chirstians) is this. One christian can quickly spot another. Deep calls to deep. Spirits of the same kind, recognise each other, and can identify other spirits that are not of the same kind. Help when you are trying to sort out truth from fiction as well.

Heneni

Not really, the views of Jesus and Paul have been:

interpretted differently
Translated differently

The pope within catholicsm is not the only interpretter of scripture....
There have and are appointed people of wisdom that also are "allowed" or more correctly, officially "allowed"....far from just the pope. There have been many great people...

There is actually more than one pope, the orthodox churches all have their own also....

Cutting out the holy spirit....:sarcastic I'll say no more on this ridiculous notion, considering protestanism has removed transubstantiation...making it arguably like tennis without balls....