Disproving god with the laws of logic

[olla86]

I recently heard about TAG (transcendental argument for god), and it seems strange to me why christians would use this argument. Not only does TAG not prove god exists, but I find it to be strong proof that god CANNOT exist.

I believe the first law makes gods existence impossible. It is the law of identity, that something cannot be something and not something at the same time. These laws are absolute, and christians would claim they are the physical manifestation of gods mind. Now, in order for these laws to be absolute, they must be objective. So they are true regardless of personal opinion or whether or not any mind is there to judge them at all.

So the law of identity states that something cannot be something and not something, and this is the ABSOLUTE (this is important terminology) unchanging law which reflects the mind of an absolute unchanging being (god). This is the christian argument, and it is perfectly sound... until you take a little further.

Here is my reasoning:
If the laws are absolute, then god cannot be something and nothing either, making god subjective to the laws. If god is subjective to the laws then they are not apart of god. If god is not subjective to the laws then the laws are not absolute and the whole argument falls apart anyways. But, the laws are logically sound and seemingly impossible, indeed, something cannot be something it is not. A rock will always be a rock even under a different name or if there no one there to label a rock it will still be a rock. So the logic is absolute, which would mean god cannot be an absolute being and still exist.

I'm sure this argument won't get past the "language barrier" and we will spend the whole discussion defining the word "god" or something but when you strip it down to its simplest form the laws of logic leave little room for a god in my opinion.

you can find a good outline of TAG at the CARM website (it won't let me post a link so you will have to google it) if interested, it is too much for me to post here.

Your reasoning is persuasive! You rised very important philosophical question:yes:

 

[ProudAtheist122208]

MATTER CAN NEITHER BE CREATED OR DESTROYED

the christian argument is that god created himself which contradicts the proven scientific law stated above.but i argue that if i stare at my desk some god pencil isnt gonna create himself where im starin so how can the same be said for the one you call god

their other debate is that god has always been there he is infinant thats why he is god. but i argue if time is not infinate then how can god be. i also argue that god had to get here some how. the idea of god is both trivial and silly in my pint of view

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

MATTER CAN NEITHER BE CREATED OR DESTROYED

the christian argument is that god created himself which contradicts the proven scientific law stated above.but i argue that if i stare at my desk some god pencil isnt gonna create himself where im starin so how can the same be said for the one you call god

their other debate is that god has always been there he is infinant thats why he is god. but i argue if time is not infinate then how can god be. i also argue that god had to get here some how. the idea of god is both trivial and silly in my pint of view

Absurd, not to mention boring.

 

[DarkSun]

MATTER CAN NEITHER BE CREATED OR DESTROYED

the christian argument is that god created himself which contradicts the proven scientific law stated above.but i argue that if i stare at my desk some god pencil isnt gonna create himself where im starin so how can the same be said for the one you call god

their other debate is that god has always been there he is infinant thats why he is god. but i argue if time is not infinate then how can god be. i also argue that god had to get here some how. the idea of god is both trivial and silly in my pint of view

Perhaps there was no first cause.

 

[Thief]

Good point.....no cause (no reason)....
Who said God had to think about it?

Without a plan...and there cannot be a plan....then none of this is logical.
Why bother to create? when the void was perfect in it's uniformity.
Why bother to create Man? for conversation? when there is nothing He doesn't know.
Why allow pain and suffering? when He could be the source of relief.

But here we are.

You cannot logically disprove God.

Logic was not applied in the first place.

 

[freethinker44]

You cannot logically disprove God.

Logic was not applied in the first place.

I'm pretty sure I did disprove god. At least you haven't offered any kind real argument against mine. You just say something incoherent or unrelated and then claim god is above logic or something.

 

[Thief]

I don't think you actually read my last post.

 

[freethinker44]

So basically we exist so logic doesn't apply to god? That your argument or did I misunderstand? If I misunderstood please clarify.

 

[Archer]

freethinker44 please explain the truths in the Bible and the fact that science is only now finding out.

 

[rageoftyrael]

Archer, you are barking up the ignorant tree right now.

 

[freethinker44]

freethinker44 please explain the truths in the Bible and the fact that science is only now finding out.

Well, even though I don't have to since I have already proven god does not exist and you have said nothing reasonable to contradict me so far, let's explore some science in the bible.

We'll start from the begining, how about the firmament story. The bible says when earth was formed it was formed inside a giant dome (the firmament) and this dome is where all the stars are placed and is also where the sun rotates around us. Now if this isn't rediculous enough for you, let's take a look at where the story of the firmament comes from. The babylonians. Here the firmament also holds a huge ocean of water above it and when the doors and windows open(it just keeps getting better and better), the water falls through and thats how we get rain. But of couse scientists are only now realizing that this is true and all we learned about clouds and gravity is just a myth that the devil has created to fool us right? Incidently, Kent Hovind believes this firmament story as fact almost word for word how I just told it.

 

[Archer]

? My post or who the post was directed at?

 

[Archer]

In the beginning there was no universe, God spoke it into existence, science calls it a bang.

 

[freethinker44]

Ok but lets not change the subject, you still offered no argument for a firmament which starts at 1:14 I think in genesis. Oh yeah and also, god says the moon gives off its own light, hows that for scientific truth.

 

[Thief]

Hypocrites!!!!!
You claim logic unto yourselves...and then complain when others do better!

You can't apply logic to disprove God.
And faith...by definition...requires no proof.

Applying a tool to a task requires the proper tool.
You cannot take away faith by logic.

I might as well be reasoning with barking dogs!

But I like you guys anyway.
You give me so much opportunity!

 

[Archer]

Hypocrites!!!!!
You claim logic unto yourselves...and then complain when others do better!

You can't apply logic to disprove God.
And faith...by definition...requires no proof.

Applying a tool to a task requires the proper tool.
You cannot take away faith by logic.

I might as well be reasoning with barking dogs!

But I like you guys anyway.
You give me so much opportunity!

:clap Very good, I just joined this forum without doing enough looking at what goes on here my mistake. I never realized that people are so strongly stuck in their non belief that they will ignore certian irrefutable facts. I find it intriguing that if science says one thing and the Bible words it differently then there is a problem.

If I were to explain to a blind man what a city looked like and then asked him to draw it in color what would the picture look like?

Now, God reveled things to prophets and the passed it through the generations orally until scribes finally recorded it as best they could interpret it. Perhaps if the scribes had our accumulated knowledge they would have described it very differently.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In the beginning there was no universe, God spoke it into existence, science calls it a bang.

According to whose Torah?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Now God raveled things to prophets and ...

Clearly it is hard to unravel that which was raveled ...

 

[GiantHouseKey]

:clap Very good, I just joined this forum without doing enough looking at what goes on here my mistake. I never realized that people are so strongly stuck in their non belief that they will ignore certian irrefutable facts. I find it intriguing that if science says one thing and the Bible words it differently then there is a problem.

It sucks when your beliefs aren't unanimously accepted doesn't it. Did you expect everybody to agree with you when you joined here? That's not a mistake, that's just naive.

GhK.

 

[Archer]

I expected nothing! Moreover I expected discussion and universal understanding.

Why would one who does not believe be on a forum trying to convince those who do, that God is not?

Logic dictates that believers need some drugs to fight this mental illness because they surely are not in their right minds. Perhaps those arguing against God are just in denial else why argue with a retard?