Disgruntled former SS teacher

[MaterSammichMan]

It is from a root word however, that means in Hebrew "to become very red"

Wouldn't that be "anger" then, not "jealousy", as in Moses being red with anger after leaving Pharoah's presence?

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Some things are bugging me. Maybe I've learned too much to be comfortable teaching the standard "Christian" beliefs. I'll ask one question at a time.

Question-
If God is "Good", then how can He be called a "Jealous" God in the Hebrew Bible? I would consider being jealous to be a bad trait.

When God says he is a jealous God he is referring to that he doesn't take worshiping of other gods lightly and that it is a serious sin and you'll will receive punishment for it.

 

[MaterSammichMan]

Kathryn,
Didn't you exchange the words "jealous" from "zealous"? Here's your post...

In fact, both the Old and New Testament words for jealousy are also translated “zeal.” Being jealous and being zealous are essentially the same thing in the Bible. God is zealous—eager about protecting what is precious to Him.

Isn't that your post?

 

[MaterSammichMan]

Well, my impression was that the op wished to discuss the nature/ worthiness, not the existence of the Christian God. Perhaps I was wrong.

No. You are quite right. You're bloody well right.

 

[MaterSammichMan]

You must have done something wrong if your spouse is cheating on you. There's a good chance they're cheating because of your jealousy and insecurity.

Not necessarily. Some just need a belt. They have trouble keeping their pants on

 

[MaterSammichMan]

IMHO, it means that God chose a people to follow Him, and He will be angry if they worship other gods. The husband/wife relationship is often used in the Hebrew Bible for this, and Christians adopt this tradition as well (Christ is like a groom, the church is like a bride).

The loving, provisional relationship between God and His people is violated by the following of other gods.

GOOD POINT!!! If other "gods" (like Marduk, Molech, etc.) didn't exist, then God was being jealous of something that didn't even exist, yet an all-knowing God would know that, right??

 

[MaterSammichMan]

It's part of the covanent. God says - "I've chosen you for something special, but if you worship other gods, the deal's off."

WHY should it be an issue if "other gods" don't even exist?

 

[MaterSammichMan]

While we're on the "other gods" thing, that brings up yet another good question...If God ordered the Jews to kill every man, woman, child, unborn, and animal in many of the towns they overran on their way to Canaan because those lands worshiped "false gods", why in the heck didn't He have them start with the Egyptians who worshiped a "god" for every day of the year? (after all God's people can win any battle when God is for them, right?). Just doesn't make good sense to me. I think the Bible has been tampered with by men to suit their own needs...No, I KNOW it has and can prove it! 18 apocryphal books were contained in the canon from the time the canon was first assembled at the Council of Trent, and then removed in the 2nd print of the OLD KJV. Now which group do you think knew what should be in there better- those living at least within a couple of centuries of Christ' earthly visit, or those over a millenia removed?

 

[linwood]

WHY should it be an issue if "other gods" don't even exist?

Because other gods DID exist to the people who wrote the Old Testament.

Yahweh was just one god of many.
This is made obvious by a careful reading in context.

 

[MaterSammichMan]

Sadly it appears that this thread is going to end just as I thought. Ask a few really in-depth, serious questions and the supposedly "hard-core" Christians all disappear. It's a shame that they can't do a better job of defending the faith that they supposedly live by. Few Christians even know the history of the Biblical canon and how it became what it is today- tainted by men, and incomplete. That is so sad! What is worse, the modern Christian churches refuse to even consider the massive amount of additional content found at Nag-Hammadi (The Dead Sea scolls). I cannot support a faith that relies on cherry-picking scriptures to suit their own personal needs. They tell you that they live by both the OT and NT because Jesus said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it", and yet they DON'T live by the OT laws. The OT says to kill gays and adulterers (which incidentally, Jesus let an adulteress go free), for men not to cut their sideburns or beards, and for women to cover their heads. Is any of that in practice anymore? Not in very many churches- especially not the killing part. Jesus illustrated that the teachings of the Jews were in error, as was what is recorded in the OT when he said, "You have heard it said...but I tell you". His point was that the Jews had perverted and warped God's will, and He was correcting them, yet those very same OT teachings which He corrected remained in the OT text "as-is".

 

[MaterSammichMan]

Here is a scenario where jealousy is a good thing. Let's say that my kids are spending an exorbiant amount of time next door. I come home and they are next door playing games, watching movies every day. Well I get jealous and I want to spend time with my own kids so I tell them I am going to play games and watch movies with them too. So they come home and we have a great time together spending time as a family.

What you described isn't jealousy, it's bribery via coercion; "If you come home we'll play games and watch movies". True, you may be acting out of a desire to be with your little loved ones, but that is not jealousy. Manipulation Yes, Jealousy No. Manipulation is, "I'll do this if for you if you do this for me".
Jealousy is NEVER a good thing!

 

[MaterSammichMan]

I have many more questions.
If, as is true in modern Christian belief, you must "call on the name of Jesus Christ and accept Him as your Lord and Savior to be saved", tell me- Jesus life on earth ended around 27AD, yet Christianity was not brought to the U.S. until well after 1,000AD.
I have American Indian ancestors, and have to believe that they sought "God" and weren't the "Heathens" that the early visitors to Americas thought they were. They worshiped the Great Spirit and took much better care of the land and creatures, with much more respect than "modern" man.
My question to you is, since they lived AFTER Jesus' earthly death, but knew nothing of calling on His name for salvation, then by current Christian beliefs they are condemned to Hell for their ignorance, just because of their geographical location.
There is no way in good conscience that I can agree with that view.

Interesting that not one single Christian wanted to weigh in on this. Are my ancestors in Hell? If they say "No" then they'd be disagreeing with the NT. If they said "Yes" then they're saying God would condemn someone to Hell for ignorance.

 

[Kathryn]

Interesting that not one single Christian wanted to weigh in on this. Are my ancestors in Hell? If they say "No" then they'd be disagreeing with the NT. If they said "Yes" then they're saying God would condemn someone to Hell for ignorance.

I believe that God is infinitely more wise and infinitely more holy than we can comprehend. I believe that the state of one's soul, as well as it's eternal destination, is an extremely intimate matter that is between God and each individual.

If more people would focus on their own relationship with God, rather than trying to determine the fate of other people's souls, the world would be a better place.

That goes for non Christians as well as Christians.

 

[linwood]

Jealousy is NEVER a good thing!

I disagree.

A rational jealousy is often a form of self protection.

if there is a reason to be jealous that is.

 

[MaterSammichMan]

I believe that God is infinitely more wise and infinitely more holy than we can comprehend. I believe that the state of one's soul, as well as it's eternal destination, is an extremely intimate matter that is between God and each individual.

If more people would focus on their own relationship with God, rather than trying to determine the fate of other people's souls, the world would be a better place.

That goes for non Christians as well as Christians.

I'll give you credit Kathryn, you do a great job of dancing around questions about facts taken directly from the Bible, without ever addressing them. Very, very manipulative, but I know plenty of master manipulators and can pick up on that action in a heartbeat. You have no idea how to address the statements and questions, so you give your own testimony instead. Why wouldn't one be concerned about the fate of their ancestors? Aren't you concerned about the fate of the souls of those you love? It is a legitimate question I asked about my ancestors. If someone at Church asks you the same question, what are you going to do...dance? The fact is you don't address the questions I've asked because you can't.

 

[MaterSammichMan]

I disagree.

A rational jealousy is often a form of self protection.

if there is a reason to be jealous that is.

LOL! I've never heard of "rational jealousy"!

 

[LyricalDutchess]

Im really late to the party, lol but i want to answer your first question. Many people get jealousy and envy confused. They are two different things. Envy is coveting what another has. Wanting what belongs to another. Whereas jealous is being upset with another taking what is yours, or trying to. See God sees us as His children. And when satan takes one away from Him, He is sadden and wants His child back.

 

[MaterSammichMan]

Wanting to get something back that walks away from you is not love, that's possessiveness.
If you love someone, let them live free. If they come back to you of their own volition, they love you; if not, they don't. Dragging them back kicking and screaming, or punishing them because they chose to leave you isn't love.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Wow this is a nice topic. Where to start......

I don't suffer from jealousy. Significant others who do don't last long with me. I don't like being treated like property.

I don't suffer from jealousy either. If you love yourself and have confidence in yourself, you will not feel jealousy. You must simply do what you have to do. When you feel jealousy, before you do anything else, it is a time for self-reflection so you can move past it and get to the root of the problem. That is the more spiritually mature thing to do IMO. The problem is that people justify their jealousy or zealously, whatever you want to call it. Apparently, God feels justified so....

So if you go out with another person, your significant other shouldn't be jealous? They should just yawn and say ho hum? That doesn't show they care about you. Jealousy can be good or bad, depending on the context.

Jealousy is never good. Jealousy is a justification for acting from a point of insecurity, anger, sadness, or whatever the root issue is.

I understand where you are coming from though. I actually had an ex get angry at me once for not showing signs of jealousy. He could not understand, how I could still love someone who was pursuing, or talking about pursuing, another. He could not understand how I could understand how someone can be attracted to another with no love for them, and act on it while not loving or wanting them long term. He could not understand why I was so calm. He could not understand that I still loved him and I was not angry with him. He could not understand my desire for comprise. He thought I was lying and that I was actually cheating on him. This is what jealousy does. It shuts the mind down like a feeding parasite shuts an organism down.

No, it's betrayal to THEM. Jealousy doesn't enter into it. It's about broken promises and abused trust, not ownership.

Exactly. It should roll off your back. You do what you have to do. You have to understand that other living creatures do not naturally belong to you, including your spouse and children. I know that is a highly debatable statement, but whatever. I'll polish that thought as I continue to think on it.

Jealousy does not reflect caring. Jealousy reflects perceived ownership.

Yeppers

Yes and if you study history, you'll see the Israelities originally had a Monist view were they viewed all these deities as being one with God. They later turned toward Monotheism, and that influenced the bias of the Bible, since most of the Tanak was not written until the pre-Babylonian exile period or later. The Bible also says Moses made a bronze serpent on a pole and commanded the people to look to it for life, but later when Israel's view of God started to shift, Hezekiah cut down Nahushtan's altar and broke the bronze serpent.

That's interesting, makes me think of the idea that the universe's creator was chaos.

Storm it isn't that it is inaccurate, it is just that we can go back to the original Hebrew as I did above, and see what the translators used to decide on using the word jealous.

So, for conversation does the above definition, conclude you to only think jealous? If so, than maybe it is a proper enough term, then to others it might not be. It is from a root word however, that means in Hebrew "to become very red"

If not anger or jealousy what else would becoming red imply? Embarrassment? Shame?

I doubt such a prideful God would be caught red handed displaying those two emotions.

I speak neither Hebrew nor Greek, but I did a little impromptu research. I am not vouching for the accuracy of this research as it was done on the internet, so you folks can take it for what it is worth . . . not a great deal.

But what I found out is that the term "jealous" when used to refer to God is actually from the Greek word, Zel'os, which is the basis of the English word "zealous", and the word actually refers more to zeal and ardor, an energetic love/appreciation for something.

I could fly with that view (an energetic love/appreciation for something), if the actions matched the statement. Actions speak louder than words, and the God of the Bible does not act on his "zealousy/jealousy" in a healthy way that displays "energetic love or appreciation." Unless you are one of the twisted **** tards that thinks self-rightous baby killing is a display of love when "justified."

Here is a scenario where jealousy is a good thing. Let's say that my kids are spending an exorbiant amount of time next door. I come home and they are next door playing games, watching movies every day. Well I get jealous and I want to spend time with my own kids so I tell them I am going to play games and watch movies with them too. So they come home and we have a great time together spending time as a family.

I don't think that it's a character flaw.

It's part of the covanent. God says - "I've chosen you for something special, but if you worship other gods, the deal's off."

But we need to see it from the reverse. The Jews basically worshipped other gods in the entire Hebrew Bible, with prophets continually calling the Jews back to their God, interpreting horrible historical events to the wrath of God, saying that all Israel must repent and worship their God.

So if this is the case, God chooses people against their will then? I remember no incident in my life were God approached me and informed me that He chose me and if I did not comply he was going to burn me. It seems to me that people have taken over that particular role in hopes of absorbing such power. It's like an "oven-ready all-powerful dictator" kit.

Because other gods DID exist to the people who wrote the Old Testament.

Yahweh was just one god of many.
This is made obvious by a careful reading in context.

Thank you for that point.

Sadly it appears that this thread is going to end just as I thought. Ask a few really in-depth, serious questions and the supposedly "hard-core" Christians all disappear. It's a shame that they can't do a better job of defending the faith that they supposedly live by. Few Christians even know the history of the Biblical canon and how it became what it is today- tainted by men, and incomplete. That is so sad! What is worse, the modern Christian churches refuse to even consider the massive amount of additional content found at Nag-Hammadi (The Dead Sea scolls). I cannot support a faith that relies on cherry-picking scriptures to suit their own personal needs. They tell you that they live by both the OT and NT because Jesus said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it", and yet they DON'T live by the OT laws. The OT says to kill gays and adulterers (which incidentally, Jesus let an adulteress go free), for men not to cut their sideburns or beards, and for women to cover their heads. Is any of that in practice anymore? Not in very many churches- especially not the killing part. Jesus illustrated that the teachings of the Jews were in error, as was what is recorded in the OT when he said, "You have heard it said...but I tell you". His point was that the Jews had perverted and warped God's will, and He was correcting them, yet those very same OT teachings which He corrected remained in the OT text "as-is".

I am so sorry that these people have affected you so. If you keep looking you will begin to find others not like that, and hopefully peace and answers to your personal questions. I have found that these people you speak of seem to be reflections of their God on a smaller scale. That is how they justify their pitiful character. You will find that many groups believe in supposedly the same God, but they view his character differently. It is interesting as hell to me.

What you described isn't jealousy, it's bribery via coercion; "If you come home we'll play games and watch movies". True, you may be acting out of a desire to be with your little loved ones, but that is not jealousy. Manipulation Yes, Jealousy No. Manipulation is, "I'll do this if for you if you do this for me".
Jealousy is NEVER a good thing!

It is manipulation. It is a relationship though. A relationship is a two way street. It requires attention and companionship. Forcing that attention through threat of retribution, coercion, manipulation, or bribery is unhealthy though. There are other ways to keep the gears in a relationship turning. The most immature of all manipulations would be the epic example of threatening to burn the one you love in hell for all eternity.

Wanting to get something back that walks away from you is not love, that's possessiveness.
If you love someone, let them live free. If they come back to you of their own volition, they love you; if not, they don't. Dragging them back kicking and screaming, or punishing them because they chose to leave you isn't love.

This is very true. Although I'm sure you know how difficult and heart wrenching it is to do this. It requires some serious emotional control and backbone. I would love to say that this particular emotion you feel when you have to do this is the "red" in the face talked about, but once again, the actions speak louder than the words.

Any of us who have successfully done this and dealt with this emotion without any retribution against the one we love, is more of a God than the God of the Bible.

 

[Kathryn]

I'll give you credit Kathryn, you do a great job of dancing around questions about facts taken directly from the Bible, without ever addressing them. Very, very manipulative, but I know plenty of master manipulators and can pick up on that action in a heartbeat. You have no idea how to address the statements and questions, so you give your own testimony instead. Why wouldn't one be concerned about the fate of their ancestors? Aren't you concerned about the fate of the souls of those you love? It is a legitimate question I asked about my ancestors. If someone at Church asks you the same question, what are you going to do...dance? The fact is you don't address the questions I've asked because you can't.

I've got a suggestion for you:

If you truly want to discuss things with me, drop the sarcastic, condescending attitude.

If you just want to create an opportunity to feed an impulse to engage in inflammatory, pointless diatribe, you'll need to find someone else to bounce yourself off. I ain't your whippin' girl.

I've been answering your questions - just because you don't LIKE my answers doesn't negate their validity.

Do you want to continue a discussion with me, or does my criteria (mutual respect) kill your mood?