Diocese says it must end all state-funded adoption, foster services

[Draka]

angelous evangelous...if the church is 'sick' in your eyes they should not be supporting any fostering or adoption at all. You cannot have it both ways.

It is great in fairy land with all this adult reasoning. What you forget is many children are not taught to love gays and can be cruel at school as can the community. Do not foget some of these kids get to eventually go home to likely a poor unemployed parent, not a balanced professional.

Out of desperation and a lack of carers, all applicants would need to be considered, of course. Foster care or adoption by a gay couple would likely bring better outcomes than growing up in an institution. Gays are helpful in caring for children that have sexual identity issues, but children are better raised in normal households or even single parent households in preference, re adresssing the childs needs as a priority.

Gay couples should go meet their needs to play happy families with pets. I support the churches stance here and their charities, despite the Churches shamefull history and the minority of sickos still within. It is about time the church followed the teaching of the bible rather than giving priority to public popularity.

In response to what's in red...why do you think that some kids are not taught that? Why do some kids think it's ok to bully gays or children of gays? Their parents. Parents like CC who would teach their children that being gay is something wrong. Something to be ashamed of. Something evil. Kids learn their most basic stances when they are very young from who? their parents. If their parents are homophobic gay haters who believe them to be evil and deviants, how to you think the children will be instructed to believe? It's not on the children who bully or tease, it's on the parents for not teaching their children respect and acceptance.

 

[waitasec]

In response to what's in red...why do you think that some kids are not taught that? Why do some kids think it's ok to bully gays or children of gays? Their parents. Parents like CC who would teach their children that being gay is something wrong. Something to be ashamed of. Something evil. Kids learn their most basic stances when they are very young from who? their parents. If their parents are homophobic gay haters who believe them to be evil and deviants, how to you think the children will be instructed to believe? It's not on the children who bully or tease, it's on the parents for not teaching their children respect and acceptance.

exactly...
religion has a tendency to perpetuate old cheese... and one day this old cheese is going to get so nasty and stinky no one will ever want to touch it, much less go near it.

 

[waitasec]

I see that you've decided not to address my reply which pointed out that some the perspective of the person being discriminated against the distinction between objection and hate is largely irrelevent because the result is the same. You can sanitise the language of your discrimination all you want but it remains discrimination.

I fully understand the concepts of right and wrong which is why I am against religiously inspired and hence irrational discimination against groups on the basis of arbitrary and superstitious beliefs.

You don't even realise how condencending and disguisting your 'charity' towards homosexuals is. Homosexuals are not in need of charity and pity because there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual.

Infact if anyone should be restricted from caring for children its the homophobic Catholics who preach intolerance should be on the list, and indeed when it comes to fostering in the UK a Christian homophobic couple have been taken off a councils list of foster parents because of their religiously inspired interolence.

Discrimination is justified by being part of a religious belief system despite your views otherwise.

:bow: :clap: :yes::cigar:


:beach:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

angelous evangelous...if the church is 'sick' in your eyes they should not be supporting any fostering or adoption at all. You cannot have it both ways.

It is great in fairy land with all this adult reasoning. What you forget is many children are not taught to love gays and can be cruel at school as can the community. Do not foget some of these kids get to eventually go home to likely a poor unemployed parent, not a balanced professional.

Out of desperation and a lack of carers, all applicants would need to be considered, of course. Foster care or adoption by a gay couple would likely bring better outcomes than growing up in an institution. Gays are helpful in caring for children that have sexual identity issues, but children are better raised in normal households or even single parent households in preference, re adresssing the childs needs as a priority.

Gay couples should go meet their needs to play happy families with pets. I support the churches stance here and their charities, despite the Churches shamefull history and the minority of sickos still within. It is about time the church followed the teaching of the bible rather than giving priority to public popularity.

This is more than a little crass.

 

[waitasec]

I tell you guys what: Take a gander at this video, and tell me if this is not homosexuals perverting children into doing offensive things:

[youtube]Lop4TokXmkU[/youtube]
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lop4TokXmkU&feature=player_embedded

You'll have to go to the address. I could not allow the video player to post in good conscience.

The producers of this video should be jailed for child abuse.

:biglaugh:
i just bought a t-shirt...
thanks for the link


you can say it..
gay gay gay gay gay gay

 

[Father Heathen]

The premise of your question is false: Two gay people practising un-natural and sinful acts, and exposing a child to them, is not a "loving and devoted family", okay?

Catholicism poses a far, far greater threat to a child's wellbeing than being exposed to homosexuality ever could. It is your primitive superstitions and dogma that have proven to be harmful and unhealthy, and they have no place in the modern world.
Also, anyone who, for moral guidance, replies upon an institution that has a long history of raping children and covering it up has neither integrity nor credibility.

 

[Draka]

Catholicism poses a far, far greater threat to a child's wellbeing than being exposed to homosexuality ever could. It is your primitive superstitions and dogma that have proven to be harmful and unhealthy, and they have no place in the modern world.
Also, anyone who, for moral guidance, replies upon an institution that has a long history of raping children and covering it up has neither integrity nor credibility.

I do have to disagree with that. SOME forms of Catholicism. Just like SOME forms of many religions pose a threat. Not all. Like I mentioned earlier, my mother's side of my family is a big friendly Catholic bunch. My grandmother and grandfather were both quite Catholic and both very friendly, open, down-to-earth types. They didn't judge. My mother was raised in that big Catholic family and she raised me...to be open-minded and accepting and to treat everyone equally and fairly. My mom's side of the family has always been much more friendly and open and accepting of others than my father's side, which were certainly not Catholic. Not saying my dad's side is bad at all, but certainly more...um..."traditional" in thinking you could say.

So I could never say that Catholicism, in general, poses a threat to children...as it was my mother and my mother's side of my family that always had the biggest impact on me...and I think I turned out pretty darn good if I do say so myself.

 

[Father Heathen]

I do have to disagree with that. SOME forms of Catholicism. Just like SOME forms of many religions pose a threat. Not all. Like I mentioned earlier, my mother's side of my family is a big friendly Catholic bunch. My grandmother and grandfather were both quite Catholic and both very friendly, open, down-to-earth types. They didn't judge. My mother was raised in that big Catholic family and she raised me...to be open-minded and accepting and to treat everyone equally and fairly. My mom's side of the family has always been much more friendly and open and accepting of others than my father's side, which were certainly not Catholic. Not saying my dad's side is bad at all, but certainly more...um..."traditional" in thinking you could say.

So I could never say that Catholicism, in general, poses a threat to children...as it was my mother and my mother's side of my family that always had the biggest impact on me...and I think I turned out pretty darn good if I do say so myself.

Of course there are many who despite their religion are wonder people. My own mother is a sunday school teacher, she is a good and loving person, but that doesn't give her religion, one that promotes misogyny, homophobia, bigotry and inequality, a pass.

As for different "forms of catholicism", it all leads up to the Pope, doesn't it? Him and that silly hat of his.

 

[Draka]

Of course there are many who despite their religion are wonder people. My own mother is a sunday school teacher, she is a good and loving person, but that doesn't give her religion, one that promotes misogyny, homophobia, bigotry and inequality, a pass.

It's not religion we have to give a pass to, it's what human beings do with it. It's how human beings write it, create it, interpret it. If different groups of people interpret the same religion differently, then who among them is to decide who has it right or wrong? It's what people do with it that matters isn't it? That being the case, then to say that Catholicism is something bad fails as Catholicism is obviously something different to different people. And to some people, for some people, it could be a good thing.

I don't want to side-track the thread much. Just not a big proponent of mass stereotyping or general judgments is all.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's not religion we have to give a pass to, it's what human beings do with it. It's how human beings write it, create it, interpret it. If different groups of people interpret the same religion differently, then who among them is to decide who has it right or wrong? It's what people do with it that matters isn't it? That being the case, then to say that Catholicism is something bad fails as Catholicism is obviously something different to different people. And to some people, for some people, it could be a good thing.

I don't want to side-track the thread much. Just not a big proponent of mass stereotyping or general judgments is all.

So just because some people might be lax and lenient with certain sets of beliefs makes it's improper to subject those sets of beliefs to critique and scrutiny?

 

[Draka]

So just because some people might be lax and lenient with certain sets of beliefs makes it's improper to subject those sets of beliefs to critique and scrutiny?

No, it makes it improper to generalize. You said:

Catholicism poses a far, far greater threat to a child's wellbeing than being exposed to homosexuality ever could. It is your primitive superstitions and dogma that have proven to be harmful and unhealthy, and they have no place in the modern world.
Also, anyone who, for moral guidance, replies upon an institution that has a long history of raping children and covering it up has neither integrity nor credibility.

This basically says that Catholicism, in general, poses a threat to children. That Catholics, in general, have no integrity or credibility. What you said was a mass generalization. It was a faulty assumption that basically claimed something about a lot of people that are good parents, good people, and don't deserve to be insulted just because you don't like their religion.

You can criticize scripture, you can criticize a belief, but to mass judge people as a whole because of your opinions of certain beliefs they may or may not hold goes above and beyond mere criticism and analysis, it becomes slanderous and, inevitably, wrong.

Would it be fair to say that atheists are not fit to be parents because they are cruel to theists and mock their intelligence and that it teaches their children to mock people who believe differently than then...just because SOME atheists do that? No. Is it fair to say that Catholics pose a threat to children based merely on the fact that SOME Catholics may take their beliefs too far? No. Is it fair to say that all Muslims are terrorists because SOME Muslims are? No. Generalizations don't work with religion because religion is what PEOPLE make it. And since people differ...the religions differ for those people.

 

[kepha31]

No, it makes it improper to generalize. You said:

This basically says that Catholicism, in general, poses a threat to children. That Catholics, in general, have no integrity or credibility. What you said was a mass generalization. It was a faulty assumption that basically claimed something about a lot of people that are good parents, good people, and don't deserve to be insulted just because you don't like their religion.

You can criticize scripture, you can criticize a belief, but to mass judge people as a whole because of your opinions of certain beliefs they may or may not hold goes above and beyond mere criticism and analysis, it becomes slanderous and, inevitably, wrong.

I would use the word "bigotry".

Would it be fair to say that atheists are not fit to be parents because they are cruel to theists and mock their intelligence and that it teaches their children to mock people who believe differently than then...just because SOME atheists do that? No. Is it fair to say that Catholics pose a threat to children based merely on the fact that SOME Catholics may take their beliefs too far? No. Is it fair to say that all Muslims are terrorists because SOME Muslims are? No. Generalizations don't work with religion because religion is what PEOPLE make it. And since people differ...the religions differ for those people.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Draka. In reference to an earlier post, there is nothing wrong with being gay. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. The problem is in doing gay things. Furthermore the Catholic Church has the most compassionate view towards homosexuality than any church I know of. The gay lifestyle has proven to be deadly. I can support this fact with medical journals. (when I attain the 15 post requirement) Go to couragerc.org and see the ministry that the Church has available for homosexuals. The "gay hating Catholic Church" is just forum flatulence. The real issue here is the right of the Church to uphold her teachings on marraige. The foundation of civilization is the love between a man and a woman, and the Church has a much bigger picture of humanity than the critics do. Failing children over dogma is a straw man.

The Church is not anti-gay. It's the pathetically high suicide rates, addictions, and diseases that predominate the gay landscape that the Church is opposed to. Mother Teresa founded the first AIDS hospice in New York City.

Children have a right to a mommy and a daddy. The sexes are different. Because gender is a real phenomenon, it should come as no surprise that men and women parent differently. Men and women bring different, complementary skills to childrearing. Men are more likely to play expansively with their children than to do mundane care taking; women tend to be more practical. Mothers tend to be more responsive to their child's immediate needs, while fathers tend to be more firm, more oriented to abstract standards of justice (right and wrong). Kids need both.*

*R. Green et al., "Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparison With Solo Parent Heterosexual Mothers and Their Children," Archives of Sexual Behavior 15 (1986): 167-83;
P. A. Belcastro et al., "A Review of Data Based Studies Addressing the Effects of Homosexual Parenting on Children's Sexual and Social Functioning," Journal of Divorce and Remarriage 20 (1993): 105-22;
B. Hoeffer, "Lesbian and Heterosexual Single Mothers: Influence of Their Child's Acquisition of Sex-Role Traits and Behavior," (dissertation, University of California),
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, 1979; D. L. Puryear, "Familial Experiences: A Comparison Between Children of Lesbian Mothers and the Children of Heterosexual Mothers," (Dissertation, University of California),
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, 1983; J. D. Kunin, "Predictors of Psychosocial and Behavioral Adjustment of Children: A Study Comparing Children Raised by Lesbian Parents to Children Raised by Heterosexual Parents," Dissertation Abstracts International, 59 (1998): (6-B), 3094;
G. A. Javaid, "The Children of Homosexual and Heterosexual Single Mothers," Child Psychiatry and Human Development 23 (1993): 235-48;
K. Lewis, "The Children of Lesbians: Their Point of View," Social Work 23 (1980): 198-203

Mothers tend to emphasize the emotional security of their children, while fathers tend to stress competition and risk taking. Mothers tend to seek the immediate well-being of the child, while fathers tend to foster long-term autonomy and independence.
Popenoe, op. cit., 139-63.

Children need both parents, because they learn different lessons from each. Neither fathers nor mothers are expendable. The presence of a father is critical to a male child's learning self-control and appropriate male behavior, especially learning to respect women. Similarly, the presence of a father is vital for a female child's self-respect and eventual development of a healthy adult sexuality.
P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," 757-66;

Children need mothers just as much. The presence of both parents seems to be necessary for ideally balanced emotional and mental development.
Put in technical psychological jargon, the social science evidence suggests that women teach children communion (in English, that means the drive toward inclusion, connectedness, and relationship) and that men teach children agency (the drive toward independence, individuality, and self-fulfillment). Further, children of both sexes appear to learn self-control and responsibility primarily from their father.
Ibid.

They fail to learn them when he's not involved in their lives. Our national epidemic of fatherlessness has spawned an epidemic of antisocial children.
Marriage, for all these reasons, is a major public health issue and not just a private affair. Marriages that are exclusive, permanent, unconditional, and life-giving contribute much to public health and longevity; marriages that fail any of these criteria and end in divorce create an enormous social, emotional, and health care burden for the couple, their children, and society.

P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," 757-66; P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents: A Comparative Forensic Study of Character and Harms to Children" Psychological Reports 82 (1998): 1155-91.
Adopting children to gay couples is child abuse as far as I am concerned, and that staterment is supported by secular, non-religious journals.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Adopting children to gay couples is child abuse as far as I am concerned, and that staterment is supported by secular, non-religious journals.

And he thinks the Catholic Church is not bigoted or dogmatic...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would use the word "bigotry".


Thanks for the vote of confidence, Draka. In reference to an earlier post, there is nothing wrong with being gay. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. The problem is in doing gay things.

"I don't hate what you are; I only hate any expression of what you are."

It's not really any better.

Furthermore the Catholic Church has the most compassionate view towards homosexuality than any church I know of.

You're joking, right?

The real issue here is the right of the Church to uphold her teachings on marraige.

No, it's not.

Nobody's stopping the Catholic Church from preaching whatever hateful rhetoric it wants. The real issue is that a secular government shouldn't be made to support it.

Children have a right to a mommy and a daddy. The sexes are different. Because gender is a real phenomenon, it should come as no surprise that men and women parent differently. Men and women bring different, complementary skills to childrearing. Men are more likely to play expansively with their children than to do mundane care taking; women tend to be more practical. Mothers tend to be more responsive to their child's immediate needs, while fathers tend to be more firm, more oriented to abstract standards of justice (right and wrong). Kids need both.

Gender stereotypes die hard, apparently.

However, any talk about some fictitious "right to a mommy AND a daddy" is a bit of a red herring when we're trying to decide whether to place a ward of the state (i.e. a child with no mommy or daddy... no fit one, anyhow) with a same-sex couple. There's no "a mommy AND a daddy" option in that equation, so your point, if it were correct (which it isn't), is entirely irrelevant.

Adopting children to gay couples is child abuse as far as I am concerned, and that staterment is supported by secular, non-religious journals.

Baloney. Are you so blinded by hate that you would deny a child a loving home to satisfy your religious predilections? That's child abuse, IMO.

 

[Father Heathen]

See what I mean?

 

[ninerbuff]

I understand that you can't fathom our belief in tradtional values, or the concepts of right & wrong. We do not hate homosexuals - in fact the Catechism calls us to treat them with charity. But at the same time we cannot place children in dens of mortal sin.

I can. Being a former catholic with the majority of my family still being catholic here in the US and Philippines, I am finding that many more catholics who aren't as staunch, especially the younger generation, are much more accepting of homosexuality. My older brother is a homosexual and lives with my parents since he doesn't make enough money to live on his own. Should they kick him out because he may cause "mortal sin" in the house?

 

[Draka]

I can. Being a former catholic with the majority of my family still being catholic here in the US and Philippines, I am finding that many more catholics who aren't as staunch, especially the younger generation, are much more accepting of homosexuality. My older brother is a homosexual and lives with my parents since he doesn't make enough money to live on his own. Should they kick him out because he may cause "mortal sin" in the house?

See, that's the experience I have had with Catholics I've actually known in person. Much nicer and accepting than the ones online. It seems the ones that come to places like this do so because they have an ax to grind. Like I said before, I'm glad my overall impression of Catholics was formed before I came here, or else I might think much like Father Heathen. Going by people like CatholicCrusader and Kepha is an awful way to get an impression of Catholics. At least in my opinion.

 

[kepha31]

And he thinks the Catholic Church is not bigoted or dogmatic...

Perhaps you mean the non-religous journals that I quoted to support my opinion. They must be bigotted and dogmatic. So where does a mindless flaming zinger leave you?

 

[Pegg]

Ah Catholics, fighting for the right to discriminate against whatever abritrary group their religion teaches them to hate. I wonder how long it will take for Catholic organisations like this to realise that its not a good thing to discriminate against people or at least that religious organisations aren't above the laws which apply to everyone else.

Probably a long time.

there is such a thing as freedom of conscience

It is against human rights to force someone to do something that runs contrary to their own conscience.

I applaud the church's stance. Its much better then caving in and acting against their consciences.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Perhaps you mean the non-religous journals that I quoted to support my opinion. They must be bigotted and dogmatic. So where does a mindless flaming zinger leave you?

Non-religious? You call a book by Kirk Cameron non-religious?

Half of your sources are 30 years old. Homosexuality had just been removed from the DSM only a few years prior. I would imagine being a child of a lesbian couple in 1979 would indeed be negative considering the bigotry they would've had to endure.