Died For Our Sins ?

[sojourner]

Salvation does not come by forgiveness, salvation comes by faith in christ through grace.

Or does it come by the faith of Christ? That Romans passage could be translated either way.
If it comes by the faith of Christ, then Christ's faith is sufficient for all.

 

[sojourner]

Even if god did forgive the whole world for their sins, they still have to believe in jesus to be saved.

That places a condition on love, which, as we should know, is unconditional.

 

[Heneni]

Or does it come by the faith of Christ? That Romans passage could be translated either way.
If it comes by the faith of Christ, then Christ's faith is sufficient for all.

1 John 5:4
4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

Jude 1:3
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.

 

[Heneni]

Heneni,

I'm trying to understand your position better. It sounds almost as if you are saying that when Christ died on the cross he did not actually secure the salvation of anyone, but rather provided an opportunity for man to exercise faith and then be saved. Sorry if I've got you all mixed up. Let me know...

I will attempt to explain my undertanding of predestination (only roughly) and what it means to be born again.

I think that to understand predestination, we have to understand election.

Whoever god choses he gives birth to.

God chose a nation for himself, and then birthed that nation. He seperated a nation out from the other nations, by birthing them first.

In the same way god chose us in christ, and to seperate us from others he birthed us in christ jesus. Gave us new birth.

New birth means there was an old birth, and another father. When the father of mankind, adam, was created, we were all created IN adam, yet only born later. God created all of mankind when he created adam, we only proceeded out from adam, in the form of birth later. In the same way, if there was going to be a new father, (last adam) we had to be recreated IN him, which happened when we were placed IN christ on the cross in order to be born later as a spiritually alive man.

So IN the first adam, we all died, because we were all in the first adam that died spiritually and therefore all born from his seed would also be spiritually born dead. Then we were adopted and placed IN christ, (our new father) so that we too may be born onto this earth, but spiritually alive. Jesus the bible calls the first born from the dead, and we are born in turn onto this earth. That is what born again means.

Jesus said to his disciples, if you have seen me you have seen the father. Their new father. Jesus is also referred to as the everlasting father in revelation for the same reason. That is why the bible says we are adopted. Adopted from adam.

The bible says that the natural man comes first and then the spiritual. The natural man was created in adam, the spiritual man was created in Jesus. The natural man had to be born onto the earth, and the spiritual man too must do the same.

Do not marvel jesus said...you have to be born AGAIN.

If there are any questions i'd be happy to try and answer as best i can.
Do you believe that forgiveness of sin automatically results in salvation? I believe that one cannot be saved unless you are forgiven, but also you cannot be saved if you dont believe in the one that has forgiven you

What say you?

 

[ayani]

sojourner ~

personal faith in Jesus *is* neccesary.

being alive and free in Jesus to love God woith all one's heart and soul and might and love one's neighbor as one'es self if very, very different from living for one's own thoughts, views, person, and self.

life is Christ is something unique, and something between the individual, and God's Son. a person for whom Jesus is any host of things but not their personal Lord, Saviour, Shepherd, and Rock does not have what a Christian has in Christ.

there has to be a relationship between the person, and Christ. Master, disciple. "come, follow me". if there's no relationship based on intitial faith and God's grace coming in to make new and equip the believer for discipleship, then there's no newness in Christ.

 

[Heneni]

"'Turn from your fierce wrath; change your mind and do not bring disaster on your people.' And the LORD changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people." Ex. 32:12b,14

"For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his faithfulness endures from age to age." Ps. 100:4

Even good earthly parents do not punish their children for ever. How much more merciful is our heavenly Father -- who is perfectly good? God will not punish for ever, either.

The word MERCY does not appear in the book of revelations even ONCE. Does that not make you wonder?

And as far as god having mercy on folk, if they will turn. The bible in revelations shows that they will not.

Rev 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him


Revelations 16:10
Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

 

[sojourner]

sojourner ~

personal faith in Jesus *is* neccesary.

being alive and free in Jesus to love God woith all one's heart and soul and might and love one's neighbor as one'es self if very, very different from living for one's own thoughts, views, person, and self.

life is Christ is something unique, and something between the individual, and God's Son. a person for whom Jesus is any host of things but not their personal Lord, Saviour, Shepherd, and Rock does not have what a Christian has in Christ.

there has to be a relationship between the person, and Christ. Master, disciple. "come, follow me". if there's no relationship based on intitial faith and God's grace coming in to make new and equip the believer for discipleship, then there's no newness in Christ.

Who does one love? One's neighbor. Community. Relationship. To whom are we to minister? To ourselves? Or to the hungry, the thirsty, the outcast? Community. Relationship. The relationship is communal -- not individual. Where do we see Jesus? In the spaces between us. Where two or three are gathered... not one.

Yes, there is a sense of the individual, as the individuals make up the Body, just as cells make up our own bodies. But it is the whole Body -- not the individual cells -- that is born again. Remember, baptism is a communal -- not an individual thing. In fact, sacraments are always communal in nature -- as is worship.

Our responsibility is to the community -- not to ourselves.

 

[Heneni]

The bible talks about two things.

Being IN christ
And christ IN us

To be IN christ you had to be put in him on the cross, so that his life could permiate you.

Its like putting a biscuit into syrup. We like biscuits were placed in christ, and then as time goes on we are saturated by christ so that he fills all IN him with himself.

That is what conforming into the image of chirst means.

Not the best of examples,but none the less, one i understand.

 

[ayani]

Sojourner ~

obviously the Christian has the responsibility to others. taking up our cross and following Him *means* denying self for others, and for loving and serving our Creator.

but what i'm saying is that spiritually, intrinsically, one's outlook on life in and because of Christ is something remarkable, and not something which every person has. being alive in Christ means that, at some point, He changed you. He set you free, raised you from spiritual death, and set you on the stright and narrow path of life, and discipleship.

the fruits of that discipleship do need to be exactly what Christ indicated- compassion, mercy, selflessness, giving, forgiveness, humility, and loving the least of these. but life in Christ is between the Christian, and Christ Jesus. and it's a life and a relationship with allows one to love, serve, minister to, and reach out to others in a new and Godly way.

 

[Michael Turner]

That was a very good post Heneni, thank you.

I don't believe that forgiveness can be separated from salvation. But forgiveness is for those in Christ alone.

This thread originally started with a question about "Christ dying for our sins". I felt the need to distinguish exactly who Christ forgave and died for. I don't think the Bible teaches that he forgave everyone or died for everyone. Quite the contrary, I believe Christ came to save the elect of God.

 

[ayani]

Michael ~

excellent point. Jesus' death on the cross only means something if you believe in and understand it's great meaning for you personally. and the Bible is also clear that we are called to Jesus by the Father, and chosen out of the world to follow Him by the Lord Himself. not everyone is chosen, but those who are have the responsibility not just to believe in but to actively and thankfully live for the Saviour. and if you love and know Him, you will care for those around you, with His love.

 

[sojourner]

The word MERCY does not appear in the book of revelations even ONCE. Does that not make you wonder?

No. But the concept appears:
"They will hunger no more, and thirst no more; the sun will not strike them, nor any scorching heat; for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their Shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (7:16,17)
"The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come.' And let everyone who hears say, 'Come.' And let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift." (22:17)

And as far as god having mercy on folk, if they will turn. The bible in revelations shows that they will not.

It does?

Even so, how can anyone, spiritually thirsty and faced with a cup of perfectly satiating water, turn it down? When we are faced with absolute truth -- absolute love -- absolute mercy, will we be able to resist the gift that is offered? I trust not, for all souls long to return home, as the tale of the prodigal shows us.

Rev 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him


Revelations 16:10
Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Well, that certainly doesn't look like the end, to me. We've got 6 chapters to go. At the end is "all who will come, come." God's wrath is, yet again, turned aside after all.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And if a non-repentant murderer or rapist believes in Christ? Seriously, I would love to see some biblical support for the notion that a "believer" can live any way he wishes and still end up in Heaven and that someone like Gandhi (who obviously acknowledged the existance of Jesus Christ but did not believe that Jesus Christ was his Savior) is going to end up condemned to an eternity in Hell.

I hope you realize, Zhakir, that not all Christians think this way.

Katz, I believe we've tried to go down this road before and will not agree. Here is the Biblical support.

And I hope you realize, Zhakir, that most Christians believe whatever they want whether it is backed by Scripture or not.

 

[sojourner]

To be IN christ you had to be put in him on the cross, so that his life could permiate you.

Did you? Or do you eat his flesh and drink his blood in the Eucharist? Or do you welcome the unwelcome guest and worship the unlikely king?

being alive in Christ means that, at some point, He changed you. He set you free, raised you from spiritual death, and set you on the stright and narrow path of life, and discipleship.

Since, in Christ, all are made alive, I'd say that, at some point (the Incarnation leaps to mind), Christ changed humanity, set us free, raised us from spiritual death. When we recognize that new life, we can embrace it. But we do not initiate it. God does.

but life in Christ is between the Christian, and Christ Jesus. and it's a life and a relationship with allows one to love, serve, minister to, and reach out to others in a new and Godly way.

And that relationship happens when we find Christ in the spaces between we "elect" and the outcast.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Who does one love? One's neighbor. Community. Relationship. To whom are we to minister? To ourselves? Or to the hungry, the thirsty, the outcast? Community. Relationship. The relationship is communal -- not individual. Where do we see Jesus? In the spaces between us. Where two or three are gathered... not one.

Yes, there is a sense of the individual, as the individuals make up the Body, just as cells make up our own bodies. But it is the whole Body -- not the individual cells -- that is born again. Remember, baptism is a communal -- not an individual thing. In fact, sacraments are always communal in nature -- as is worship.

Our responsibility is to the community -- not to ourselves.

Correct about the cells, and just as some of our cells die on our body, so will some humans fall away from the true body.

 

[sojourner]

I felt the need to distinguish exactly who Christ forgave and died for. I don't think the Bible teaches that he forgave everyone or died for everyone. Quite the contrary, I believe Christ came to save the elect of God.

Why do you feel such a need to exclude? Jesus certainly didn't. Your statement is wonderful for those who are the "elect." But what about the unrighteous? What about the sinner? What about the outcast? Jesus said that the well have no need of a physician, but the sick -- and that's who he came for -- the sick.

We do not -- indeed cannot -- approach God. God approaches us. That's the theology present in the Incarnation -- and it's the heart of the gospel message. We could not purify ourselves, so God became dirt for us. (see the parable of the leaven).

And who did God approach? The clean? No. He approached the dirty.

Part of the gospel message is its parabolic nature. it turns our systems on their heads. It's not the elect who Christ came for, but the unelect.

 

[Heneni]

Well, that certainly doesn't look like the end, to me. We've got 6 chapters to go. At the end is "all who will come, come." God's wrath is, yet again, turned aside after all.

That would be wrong sojourner because with the seve plagues the wrath of god is completed. And as i posted before they DID not repent.

Revelations 15:1

151I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed

And from scripture it is clear that they did not repent during the time when the wrath is completed! There is no indication that the wrath can be averted and there is no indication that they repent during the wrath, so to think that the wrath can be avoided is not scriptural. The wrath of god is the pouring out of the bowls the wrath that mankind has been storing up for themselves.

There is no indication the the 6 chapters afterwards that there is any sign of repentance. No mercy cause there is no repentance.

 

[sojourner]

Michael ~

excellent point. Jesus' death on the cross only means something if you believe in and understand it's great meaning for you personally. and the Bible is also clear that we are called to Jesus by the Father, and chosen out of the world to follow Him by the Lord Himself. not everyone is chosen, but those who are have the responsibility not just to believe in but to actively and thankfully live for the Saviour. and if you love and know Him, you will care for those around you, with His love.

Again, isn't it wonderful to circle the wagons around the sweet, baby Jesus and not let anyone soil him!

What does the cross mean for those in the community that we insist on hanging? Such as homosexuals and other people whom we choose to exclude? Does the cross have meaning for them? What do you think it might be? A meaning of salvation, or a meaning of condemnation?

How wonderful that we've been chosen! "Thank you, God, that I am not like that sinner! I tithe. I pray. I follow the law."

And yet Jesus applauds the sinner who prays, "I am not the elect. I am not worthy -- but only say the word, and I will be healed." (Hint: the "word" was "Jesus" and it has been spoken. The outcasts have been healed.)

 

[sojourner]

Correct about the cells, and just as some of our cells die on our body, so will some humans fall away from the true body.

Not so, according to the Bible. God's mercies are new every morning. If the Body is perfectly alive and constantly made new, it will have no need to drop "unneeded" cells, because those cells will be constantly renewed.

 

[sojourner]

That would be wrong sojourner because with the seve plagues the wrath of god is completed. And as i posted before they DID not repent.

Revelations 15:1

151I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed

And from scripture it is clear that they did not repent during the time when the wrath is completed! There is no indication that the wrath can be averted and there is no indication that they repent during the wrath, so to think that the wrath can be avoided is not scriptural. The wrath of god is the pouring out of the bowls the wrath that mankind has been storing up for themselves.

There is no indication the the 6 chapters afterwards that there is any sign of repentance. No mercy cause there is no repentance.

Neither is there any indication that there is a time frame for repentance. Why should it be necessary to limit God's mercy to a time frame? God's mercy is everlasting, as the Bible says.